I wonder if anyone has heard of this kind of problem. I started my DD 8V92 yesterday. It was hard to start in Arcadia and here. After it started it ran about 2 minutes and the RPM started dropping. Then a large puff of smoke came from the exhaust and then the engine quit suddenly. After that happened I found that I had no electrical power to the dash. What could possibly cause that to happen? We arre camped in Lakeland so we aren't exactly stranded. If no one knows of an easy fix to this problem, do you guys know of a good diesel mech in Lakeland, Orlando or Tampa? I have a tow service policy, so I could have it towed to a shop if need be. Thanks.
DDEC or mechanical?
What's the voltage on your batteries?
My guess is your batteries are dead and caused the shutdown solenoids to activate. I think it takes power to keep them closed. When you remove power, they open and allow air to the shutdown solenoid. The reason it took 3 minutes and slowly died, is because it was building up enough air to activate the shutdown.
This doesn't explain how you had enough power to start it in the first place.
Are you sure the rear remote switches are in the right position? Set to front start? Set to Run position?
Actually, I'm modifying this. I think your problem is the rear switches. If you leave the front/rear switch in the rear position, the front starter button won't work. You were not clear exactly what you mean by "no electrical power to the dash". Does that mean the front start button does nothing? or does it mean non of the gauges, lights or buzzers work?
Your shutdown is exactly what you will see if you leave the rear stop/run switch in the stop position. If you watch the shutdown cylinder, you'll see it slowly activate as the air pressure gets up to about 60 psi.
This could be caused by bad sensors on the safety shutdown system, too, or a true warning (low oil, low water, hot water, low oil pressure).
Also, explain you comment, "It was hard to start in Arcadia...". What do you mean by "hard to start".
Since your bus is an '87, it probably is not a DDEC. If it is, the problem sounds like low voltage to the DDEC ECM. The low voltage reaction of the DDEC sounds a lot like your description. That would also go along with the no power to the dash.
As is always the case, your first action should be to change the fuel filters. They could cause the symptoms you describe. If you do it yourself, be sure to fill the filters with fuel before you install them to avoid a loss of prime.
Again, if it would be a DDEC, you would want to check the fuses to the ECM.
Jim
John Silver is right there by you he owns Central Florida Bus Repair in Lakeland.
Super nice guy was in Arcadia parked over by Ace and had the big jacked up golf cart that had signs on it for his shop.
FWIW I'd do like Jim suggested and ck/change fuel filters first.
;D BK ;D
Change your filters and reprime if it starts and does the same change the fuel pump just went through this with my 8v92 installed a new pump at it is good too go.
If you do need a new fuel pump and it is a mechanical engine change over to the later DDEC style where you have 2 outlets 1 for each head better pump with more volume and pressure less than 200 bucks
good luck
Quote from: rv_safetyman on January 08, 2010, 06:48:35 AM
Since your bus is an '87, it probably is not a DDEC. If it is, the problem sounds like low voltage to the DDEC ECM. The low voltage reaction of the DDEC sounds a lot like your description. That would also go along with the no power to the dash.
As is always the case, your first action should be to change the fuel filters. They could cause the symptoms you describe. If you do it yourself, be sure to fill the filters with fuel before you install them to avoid a loss of prime.
Again, if it would be a DDEC, you would want to check the fuses to the ECM.
Jim
Jim,
I agree with you analysis of the DDEC, but I don't agree with the fuel filters. The shutdown he describes is clearly an air pressure buildup causing a shutdown because the shutdown system is already set. Fuel filters won't do that, but DDEC will as will the safety shutdown and rear switches in a mechanical engine.
I don't recommend changing filters until the shutdown reason is isolated.
craig
And while I respect everything Luvrbus says, I have to disagree with him on changing the fuel pump in this case without more diagnosis. Fuel pump could cause the problem described but doesn't explain the dash electrical part. My money's on the air system shutdown due to some electrical problem (switches, DDEC, etc).
But time will tell who's analysis is correct here :)
Thanks guys, it is not a DDEC. The batteries were low this morning so I have a charger on it. Will check again after a charge.
Gumpy, electrial problems or shut downs will stop the engine instantly he loses rpm then it shuts down he has a fuel problem.The hard to start is most likely the cooler weather in Fl
good luck
By hard to start I mean it took 15-20 seconds turning over before it started running. Generally when the batteries are up it fires up almost immediately. Switches are in the right position in the rear.
as BK said, Central Florida Bus is in Lakeland. Coincidentally, so am i. Both of us can help, them by fixing the problem, me by helping on some other things if you need help.
866-2368726. i've had them do some work on our bus and i know others that also vouch for their good work, and reasonable rates.
Just out of curi-viscosity ;D, is it possible there could be fuel some where between the tank and the motor that could be jelled up, I just spoke to Mike yesterday where he told me of the unusually cold temps down that way.Don't know if that area even has winter mix fuel yet, just a thought, but check the shut down solenoid once your Batt's are up to voltage any way. Just thinking out load. good luck
V ;)
please post results...learning minds want to know.
Fuel problems will not cause lack of electrical power at the dash. With no electrical power at the engine stop solenoid, engine will die a little slower as the air pressure is slowly building and slowly pushing the lever on the governor, slowly closing the fuel supply. I too recommend Central Coach. I have known John as well as his father Wynn for many years and have never heard any negative about their shop. Jack
Thanks all you guys. Y'all are the best. Sure is comforting to have access to so many knowlegeable minds. Will let you know what fixes it.
Mal
Whats wrong with Trans Diesel in Lakeland, the first thing I check for loss of power and not cranking is the shut down the one on the left on top of the governor housing if it is clear of the shut down lever then start looking else where.
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on January 08, 2010, 07:40:06 AM
Whats wrong with Trans Diesel in Lakeland
good luck
Clifford,
I don't think any of us said there was anything wrong with Trans Diesel in Lakeland.
Personally I have never heard of them nor had any dealings with them.
But on the other hand I have met Wynn & John Silver of Central Florida Bus Repair. And John spent considerable time helping me figure out an electrical gremlin issue on the '05 Setra I took to Arcadia in the middle of the night just after the party ended on New Years. As well as assisting many other busnuts at Arcadia as well.
I was just trying to pass on info of a fellow busnut who has helped me out.
;D BK ;D
BK, I don't know anyone at Central FL Bus but after taking a lick from a outfit in Vegas for a minor repair that turned deadly later that cost me 15 grand.
I just don't have faith in some shops and a Detroit dealer can usually go right to the problem and will cost less in the long run but that is just my way.
good luck
I had a similar problem. It turned out that the switch in the engine compartment, the one that is used for starting at the dash or engine compartment developed a short then failed completely.
At first all started perfectly, then started perfectly intermittently with occasional cranking sessions then refused to start at the dash with a key. It took me two days after changing out weak batteries, tracing wires etc. to learn that it started and ran appropriately from the engine compartment.
It turns out that the switch is a six pole 3 position switch and two poles had arced enough that it had burnt the contacts for starting at the dash. I'm not sure if the dash worked or not but a lot of the systems are charged from that switch.
Hope that helps.
Mike
Quote from: luvrbus on January 08, 2010, 07:01:23 AM
Gumpy, electrial problems or shut downs will stop the engine instantly he loses rpm then it shuts down he has a fuel problem.The hard to start is most likely the cooler weather in Fl
good luck
Right, it is a fuel problem, but not related to the pump. The problem is it fuel is being cut off to the engine by the shutdown cylinder. He said, "After it started it ran about 2 minutes and the RPM started dropping. " That's just about how long it takes to build enough air pressure for the air activated shutdown solenoid to push the rack stop lever far enough to finally shut off the bus. The RPM will drop slowly as the pressure builds until finally it has enough to get the shutoff closed all the way.
This is an electrical issue, probably related to the low batteries. BTW, what was the voltage on your batteries, MLH1936?
The slower starting is a result of the lower temps in FL. It's the new Minnesota, I hear!
I've also had problems with the fuel pressure switch sticking and not allowing the starter to engage. It's part of the safety shutdown system which allows you to override the shutdown by holding the start button on the dash and not having the starter stay engaged. It was happening so often I now have an alligator clip hanging next to my fuel pressure switch so I could ground it when it stuck. I've replaced the switch since, and this one is working better, so far.
Allright I will buy part of that but with the puff of smoke and slowing shutting off and it not starting to day if his air pressure is below 60 lbs they will start and then shut off my money still on the fuel LOL.I hope the guy doesn't have a emergency shut down on that 92 it flipped
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on January 08, 2010, 09:59:55 AM
Allright I will buy part of that but with the puff of smoke and slowing shutting off and it not starting to day if his air pressure is below 60 lbs they will start and then shut off my money still on the fuel LOL.I hope the guy doesn't have a emergency shut down on that 92 it flipped
good luck
Yeah, the puff of smoke is odd.
He did post a message later on saying his batteries were low this morning, but didn't indicate how low. I suspect he's been running his heater off the coach batts, and not charging for some reason, and simply hasn't got the juice to power up now. Said he's charging, so we'll wait for his results.
If it's fuel, I'll buy you a beer when we finally get to meet....
odd why it would have enough power to fire up in the first place, and then not enough power to maintaine any of the solenoids. and I hope to get you the beer I owe you gumpy this coming summer.
Grant
Got a quick message from Mal on his blackberry. He said he has lost internet servise but wanted everyone to know that John Silver found a failed master switch. Switch replaced and everything is working properly. He also wanted to thank everyone for their help. Jack
Air shuts down the fuel, not electricity. So if there is no air it won't shut down.
It will also start with the front engine run switch set at Off if you jump it from the rear with no air.
Once air pressure is lost the fuel rack is automatically open.
I live in Polk City and will be glad to give a helping hand.
Jack
863-206-3838
What was awesome is watching several very knowlegeable people discussing this problem from afar. Great job guys.
Wow you guys amaze me and what a valuable service this website is to all busnuts. Great job guys my hats off to you all. I am slowly becoming a desktop diesel mechanic because of all you guys, and when I do get my first bus I'll be much better prepared thanks to you and BCMBB
WVaNative
well, while you are here, there are about 4 buses for sale. i know of one good old bus that the owner is willing to part with for under $10,000. completely done gmc and i think in good running condition. he's just too cold and cantankerous to drive it much. so off it goes.
i was trying to find a way to trade it out for my van so i'd have a spare bus for my parents. can't be sure it'd be easy to pull with my eagle and keep the fuel down.
Tom, Please send me the contact information on the one for 10K, I know of someone looking for one.
Thanks,
Paul
Quote from: white-eagle on January 14, 2010, 06:39:37 AM
well, while you are here, there are about 4 buses for sale. i know of one good old bus that the owner is willing to part with for under $10,000. completely done gmc and i think in good running condition. he's just too cold and cantankerous to drive it much. so off it goes.
i was trying to find a way to trade it out for my van so i'd have a spare bus for my parents. can't be sure it'd be easy to pull with my eagle and keep the fuel down.
If it runs just have Fran and Bandit ride in it and help push when needed! ;D
Your welcome Fran! (remember I didn't get any of those homemade PEANUT BUTTER cookies! ;))
;D BK ;D