{{{2/13/10 I am updating this thread - see page 3}}}
{{{2/17/10 results updated see page 5}}}
Well, the saga continues.
First I would like to thank all of the folks who have called to ask how the replacement engine installation is going. I have tried not to clog this great bulletin board with all my trials and tribulations. I have told several folks that this bus and I have a love/hate relationship. For the past few months it has been the latter. Every component I touch seems to delight in frustrating me and consuming huge amounts of my limited resources!!!!
If you are really bored, you can follow all of the gory details of this saga in the following threads:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=13609.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=13609.0)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12915 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12915)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12668 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12668)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12599.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12599.0)
OK, now I need some help in thinking my way through the my latest problem (low turbo boost). I just took the first drive around our subdivision (fairly big hills) and about the highest boost I saw on the SilverLeaf was 4.5 pounds (it should have maxed out at around 20-25 pounds). I think the RPM was high enough to get good boost and I was at full throttle.
I have pulled the cold side and the turbo spun very well. This was my "old" Series 60 turbo that had 54K on it. The turbo that came with the replacement engine had the bypass turbo, but the mechanism did not feel like it was working. If it makes any difference, I am using my "old" ECM.
The first thing that folks think about is fuel starvation and fuel filter issues. I use the FuelPro 382, which tells you if there is an issue (via the clear glass bowl). Along that line, I had to work to get the flow established to the filter when I first tried to fire up the engine, but it seems fine now. I can look at fuel flow rate on the SilverLeaf. Sitting in the shop, and stabbing the throttle shows a spike in the flow of about 5 GPM (no load). That would be flow into the engine and would not include the fuel bypassed back to the tank.
I have looked at the several silicone flexible connectors that connect all of the metal tubing to and from the charge air cooler. I did not see any obvious sources of pressure loss. If all else fails, I will make a couple of caps for that plumbing and test for leaks with compressed air. That will test the whole system including the charge air cooler.
So, what great ideas do you all have about the low boost?
In addition to the turbo boost problem, my AutoShift range shift solenoid is throwing a code. Thus I have gears 1-5, but not the top side. I don't think that is a huge issue.
However, all of these issues put the last nail in the coffin as far as taking the bus to the big Quartzsite bash. We are thinking about driving the service truck and staying in one of the two motels in town. Part of that decision will be based on some pretty major health issues going on our daughters families. Pat is not sure she can leave with all of that turmoil going on.
I'd check the charge air cooler and plumbing...I believe you can rotate the engine to get all the intake valves closed and then pressurized it as far back as you can (towards the air cleaner).
I've been wondering how you were doing with that project. Thanks for the update, as it is.
Jim bet its your ECM controlling the boost disconnet the turbo sensor and try that to see if the boost stays the same also the waste gate may be stuck open.
good luck
Dave, because of my crank hub adapter, it is not possible for me to bar the engine over very easily. I think putting a cap at the turbo connection and another at the intake manifold will test everything in the system that would leak.
Clifford, I was not clear about the turbo. It is a non-bypass turbo.
Jim
jim,
Under load it may be sucking the pipe from the air filter to the turbo closed or the filter itself. ???
Ed, good thought.
My plumbing is pretty robust in that area. Several short pieces of steel tubing connected by short rubber connectors designed for that application. The air cleaner is a truck type that would be hard to collapse. I might take a drive in the next day or two (may be a small snow storm tomorrow) without the air cleaner. My tattle tale typically shows some yellow bars, but it did not do that this time. That suggest to me that the engine is not calling for much air, but not sure why.
I saw some black smoke when I first took off, but that was only for a short distance. Tried to watch for that the rest of way, but I don't think there was much, if any.
Jim
I understand. The nice thing about doing it with the valves closed it that it checks valves and intake also.
Check and recheck all your charge air connections. You can install a test plugs and pressurize your charge air system to check for leaks.
Since you had problems with your other engine, I would remove the turbocharger and pull the turbine housing off to inspect the turbine wheel. If you have damage to the turbine wheel your boost will be down.
Guys I am not that great on a DDEC but Jim says he is not blowing black smoke so with what little I know about it the DDEC is calling for the right amount of air for the fuel ratio to the engine right or wrong.
If he had low turbo boost would not he have the 34 or 64 code flashing may be the wrong codes but one is for the circut and the other is for turbo speed lol forgot which is which.
good luck
Removed
Quote from: Now Just Dallas on January 14, 2010, 10:50:33 AM
DDEC won't allow you to have more boost than you actually need anyway. Unless you can put a load on the bus by climbing a hill or pulling a load, you may never see full boost.. that is if the engine is running right.
Right but Jim mentions in the beginning that their "swanky" ;) subdivision has HILLS ;D, that should put a decent load on it!
;D BK ;D
Jim you should be able to get boost with the brakes on in gear. Don't use enough power to damage the drive shaft or transmission. Do you have another turbo boost sensor that you could try?
Jack
Jim, I had the same problem it was a bad connection on the boost sensor that is mounted on the side of the intake manifold
Well, lets see if I can catch up.
With the hills in the subdivision, I can get quite a bit of boost normally. I don't think I can get full boost, but at least well into the teens.
There has been some discussion about the DDEC ECM controlling boost. From everything I can tell, the boost is not controlled by the ECM. The turbo boost sensor is an input to the control algorithm. Since it is a standard turbo (no waste gate), I don't see how it can be controlled. If the ECM does somehow control the turbo, I would love to have someone point out a reference so that I can relegate that information to my tired ole brain.
Now, let me talk about what I did today. I made two end caps (see photos) and put them into the system (please ignore the somewhat crude welding - I am still trying to perfect my TIG skills). They were located so that they would test everything between the turbo outlet and the intake manifold. I hooked up a pressure regulator set at 20 PSI. I found two areas where the silicone connecting sleeves were not sealing. One may have been leaking with the old engine and was not a major leak. However, I did find one that was emitting a "screaming" or whistling sound. It was a fairly substantial leak. It was a connection that I had to disconnect to remove/install the engine. I thought I had tightened it, but I must not have cinched it up all the way.
I did not get a chance to drive it today. I will do that tomorrow. My transmission problem will not allow the transmission to do the range shift, so I am limited to the bottom five gears. I think I will still be able to work the engine hard enough to see if I have more reasonable boost.
I don't know how much leakage it would take to knock the boost off. I guess I will find out tomorrow.
Jim
Jim,
We had this problem after our first rebuild.
Nothwithstanding the fact that we also have a Fuel Pro which might disclose flow problems, it turned out to be a fuel restriction -- the main supply line had collapsed internally. Replacing the line cured the problem. I discussed this in several posts in this archive:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_archive.html (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_archive.html)
You might hang a 5 gallon can of fuel with a #10 hose off the back and try it -- low cost way to check. Just remember the engine will blow through 5 gallons in a heartbeat if you don't also plumb the return to the same can.
Also, FWIW, our fuel flow tops out at around 20 GPH (not GPM). I'm guessing you meant to write 5 GPH, which sounds low to me, and might be more evidence for a fuel restriction. That said, I am not really familiar with the S60's rates.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Removed
Sean, I have an electric pump connected to my auxiliary tank and plumbed into the fuel filter (with valves). I can use that to test fuel flow if tomorrows test still shows low boost. You are correct, that is GPH! That was only bliping the throttle as opposed to having the engine under load.
Dallas, your explanation is what I thought happened with the boost and ECM.
Jim
Tommorrow...let's go for a test drive TONIGHT!
a 6v92TA Pumps about 62 gallons per hour at full load and max rpms (8v92 even more ??)
that's about gallon per minute
about 90% is returned to the fuel tank (spill rate for a D/D is very very high)
The rate you see on the SilverLeaf is a calculated COMSUMPTION rate based on injector open/close timings - very accurate but NOT a true flow rate
10 MPG @ 60 mph = 6 gph (consumption) @ 60 MPH
I can't speak to the 60 series but my 8V92 DDEC has a hose from the turbo to a sensor located next to the blower housing. When I took my bus in for a chassis dyno test, I was only making about 212 HP when it was supposed to be around 325 (the DDEC is set for 400HP). It turns out the hose was cracked and the sensor was not receiving the boost from the turbo.
The tech said the DDEC uses the boost sensor to adjust the fuel flow to the injectors. I my case, boost was almost none existant so not much fuel so no HP.
Replaced the hose and the output went to 325 HP at the rear wheels.
As I said, I have no idea if the 60 has this setup but it may be worth a look.
Paul
Jim, may be a dumb ? but why did you remove the waste gate turbo they are a better turbo my understanding it will give a higher boost at lower rpms and helps save the engine at higher rpm with less boost.
It also was told to me the waste gate on a series 60 also helps with the top end problems associated with the 60
good luck
Clifford, there were three factors that went into my decision. First, the waste gate shaft was "frozen". The "can" had a ton of oil in it and I did not think that was a good sign. Lastly, when I installed the first Series 60 engine I used a rebuilt turbo, so that turbo only has 53K miles on it.
At some later point, I might have the waste gate turbo reconditioned, but I simply did not have the resources to deal with that turbo at this time.
Jim
That explains that part Jim, but bring it to Quartzsite I have friend in Havasu I'll have him repair it for you for the old 6v92 you have in your way.
Forgot to tell you
Sonja said if Pat does not want to stay in the motel we will bring our van and you and Pat can have the bus and we will use the van
good luck
Clifford, what a very special offer!!! A person could not ask for a better friend! We are locked into the motel (two week cancellation policy during the Big Tent) and we will be comfortable over there.
Well, I just made the loop (2 miles) and went in the direction with the long steady pull. Still only got about 5 pounds of boost. The GPH topped 16, and the odometer said that it used .9 gallons in the 2 miles (I find fuel number to be pretty darn accurate based on the gallons used vs fill-up gallons)
I did not watch as much for smoke (too many things going on), but the couple of times I glanced, there did not seem to be a significant amount. I am a little surprised, since there was quite a bit of fuel and not much boost.
The operating temperature did not get much above 160* as I recall, but I don't recall (from my previous driving) the ECM cutting power back while the temperature was coming up to normal.
The other symptom that I forgot about, was that the engine "stuttered" while the transmission was shifting (did it both days). Normally that is very quick and smooth.
Still no codes. It is almost as if the ECM was going into the "cut back mode" as it does when there is a fault code detected.
As I had mentioned, the transmission is flashing a fault code. It involves the range shift sensor. That was not a big deal in terms of driving, as I could get the first five gears and that gets me about 17 MPH which is OK in our subdivision. What I am wondering out loud is whether the transmission ECM issues are affecting the engine operation? They talk to each over very closely via the J1939 connection. I will put in a call to our local Eaton expert and see if he has heard of such a thing.
Still looking for input. Every reply gets me to thinking about possible causes.
Jim
Jim,
The engine temp at 160 should not hold the boost at 5 PSI. I suggest you address the trans code first, since the boost remains elusive. The trans may be limiting the boost as you suggest. I say this because I do not see any other clues.
Any one else ???
Which DDEC do you have again?
Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
You mentioned a "loose" fitting on a intake hose.....after Sean's abysmal experience with a new engine I would be checking everything twice. The air filter minder not giving expected indications caught my ear also along those same lines.
WOW! I would have trouble sleeping or even relaxing. Have a couple beers.
Wish I could be of any help and don't forget to take that turbo to QS for the repair.
John
It sounds like the Silverleaf is invaluable during all this. I'm glad I got one for my Series 60.
I sure hope you can get the problem resolved soon. Almost a gallon of fuel in 2 miles doesn't seem right.
Brian, I don't know what I would do without the SilverLeaf. I am not surprised about the amount of fuel. Actually, there was some idling in there and then I was hitting the engine pretty hard. It shows 2.3 MPG for the 2 miles.
I notice when I first fill up and zero the odometer (the one I use as my "fuel gauge") and take off, my mileage is very low for the first few miles. It takes quite a bit of fuel to get going. I also suspect that in that very small window, the errors can be magnified. I was just glad to see the number high, as it shows good fuel supply.
I have been very careful to make sure the supply side is well sealed. When I tore the parts off during the removal process, the first thing I looked for was dust in the fresh air side. It was very clean. I just went out and looked, and I have one yellow line. That is low for my engine, but with the turbo not pushing a lot of air, it is probably a reasonable value.
I left a call for the local Eaton guy. He is extremely helpful. I told him it was not urgent, as I am leaving town for a few days.
JohnEd, there are not words to describe my mental state right now!! I can't remember if I mentioned it here, but we have had several family health scares (daughters and their kids) that have had both Pat and I in turmoil. That is why we are going to do the escape thing and head to Quartzsite on Sunday. A few days away and lots of bus BS will hopefully clear out the monsters lurking in what little gray matter I have left :).
Ed, I am leaning towards the transmission contributing to the problem. When I get back, I will completely disassemble the wiring harness and rework it so that I can mount the ECU in a place I can work on it and do a better job of securing the connections. The transmission has flashed about 6 different codes in the last few days and all have be eliminated by working on the connections. This last code has been stubborn. I have worked on the connections and it went away for a while, but that does not seem to work now. It is a terrible job to get to all the sensors/controls, but I will just grit my teeth and get it done when I get back.
Jim
Jim,
One thing you haven't mentioned is how the engine power feels? (seat of the pants method) How are you reading / measuring your boost pressure? If the power seems close to normal could the boost measurement system be at fault? Do you have a way of measuring exhaust gas temperature? It is an import tool in measuring the fuel mixture ratio on diesel engines. 600 to 900 degrees rolling down the road and about 1200 max on a long hard uphill pull.
Ken
Ken, I am measuring the boost off of the engine transducer via the SilverLeaf (same process as using a ProLink). I have a separate gauge, but did not look at it today. The first day, it too indicated low boost.
The power is terrible. Just what you would expect with low boost.
I welded a bung on the exhaust pipe right at the turbo for an EGR, but have not had the funds to order one yet. On a Series 60 there is no location for an EGR without modifying the manifold, and I did not want to do that.
Jim
Jim, just thinking about the trans codes.
Are there not some instances where the trans ecm can limit the torque in lower gears to protect the drive train? any chance something like this is happening?
Do you have good acceleration in the low gears?
Good luck, and enjoy the Q
Dick Egler
Dick, interesting thought.
I don't think the transmission sets the limit, but I think there is a setting in the DDEC ECM. I will probably not have a chance to look at that before I leave.
Acceleration seems OK in 2nd (the first gear I use) and maybe 3rd, but dies after that.
Right now, I know that I need to get the transmission issues resolved before I do any more testing. Kind of neat, as I have a second complete AutoShift in case I need to do some parts switching.
Good project for when I get back with my "clear" head ;D
Jim
Jim,
Larry here from Quartzsite I just talked to a friend that is shop foreman and I regard as a guru on the ecm's he said before you will get full boost you must clear up your tranny faultss it's just doing it's job of protecting your engine from the cowboys driving today.
Good Luck
Larry H.
Larry, thanks for checking with your friend.
The more I think about it, the transmission issue will be the first order of attention when I return form Quartzsite (traveling in the service truck).
I also got a call from a person who reads this board, but chooses not to post. He has a Series 50 in a bus that sounded like it had a problem like mine. He said that a DDEC III boost sensor reacts quite differently from a DDEC IV. He did some research and found several folks who had much better performance by switching from DDEC IV to DDEC III boost sensors (requires connector adaptation). I can try that fairly easily since I have my DDEC III boost sensor. One of the folks he mentioned was our own Blue Goose. Jack, care to comment?
My mind is having a hard time absorbing this concept. I did a search and did not find any direct hits. However, I found several sites that talked about putting a resistor (actually a potentiometer) in the boost circuit to fool the ECM into thinking that there was more boost that actual and that would result in more fuel to the engine (more power). Also found discussions about doing the same thing with the fuel temperature sensor. I have no plans to do any of that, but it was amazing what I found. Lots of folks out there doing "home brew" modifications to their Series 60s
Another step I may take is to switch back to the ECM that came with the replacement engine. I have heard of folks switching ECMs with no problems, but I might have to go back to mating the engine and ECM back together. My thought was that I could use my "old" ECM since I knew it talked well with the AutoShift. My old ECM is actually a DDEC IV (used with my old DDEC III) and was new 53K ago. The ECM for the replacement engine is also fairly new (replaced 163K ago). Both have about the same HP settings (~~470). The replacement engine ECM has the J1939 activated, so it should talk with the AutoShift.
Driving to Quartzsite (presently in Phoenix today 1/19) has given me some time to step back and think about how I will approach the problem. When I get back, I will not be up against a deadline, so I can pick away at it at a reasonable pace.
Jim
Jim, if you are anything like me I think of great things behind the wheel but forget them when I get back to the shop, so here is a reminder to take notes of your thoughts/ideas.
I believe this is posting that Jim is refering too
9/24/07 DDEC SLOW ACCELERATION WORKAROUND - OVERRIDEs SMOKE CONTROL SETTING
Hi - Good News for DDEC (I-II-II-IV) Owners with poor acceleration from a stop
I'm talking about Detroit Diesels with a painfully slow response when starting from a dead stop - seems their DDEC is set with some kind of "smoke control" / "Throttle Delay" / "??" option - they do not smoke when you mash the throttle down
DDEC I -
Thanks to the work of Butch Williams - Luke at US Coach stocks an EPROM replacement for approx $100 that will cure most N.J. MCI DDEC I of their poor acceleration. DDEC I's have a replaceable EPROMS and are not programable
Note - The DDEC II-IV Fix (see Below) may very well work on DDEC I's (We Just never tested the Fix on DDEC I's)
DDEC II, DDEC III, DDEC IV,
Bill Gerrie and Pete Papas have worked on this problem - Via long distance phone call Between Daytona and Toronto - Thank goodness for "Unlimited USA/Canada phone plans) Bill used his PROLINK to verify and test the settings and ideas -
First a little history
The D/D DDEC TURBO BOOT SENSOR
old part#--> 16070629 new part#--> 23528418
is a 3 pin solid state IC device
pin A = Sensor Return
pin B = Signal Line
pin C = +5 volt supply line
pin B - operating range - approx .5v to 4.75 - voltages outside this range will cause a DDEC Fault
example
pin B @ 1.00 volts = approx 00 PSI Boost
pin B @ 2.25 volts = approx 10 PSI Boost
pin B @ 3.80 vollts = approx 20 PSI Boost
<>The PROLINK was used to verify the correct action of Bill's TBS without the modifications
<>Bill came up with a unique solution - A 100 ohm resistor between pin B (sense line) and C (+5 volts) - will pull up the voltage at the sense line (pin B) to what would be an approx 4-5 psi boost voltage level (as measured/verified with the PROLINK)
<>Just pull off the connector to the TBS and splice the resistor into the wires behind the connector
<>AS the actual boost pressure increases past 5 or 6 PSI the pull-up effect goes away - allowing normal TBS voltage levels
<>AT full boost the pull-up resistor has no effect
<>The net result is that the DDEC thinks that there is a little boost pressure available at IDLE and allows for more fuel to be delivered to the injectors upon acceleration
<>This does mean that if you mash the pedal - you will produce some black smoke- just use the throttle pedal wisely (especially in front of the smog control guys)
<>Idle still remained smoke free
***** UPDATE 130 OHMS seems to be the best solution **** 07/07/07
Pete RTS/Daytona
Your results may vary - use at your own risk !!
Jim, From what I have seen here that isn't your problem. Changing to the DD3 Boost control will only give you boost faster.
Jack
Pete, I had forgotten about the information you re-posted. Thanks for posting it again.
Jack, thanks for commenting. I could not figure out why the sensor would make that much difference. However, I may play with it later on. I suppose that the present sensor could be bad, but I am still leaning on the theory that the transmission ECM is the major factor.
Jim
Jack
I agree with you - the "slow acceleration DDEC work-around" is for engines that are slow accelerators - BUT EVENTUALLY ACHIEVE FULL POWER and not an answer to Jim's current problem
sorry - should have made that clearer in my post
Pete
Jim, I spoke with Cole this morning he thinks you have a wiring harness problem and wants to know if you used the one that came with the replacement engine or the one off your old engine.
good luck
I posted this information on the Eagle website (http://www.eaglesinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1246 (http://www.eaglesinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1246)) yesterday. Since many of you don't visit that site, I thought I should post it here.
>>>>>paste from Eagle website>>>>>>>>
As a bit of background you can look at this thread: http://www.eaglesinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1037. (http://www.eaglesinternational.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1037.)
At the bottom of this long post is a question about DDEC programming.
To bring you up to date: I had hoped to get the bus running for Quartzsite. However, on 1/13 I took the first drive and it did not go well. The transmission flashed several codes and the engine would not build boost and stuttered when the shifts were made. Obviously I was quite frustrated. Pat and I decided that I needed to step back and let my mind and body heal. We drove the service truck to Quartzsite and had as good of a time as the weather and "moteling" would permit.
When we got home, I removed the transmission harness, as I was pretty sure the codes that were flashed came about because of harness issues. I also had to extend the harness loom, so that I could mount the transmission computer in an area that has much better access. Here is a photo of the modified loom:
While modifying the harness, I looked at one connector that appeared to have a couple of problems. A wire seemed to have a cut and one of the pins for this connector was not secured properly in the connector. It was obvious that someone had done a poor job of repairing the connector as shown in this photo:
After getting everything hooked up, I checked both the transmission and engine for fault codes with my Pro-Link and got none. I then decided to take a test drive today (2/12/10). The transmission shifted flawlessly. However, the highest boost I could get was 15 PSI and the power was low. This boost was a lot better than the first test drive, but it is not correct.
I had pressure tested the charge air system and checked the turbo (seemed good and only has 53K miles).
I think one possible problem is that I could not get the engine temperature over 165-170 degrees. It was about 35* ambient and in spite of not having the fan on, it just would not go over 170*. The radiator was cool to the touch but I did have the Aqua Hot in the system and the hoses were warm.
So, the big question: does anyone know if the DDEC limits fuel (thus boost) until the engine is up to temperature?
Depending on the input I get, I may switch engine ECMs (I am using the one from my original engine).
Any testing will have to wait for a few days. The weather is not going to be all that great and I need to spend a few days getting my tax data organized :o
>>>>>>>end paste>>>>
I want to thank all of you who have posted so much good information and called/emailed me with your thoughts and support.
Jim
Jim - Do you have an EGR on your mill?
niles500, when I installed the engine this time, I welded a bung in the exhaust pipe right next to the turbo (no safe place to install in the manifold). However, I have not spent the money for the gauge yet.
I guess this begs the question why you ask? I have a blanket on the manifold and turbo, so I can't check the manifold for temp or temp differential from cylinder to cylinder.
The engine runs smooth and there is no visible exhaust that I can see in the mirror (exhaust is sent to the side of the bus rather than the rear).
Jim
Some DDEC IV's (I believe that is your new mill?) are EGR VNT equipped -
Condensation Protection
In very cold ambient (i.e. < 30F) conditions the engine will operate in a "condensation protection"
mode. EGR is disabled during this mode requiring a slower turbo speed. The engine will sound
"different". During this mode of operation the operator will notice a lower "boost" reading
compared to when EGR is active, however there is NO reduction of power.
More info here - HTH
http://diesel.btc.ctc.edu/Engines/Detroit%20Diesel/EGR%20s60techguide.pdf (http://diesel.btc.ctc.edu/Engines/Detroit%20Diesel/EGR%20s60techguide.pdf)
Thank goodness the engine is non-EGR. One less issue to deal with.
Jim
Well without the unit throwing a code - the usual suspects are
1) Air Intake
2) Wrong ECM power program
3) Charge air cooler leak
4) Fuel restriction/leak (remember what happened to Sean Welsh when they RR his mill)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5153.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5153.0)
Jim
I have a DD4 on my engine and it will go to full boost when cold. You are not going to smoke, because the ecm won't let you have more fuel than you need for the boost you have. I have an extra boost sensor if you would like to try I will mail to you. The plug on my spare is a 3 wire plug.
Jack
Jim, I spent several hrs going through manuals on different engines and what I can read is all the major engine manufactures Cummins, Cat,DD, and Volvo the electronics control the HP rating till operating temperature is reached Volvo is a 190 degrees the highest.
I am go to ALB NM this week and will pick your waste gate turbo up on the way and ship it from there.
Fwiw I don't think I would want 30.2# of boost on a cold engine that's where your waste gate turbo is set at now according to the serial number you gave me
good luck
Niles, of the items you mentioned, the most logical is some sort of fuel starvation. I pressure checked the charge air system. I did not use soap, but did cure some obvious leaks.
For the fuel, I will look the SilverLeaf again, but I think it had some fairly high flow rates on the first test suggesting that restriction is not a problem.
My tattle tale does not indicate an inlet restriction.
Jack, thanks for the offer. I have a DDEC III sensor, but would have to adapt the wiring. Hold off mailing until I make another test.
Clifford, thanks for all of the work you have done on this "adventure" of mine. As far as the turbo, I will be in Albuquerque in mid-March for the FMCA event. If Jim (or one of the other Albuquerque group) does not mind, maybe you can leave it with them and I can pick it up.
Jim
Jim, I'll leave it at Jim's Smith shop he is just 2 blocks off of I 40
good luck
Removed
Dallas, that is a good place to check Jim has a 3 pc manifold and replaced 1 section with a new one and Cole thinks he has a leak also.
good luck
Clifford and Dallas, interesting thought. I did use new gaskets and torqued the bolts according to specs.
As you know, the three piece manifold relies on "interference" to seal the joint (slip joint rather than a bolted joint). I did clean up the joints as best as I could.
Trying to determine a leak will be a challenge. As I have noted, I have exhaust blankets on the manifold and turbo. they are not easy to get off and I would suspect that you can only detect the leak by having access to the exhaust area when the bus is under load.
My guess is that the DD design relies on "corrosion" to seal the joints. I know it was not fun to break the joints loose to put the new part in.
Jim
When you start the engine there is always a puff of smoke, If you are looking at the engine when it is started you should be able to see some smoke as it is started if you have a leak.
Jack
If you hook a long metal hose to the end of a stethoscope you can insert it between the blanket and manifold and listen for hissing or putting. I have done this many times and you can get a real good idea of where the leak is just by pointing the, I used copper tubing, end in the direction of the leak. Main point is that if you can work the hose all the way around the manifold and not hear any leak you have none and can look elsewhere. The beauty of the copper is that it can be bent/formed to allow the open end to point directly at the underside to max the volume of any hiss.
Intake manifold is harder to hear and you need to be right on top of it BUT it can be heard with the steth. First take a can of carb cleaner and spray around the gasket. Spray around all the intake hose as well. My logic is that they dump propane into the intake to boost power so a little flamable vapor would have an affect but wouldn't harm anything. Nice to get a nod from Clifford on that, to be sure.
HTH,
John
Jack, I will station Pat in the bedroom with the engine hatch open when I start it for the next test.
JohnEd, good idea. After the next test drive, I will try that if getting the engine up to temperature does not resolve the issue.
I am not sure when the next drive will be. It snowed again today and the rest of the week looks pretty grim in terms of both temperature and snow again later in the week.
I am really tired of this winter weather. Last week I tried to solder a couple of connections in the transmission bay and I had a heck of a time getting the wire up hot enough to flow the solder.
Jim
Jim, I will be going through Albuquerque this week if you want me to pick up the tubro I will. Give me a call.
Wayne
Wayne, that would be great. However, I am not sure when Clifford will be there. If it works out, that would be great.
Jim
Jim,
this is a SWAG and may have been already covered, but make sure all your injectors are plugged in and working. On my 6V92TA, I had one side come unplugged and the bus still ran, but performed poorly as expected. The DD shop in Fla chased it around for several days. Just a WAG.
Art
Wayne and Jim we will be in Albuquerque on Tuesday through Friday or maybe longer depends on how long it takes Jim to spray the battery compartment and stairs give me a call on the cell
good luck
Quote from: rv_safetyman on February 14, 2010, 08:10:01 AM
... For the fuel, I will look the SilverLeaf again, but I think it had some fairly high flow rates on the first test suggesting that restriction is not a problem.
...
Jim, FWIW, when I had the fuel restriction problem leading to low boost, the flow rates on the Silverleaf did not look abnormal.
Ditto for when I had a low power problem after the second rebuild, which turned out to be a restriction in the return orifice.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, thanks for the input. I can't recall how you determined that you had an issue. I have "new" (from first installation) DOT tubing most of the way into the engine compartment and then Aeroquip AQP (I think - stainless braid anyway) to the Fuel Pro 382 filter. From there I have more Aeroquip hose to the pump.
I will look at the hose, but you can't always tell by looking at the outside. I have a friend who can flow test the hoses on a test bench if I need to. I did hook up an electric pump from the main tank (lost prime - clue?) and I think it flowed pretty well. May have to try that again. I also have an auxiliary tank for the Aqua Hot and generator. It is plumbed to the Fuel Pro with ball valves. I had thought about taking a quick run with the electric pump from that tank to the fuel filter. Have to be careful as the return is to the main tank.
It looks like we may have a weather window on Wednesday for some more testing. I need to make a checklist of everything I need to look at and do - thanks to everyone here :)
Jim
As long as we are listing all of things that could cause the low boost/power, I had an email from Brian Diehl on another subject and he suggested that I check my throttle to make sure it is asking for full power. Indeed, the symptom really fits that issue. I just went out and hooked up the Pro-Link and it is indeed going from zero to 100%. Boy, I wish that was the problem.
I also looked at the fuel lines and could not see any problems. Sean mentioned the return line. I did have to do some re-plumbing, but it all looks OK. During the next test session, one of the things I have on my list is to undo the return line, put it in a bucket and start the engine to make sure I am getting flow.
Keep up the ideas. I will do some more testing on Wednesday and see if we can find the problem.
Jim,
Undoing the return line is fine, but at the same time there is a restricted fitting coming out of the back of the head on the return line. It's job is to keep the fuel pressure up to the desired amount! So make sure that it still has that fitting is still there and restricted and not completely plugged.
FWIW ;D BK ;D (the politically incorrect busnut! ;) )
Quote from: rv_safetyman on February 15, 2010, 08:32:02 AM
... I can't recall how you determined that you had an issue. ...
Jesus told me.
Actually, the fuel line restriction was a best guess; in reviewing my notes on the blog, here:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005/05/were-free-were-free-free-at-last-from.html (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2005/05/were-free-were-free-free-at-last-from.html)
... I see that we actually made several changes at once. However, changing the fuel line was the suggestion of one of Pedco's top engine techs (whose name really is Jesus), who really felt strongly that this was the root cause. Now five years later it is hard for me to remember exactly what parameters Jesus was looking at to cause him to come up with that diagnosis.
That being said, I think it was you yourself who had suggested this as a possibility while we were going through this pain. It must be so, since I found it in the narrative from the whole episode that I started back then on "the other board." Possibly worth a re-read:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/10261.html (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/10261.html)
Quote
I have "new" (from first installation) DOT tubing most of the way into the engine compartment and then Aeroquip AQP (I think - stainless braid anyway) to the Fuel Pro 382 filter. From there I have more Aeroquip hose to the pump.
I will look at the hose, but you can't always tell by looking at the outside. ...
Right; when we got the old hose out, it looked fine on the outside, but we could feel soft spots that could have been crimps in the inner braid, or perhaps spots where the hose was collapsing under vacuum.
Anyway, hope this is of some help...
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Bet every thing will be ok when Jim gets the turbo back Friday that came from that engine and installs it
good luck
Sean - Jesus = divine intervention - LOL
Jim,
Years ago when we first got our bus, We lost power on our way to a Bluegrass festival to the point we could not run above 800-900 RPM. WE changed the fuel filters, after waiting a couple hours for a friend to arrive with the new filters. New filters installed and away we went, for about 3-4 miles, then same symptoms. The friend said he had recently had a problem with a collapsed fuel line. We ran a hose from the tank fill opening to the primary filter inlet, primed it and taped the hose to the side of the bus. Bus ran great. When I got home I removed the rubber hose from the bulkhead fitting to the primary filter and split it lengthwise on my band saw. The inner layer had delaminated in one area. When cold the engine ran good, but since this hose laid against the engine block, it would warm up and suck partially shut, limiting fuel flow. Not sure if this is your problem, but something to consider. Ain't this here Bussin' thing fun!! Jack
PS: Be sure to let us know what problem turns out to be.
BK (the real one) I thought you were the winner!! I have replumbed the return line twice while installing this engine. Late last night I went out to see if I had left the restrictor out. Certainly, leaving it out would result in my symptom. It was there. This morning I went out and removed the restrictor and tried to blow through it. No flow, However, when I hooked up some very low pressure nitrogen (handy) it flowed just fine. My guess is that I had about 10 PSI on it. I should have hooked up a gauge, but I got in a hurry.
Sean and Jack. I have seen hoses act as one way valves when the tube delaminates and tears. I don't think that could happen with the DOT tubing which is connected directly to the tank. With the braided stainless hose, there is no way to feel any issues. The hose is pretty new and it is absolutely top of the line product As I said, I can have it flow tested if needed. The braided stainless hose connects from the DOT tubing to the Fuel Pro filter and another braided stainless hose connects the filter to the pump. I am not using the stock fuel filters. You can see the condition of the fuel filter with the Fuel Pro.
Clifford, I can not believe the present turbo would not work (albeit not as well), but you are almost always right :D
Maybe tomorrow I will learn more on my test drive.
Jim
BTW, I checked and DDEC does not have a fuel pressure sensor. Sure wished that they did.
Now back when I was fighten in the Army we almost always checked for flow AND pressure to eliminate the fuel pump and lines. Why couldn't you connect one of those little no moving parts fuel pumps to the line at the outlet of the filter and PROVE that there is good flow from the tank AND filter system....including all hose that is new or braided or not. Take that possibility out of the question and the suggestions have more likely hood of being true.
How bout the hose that connects the filter to the engine? Can you do the fuel pump test at the engine end and prove more of the systems performance?And speaking of brain farts: can you connect the suck side of that pump to the fuel restrict-er and see if you get flow cause that would mean it isn't fuel delivery at all. Could that be true?
John
Today we made a few loops and I had Pat record some of the data so that I could review it and present a bit of it here.
Before the drive, I had tested the fuel return restrictor. It seemed to be functioning OK. I am guessing here, but I could not blow through it, but it did flow at maybe 5-10 PSI
When I started the engine, I had Pat look at the exhaust manifold blanket to see if she could see smoke. She said she saw a little puff, so there is probably a bit of an exhaust leak at the joints of the three piece manifold. She said it went away quickly. I think those joints will seal themselves pretty quickly.
I closed the valves to the Aqua-Hot and transmission cooler, and was able to get the engine up to 195* With the engine at that temperature, I was able to get 13.8 pounds boost at probably 1800 RPM. Fuel flow at that reading was about 23 GPH.
The SilverLeaf reports a value called "percent load". This is a reported value from the DDEC (as opposed to a SilverLeaf calculated value). It really seemed that I had to work to get that value over 70%. I did hit 100% one time. As I recall, on the other engine, the 100% value would pop up pretty quick and easily.
When we got back, I disconnected the return hose at the bulkhead and had Pat start the engine. After about 20 seconds at normal idle, I collected about 1/2 - 3/4 pint of fuel.
Lots of folks are thinking fuel restriction and that sounds logical. I plan to hook my fairly high volume fuel pump (Holley red) to the fuel system at the pump connection end of the supply hose so that it is pulling the fuel through the supply and delivery hoses along with the filter. I think that will tell us a bit about the fuel supply system. I will measure the amount of fuel and time, so that I get a flow rate.
The weather is turning bad again (this global warming thing is killing me ::)). I can do the fuel test in the bad weather, but will have to wait to do more testing for several days. My plan is to change the ECM and see if that makes a difference. I will also take a look at my mechanical boost gauge to make sure that I don't have a boost sensor issue (forgot to do that today).
If that does not do the job, I should have the turbo from Clifford and will install it (a terrible task in the bus).
All suggestions welcome
Moving forward, making progress...that's the direction you wanna go!
Removed
These exercises sure burn time for you - especially when you have many other thing to do.
"The hose is pretty new and it is absolutely top of the line product"
I am probably telling you the obvious. Diesel fuel attacks some rubber hose/liners. I guess it would be a long shot that a new hose would delaminate or deteriorate in some way to cause your problem though. I think there is still a separate SAE spec for hose carrying diesel fuel. I would be surprised if short term use would cause your problem.
Just brain storming, no need to respond. Could the cold temps create an environment for this problem?
Ed Roelle
Flint, MI
Dallas, I think you are suggesting that it could be a manifold/head seal issue. As I said, I took quite a bit of care to make sure the surfaces were clean and used new gaskets. I also torqued the heads per spec. Have you heard of any problems with these parts sealing? I am with you that I think the two connections where the three part manifolds mate is probably not the issue. If it is, I would suspect that DD relies on a rusting process to seal them. If that is the case, it will get better. Indeed, it kind of looks like the situation is getting slightly better with each test run.
Removing the blankets is not a huge job with the engine on the dolly, but is a job for a contortionist with the engine in place. I was not very flexible as a kid and the years have not made it any better :-\. I do not need to remove the blankets to change the turbo (another fun >:( job). However, I will remove them if there is any doubt (will do so when I switch turbos).
I got to thinking about the Holley pump and whether it will challenge the fuel delivery system. Turns out that it is rated at 97 GPH. This pump is old, but it was rebuilt a while ago and never has had much use. Should be able to test the flow.
Jim
QuoteCould the cold temps create an environment for this problem?
. It sure as heck causes a problem for ME >:(. We were supposed to be in Yuma enjoying the sun!!
Ed, we were typing about the same time. I am pretty sure that the stainless hose I am using is Aeroquip with AQP tubing. That is said to be resistant to almost any fuels. It is used in racing applications where racing fuels are really tough on hose. The problem I am dealing with in my mind is whether I put both hoses on or just the supply to the filter. I will try to check my records when I get a chance.
I think the Holley pump test will sort out any problems.
Jim
Boy that thing has sure put you through the mill. No pun intended.
There is one sure way to eliminate the fuel lines and that is to actually eliminate them. It may be a little too redneck but a 5 gallon can hooked up to the filter and return line would eliminate the guess work. It would also give you or a helper a chance to see if fuel is still returning under full power, such as it is. I am certainly no expert but the fuel flow you got out of the restricter sounds low to me.
Hope the weather and your luck improves,
Don 4107
Jim,
I am like Don on this (while I am no expert) but it was said (when they first came out, and has been proven wrong many times over) that the 60 Series engines are "supposedly" returning enough hot fuel to the tanks to keep the tanks from having "gelling problems" yeah right, tell that to all the truckers we used to pull in off the interstate & hwy's "to thaw out" when I drove big wrecker!
But I still feel it might be a low amount on the return. (don't ask me why, cause I have no clue)
Now as for the 3 piece exhaust manifold on 60 series. I have been down that road before too! When we replaced a turbo 2 yrs ago we found that the manifold had cracks in one section. I called the place we buy a lot of parts from and was told by the girl I deal with (yes girl) "if the one is all you want, I'll sell you just the one, but we generally find if one has cracks all 3 have cracks or will crack trying to separate them or will crack soon after re-installing them , I do have all 3 in stock. It's your choice!"
Well upon better inspection dad & I saw that yes 2 of the 3 had obvious cracks. So we bought all 3! Once it was back together and producing so much boost I was blowing hoses of the charge air cooler system (different issue! ;) ), I took the old manifold apart and sure enough if the 3rd one wasn't cracked before I started, it was when I finished! ;)
FWIW ;D BK ;D
Jim
You have found your problem, the little puff of smoke when you started the engine is enough to kill your boost. I know you said it cleared up, but so dose the exhaust after it starts. Any small leek at the exhaust will kill the boost. I don't think it will ever fix it's self with rust. I haven't had any experience with the 3 piece exhaust but I am sure it shouldn't leak.
Jack
2/21/10 Well, I thought I would go out in the 20* (max) and snow crappy weather conditions to the unheated shop and test the fuel flow. This weather is really getting to me. Been this way on and off for the past several weeks and will be for a few more days at least. Down into the low teens and sub 10 most nights. Been a terrible winter. Global warming, my A$$ >:(.
I uncoupled the braided stainless hose from the Series 60 fuel pump and adapted it to my Holly (red) electric fuel pump. I pumped one gallon in 55 seconds. That equates to over 60 GPH which I would think would be plenty. Definitely suggests that there is no blockage between the tank and the pump (including the filter). There is no filter after the pump - goes directly to the head.
It looks like we might have a window on Wednesday or thursday (assuming we don't get too much snow) to do some more testing. I plan to install the ECM that came with the engine to see if there is any issue there. On the next test drive, I will be sure to check my mechanical boost gauge against the DDEC reading to make sure I don't have a boost sensor issue.
In the mean time I am trying to psyche myself for the terrible job of changing the turbo and checking the exhaust manifold. In Eagles, the engine is offset to that side and there is really not much room to work. I might see if I can pull the exhaust blankets for the next test so that Pat can get a better look for any area of exhaust leak and when I can put a listening tube on the joints.
Jim
Ahoy, Jim,
And ---- while you are being 'entertained' by your engine, a few other experiences which I have 'enjoyed'. Probably nothing to do you're your problem, but maybe of interest to others.
Last summer, on a trip to OR, WA, a problem with my Eagle -01 and
Cummins M-11.
Cruising up a mountain pass, I saw my EGT was at 1100f + !!!!!! -- and increasing!!! So, I reduced power. I'd never seen it above ~~1100f before. My EGT sensor is plugged into the manifold -- (if installed below the turbo in the exhaust pipe, it would be a lot lower because of the 'work' that is taken out by the turbo). As I looked at my readings, I realized that my boost was down -- best at ~~2000 rpm was about 10 -12 psi, and the EGT was climbing until I powered down. Power was down too, but I was able to continue, with one eye in the road, and the other on the EGT gage.
I checked and found no fault -- all the hoses and clamps were OK. I suspected that my charge cooler had 'blown', and was leaking, or maybe my turbo was bad. If I didn't have my boost/EGT gage (Westach), I'd probably not have known until it was too late, and I'm sure that I would have blown my engine!!! EGT running wild as I saw would have fried the valves right out of the engine.
I was able to continue my trip. The mountain passes were a slow ride, to hold the EGT down to no more than 1100f. I was over there with the 80,000 lb loaded trucks. Cummins has available 'maps' of EGT/RPM/Boost combinations, but one gets used to normal ranges and limits for different conditions.
Got home, and (finally) found the fault. On the (hot) compressed air discharge 4" aluminum tubing from the turbo to the charge cooler, I had a 1/8" pipe thread port with a phenolic plug with a thermocouple sensor imbedded in it to check discharge temps. (Yuh, hot, ~~as high as 325f at full boost of ~~29 psi). When I was through with my engineering work, I just clipped the wire and left the phenolic plug in the system. The plug could obviously not take the temps and blew out. A brass plug is now doing the job OK.
Another 'event': Two months ago, in LA country, a slight 'pop', no boost, and EGT going wild!!!! I was able to crawl over the pass with an eye on the EGT without hurting the engine. Stopped, and found that I had blown off a hose. At least I'd not lost the 'T' bolt hose clamp, and the 4" silicon hose was OK. Went to re-install the hose, and it would not slide together. So, I said to my wife "Please bring me some KY jelly". "Well, OK, but I thought that you were working on the bus". Worked just fine.
For all you bus guys out there, as far as I'm concerned, a turbo diesel engine without an EGT gage plugged into the exhaust manifold, and a turbo boost gage is NOT fit to be driven. I can think of no more important instruments than these items. The oil / coolant temps, pressures are also vital, but usually don't change that quickly.
With this instrument, you are able to 'press on' with knowledge that you are not hurting your engine. Absent an EGT, you are constrained to being a philosopher.
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Bob, you have preached this subject to me many times and I knew that I need to get and EGT. These stories really drive home the point. I even welded a bung close to the turbo (no good place to put it in the manifold ahead of the turbo for the gauge. I would think I will get good relative data.
Folks have said that a small leak will kill your boost and your story reinforces that.
I have been trying to make my plans for the next test run. I did just find out that my turbo (the by-pass unit that came with the replacement engine) did not make it to Denver. Thus I will have to delay that test.
So, here is what I plan to do.
1) I will retest the whole charge air system for leaks. I had done a quick test looking for "big leaks" that I could hear. You guys have convinced me that a small leak can kill me. So this time I will make liberal use of soapy water to see if maybe I have several small leaks or one big one I missed.
2) Do another fuel flow test - just cause it is easy (and fun :D).
3) Switch the ECM with the one that was on the replacement engine.
4) Pull the exhaust blanket so that we can better check for manifold leaks.
Then we will will take her for a drive and see what happens.
Bob, I am would not call my adventures "entertaining". Lots of other terms come to mind :o. Especially with all the terrible weather I have had to endure >:(. Perhaps others are entertained ;D. If nothing else, it has resulted in some good dialogue and troubleshooting thoughts.
I have said it many times before, but I really appreciate all of the input. Some things that I was tending to ignore or dismiss, are getting back on the "must check" list thanks to good logical discussions.
Jim
Removed
Jim, you gotta get that thing working!
The thread is becoming a whole garment!
I have nothing more to offer but respect for tenacity and a hearty "Good Luck"!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Dallas
Our boost guages measure:
Gauge pressure is zero referenced against ambient air pressure, so it is equal to absolute pressure minus atmospheric pressure.
not
Absolute pressure is zero referenced against a perfect vacuum, so it is equal to gauge pressure plus atmospheric pressure.
SO 20 PSI boost means 20 PSI over atmospheric pressure
Pete RTS/Daytona - Once and instructor - always and instructor
You can take the instructor out of the classroom - but you can't take the classroom out of the instructor
Pete - Senior Advisory Engineer / Instructor 30 years IBM retired
Y
Ahoy, All,
We old BIG ROUND ENGINE airplane guys used manifold pressure which was defined in absolute inches of mercury. I flew about the last of the high performance high altitude airplanes -- the 'infamous' AJ-2 Savage. (Google will tell you "all"). It was a veritable turbo charged 'flying steam calliope'!!!! Like for instance 61" of manifold pressure -- sea level power -- at 42,000'. Our turbo diesels are done as 'gage' pressure -- that is -- above ambient in psi as noted in the previous listing. MAN_O_ MANNO, you climbed out of that airplane into a jet and you thought that you were wrapped in your mother's arms.
OK, WE bus guys all run BIG ENGINES Not many other people do, and so this is for all we 'Big Engine' guys. Maybe not 'round', but at least big, and need to be paid attention.
This is a 'cultural artifact' left over from a good while ago!!!
DEDICATED TO ALL WHO FLEW BEHIND ROUND ENGINES
We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining aviation and our
hearing...
A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery. The air travels through
it in a straight line and doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of
engine oil or pilot sweat.
Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a switch from "OFF" to
"START" and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is
harder to start.
Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. You have to
seduce it into starting. It's like waking up a horny mistress. On some
planes, the pilots aren't even allowed to do it...
Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a lady-like poof and start
whining a little louder.
Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more
rattles, another BANG, a big macho FART or two, more clicks, a lot more
smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a GUY
thing...
When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate
on the flight ahead. Starting a turbine is like flicking on a ceiling fan:
Useful, but, hardly exciting.
When you have started his round engine successfully your crew chief looks up
at you like he'd let you kiss his girl too!
Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough, leading to aircrew boredom,
complacency and inattention.
A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow any minute.
This helps concentrate the mind!
Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges to keep a pilot's
attention. There's nothing to fiddle with during long flights.
Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman Lamps. Round engines
smell like God intended machines to smell.
Pass this on to an old WWII pilot (or his son who flew them in Vietnam) in
remembrance of that "Greatest Generation."
Enjoy /s Bob
Removed
Tire gauges work the same way, referenced to current atmospheric pressure. One failing of digital gauges, when you are trying for 1/4 psi accuracy the way you sometimes do on race cars, is they don't reference atmospheric pressure very well. Analog gauges do better at that.
Brian
A quick update in a minute.
I have kept the thread going because it contains a lot of information on what I have done in the trouble shooting process and all of the great input I have gotten for you great folks. After this post, I will start another thread when I have something significant to report (as BW said this one is getting a bit long).
Now for today's update. I repeated the fuel flow test and got a gallon of fuel in about 50 seconds according to the stop watch. That is a bit quicker than the first test. It also suggests that the fuel system is capable of flowing 60 GPH to the pump. I think we can eliminate that factor.
I again installed my plugs in the charge air system so that I could pressure test all tubes, hose connections, and the charge air cooler. This time I applied a lot of soapy water every where. In the previous test I was looking for gross leaks, but a lot of you told me that small leaks could cause the problem. I found several SMALL leaks. A couple of connections were worse than the others, but there was not huge loss. I got all of the tube/hose leaks eliminated. On one connection I had to use two clamps to get it to seal. A good friend is sending me more clamps and I will double clamp all of the connections.
I have two very small leaks in the charge air cooler. At 30 PSI, I am getting continuous bubbles, but not at high frequency or large size.
I will take a test drive tomorrow to see if getting the leaks sealed up makes much of a difference. I will also have Pat start the engine and I will watch the exhaust manifold to see if I can see any signals of a leak. One person called and suggest putting a piece of plywood in front of the tailpipe to create a bit of back pressure. The thought is that will magnify any leak in the manifold area.
Jim
Ahoy, Jim, All,
One factor of possible interest would be the pressure in the exhaust manifold before the turbo. I don't have the faintest notion of what typical pressures are under various load conditions. A significant leak causing low pressure would see the turbo not getting proper flow and would cause the low boost pressures that you are seeing.
If I were doing a 'cold start' engine installation I would install TWO ports in the exhaust manifold. One for the EGT, and another for a pressure port. Be very useful for trouble shooting.
Does anyone know what typical pressures are? DD must certainly have such info available. If no one knows, I'll check with Cummins. Couldn't be much different.
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Bob, interesting point. I had observed that the Jake brakes are quite a bit quieter than the old engine. Your comment makes me wonder if there could be a restriction in the exhaust. Can't for the life of me think what it could be. I guess I could have installed a gasket incorrectly, but I really tried to be careful when installing the manifold. I will have Pat rev the engine and see what kind of flow I get out of the tailpipe. I suppose it could be a restriction on the downside of the turbo, but again, I can't think of what it could be. Nothing has changed from the first engine.
I tried to measure each exhaust port with the IR gun, but the blanket make that impossible.
Another point to ponder.
For those of you saying "darn electronic engine", I am not sure it is an electronic issue. I am not getting any codes. So, the jury is still out on that issue.
At some point, I could do an injector test with the Pro-Link, but the engine sounds pretty smooth.
Jim
Okay - I just got finished rereading the ENTIRE thread - As you are narrowing the possibilities -
1) I realized my third post was for the most part repetitive
2) I'm now beginning to suspect your "3 part" exhaust as the villian (tell us more)
3) Not totally believing it's not fuel supply related
FWIW
Ahoy, Jim,
A question: Did you keep the booster pump switched on while you were driving / testing? Your tests showed plenty of flow rate with the boost pump on. The reason I asked is that without the positive pressure from the boost pump, perhaps the braided hose (teflon?) liner collapses and restricts flow.
Good luck /s/ Bob
Jim , seeing that you are in Co. I have seen what pack rats can do in a short time. ( plugged exhaust ) Pat
Bob, I probably did not explain what I was doing with the pump. I disconnected the hose at the DD pump and hooked it up to the INLET of the Holley pump. I then put the outlet of the Holley pump into a 1 gallon jug. Thus, I was testing the ability of the complete supply system (hoses and filter) to supply the DD pump - simulated with the Holley pump. I do not have a supply pump in the system.
Pat, as far as I know, we do not have pack rats here. The bus is in the shop, and I just installed the muffler and tailpipe a couple of months ago. Having said that, I did not think to check for any blockage. The next time I fire it up to do some testing, I will see what the exhaust feels like in terms of flow.
Jim,
Just a slight thought on exhaust blockage (which I really doubt it an issue, but possible!).
The engine was out right? the exhaust was open right? Was it anywhere other than your shop during this time? Could be something accidentally got dropped in there. (or even accidentally on purpose once it was discovered that they were not going to be able to ho$e you on replacing the engine, but again very doubtful, but still possible!)
OK now back to the leaks ANY leak in the air charge/cooler system is a problem! Get that air charge cooler fixed! I'll suspect that once that is done and you verify the rest of the exhaust / turbo system is in good none leaking condition it will perform like a new engine! (oh yeah it is a new engine! ;) )
;D BK ;D
OK folks. I have some new information that I need to post. However, I will start a new thread, since this one is getting too long.
Jim