I got a call this afternoon from my cousin to inform me they caught their 17 year old foster son selling parts off my buses to a recycler. They have receipts for at least 3 radiators & Alum iron mix. He took the radiators in yesterday & the recycler claims to have already torched them up.
I have no idea what else the boy has taken in. I'll be going to the orphanage in the morning to assess the damage.
Since we have the receipts, I will be pressing charges. The boy has spent time in juvie before for stealing from his foster mom's parents - they pressed charges & he had to pay restitution.
Do I have any recourse with the recycler? I mean, really, how could a 17 year old have all this heavy equipment stuff to turn in? Shouldn't the recycler have questioned a minor more?
I am so disgusted that the recyclers encourage this theft & vandalism by providing a demand for the goods. I would love to be at least a deterrant for future missdeeds.
I believe this boy is responsible for all the other vandalism that has occurred. But I can't prove it. I can prove the theft of the radiators tho, so I'm gonna pursue that as best I can.
The boy, "Chris', had a friend help, that friend has been helpful so far - I hope he continues to be . . . .
Any practical suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Kyle,
You will likely require the services of a lawyer. First take your evidence to a magistrate and see if they will issue a warrant for the arrest of the boy and the recycler. You may also want to touch base with the local District Attorney to make sure he is willing to prosecute everyone involved. Of course none of this will get your materials back to you and they are likely irreplacable. Darn shame some of today's youths can't seem to find any productive entertainment when they are unsupervised.
Good Luck. I am not a big fan of our local legal system. I hope yours is much better than mine.
Will
In the North, that being North Carolina they pasted some laws about copper scrap because of the stealing of power lines and grounding at Cell phone tower sites. So check the laws about cell towers and powerlines. But the most they require is ID. The scrap yard around here video cameras also for ID. That may provide more evidence. Wish you luck.
Art
Around here in Minnesota they require photo ID and they are supposed to pay by check. I would think a check would only slow down a thief a little as they'll just take it to a check cashing store.
I have to admit the scrap dealer I use still gives me cash, but mostly I bring in $20 or $30 worth at a time. When I brought in $60 worth they gave me a check which I just put in the bank.
I think scrap dealers are used to dealing with low lifes and theives. I won't patronize the scrap dealers in North Minneapolis because many of their clients look like the scum of the earth. It doesn't help that they have a line of junker vehicles half away around the block waiting in line to get into the place.
Scrap dealers like these have got to know that a fair bit of what they accept is of questionable origin.
I feel your pain, my idiot SIL scrapped my Olds touring sedan, I would have sent him to prison except my daughter was with him and didn't know that I hadn't given him permission to turn a 13,000 dollar car into a 178 dollar scrap ticket. According to the dealer they have no interest in history only usable scrap, I'm convinced tho that the car is stashed away someplace but the police couldn't come up with it.
Adding to another post.
Most scrap places keep record of drivers license.
A record of every dollar and type of scrap paid to that person.
Lonnie
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 07, 2010, 04:51:42 PM
I got a call this afternoon from my cousin to inform me they caught their 17 year old foster son selling parts off my buses to a recycler.
Do I have any recourse with the recycler?
Yep. Call him tomorrow and tell him you're suing for $5000 per radiator unless they are returned. They are original antique parts, with a value far beyond the cost of scrap.
He bought those parts from a MINOR CHILD, which opens him up for all kinds of hurt, including losing his license to operate, jail time, and having his tail stomped by other recyclers, who really really really are tired of being showcased on the news as being crooks. Rumor hazzit that one Southern California scrap dealer was dragged out into the middle of the desert and given the chance to walk back to where he could get a ride home -- either 20 miles by road or 10 miles across country -- and informed that if he told anyone who did it, the next time it would be a 100 mile walk back.
But that's just a rumor . . .
It is pretty hard for the scrap guy to return the radiators if he already cut them up. I see no reason why the scrap guy would lie about the radiators. I can't believe he stands to make enough profit on a few radiators to not just return them in exchange for his cash back.
Have the police or sheriff gone to the scrap guy and asked for the radiators back since they are stolen property?
Hi Kyle,
Sorry for your troubles! I hope this boy can somehow turn his life around but, not likely.. :(
I have no advice to offer you but, wish you luck!
Nick-
Kyle, at some point it all evens out, my SIL took the grandkids christmas presents back to the store on christmas eve and then went out and got drunk, he got picked up for drunk driving and now is in a world of hurt, it all comes around at some point.
Kyle,
Sorry to hear about this happening, it is as if you needed anything more to happen considering your orphanage. What is the most valuable piece of property this kid owns if anything? Would it satisfy you to take it off his hands in exchange for what he has done to you. If the value is nothing to you then do what your heart says, he has to pay and will one way or other.
Offer to take his personal property "Free & Clear" with a signed title if one is involved in exchange for his freedom, especially when he finds out this is grand larceny with the replacement cost of the radiators. Perhaps he has expensive musical instruments, speaker systems, TVs, what he prides the most in life. Offer to take this in exchange for dropping any charges of his theft, then sell them if they are no good to you. Let him know the price of replacing has to be no less than about $1700 for each radiator.
This will probably continue to happen by other freaking thieves in the future with the cost of metals going up etc. & they must know you do not live next to the orphanage boneyard. Good luck buddy with what ever you decide.How did he know where your orphanage is anyhow??
Let us know how this all turns out.
Gary
Kyle,
Sorry to hear about this!
I have a few suggestions.....but they all risk jail time for the wrong person... ;)
I have a very, very low opinion of thieves....and no use for them.
Cliff
for this kid and cody's s.i.L i have only 2 words...
"BLANKET PARTY"
Kyle,
I believe I would take that bottle launcher you had at Arcadia, Shove the pipe up his -ss twist his arms to make fins,
Pour about 2 gallons of water down his throat,crank the air pressure to max.When the water comes out his ears,pull the cord!!! ;D ;D ;D
My opinion, let me know if I should modify the one I am building!!!!!
Ed
Good thing he didn't know about the frame or he might of brought a saw and started cutting. >:(
First step though may be to ask the cousin what they want to do about it. Inform them of replacement cost etc.. They are making a riff in the family. you will just be riding the wave
Don't say what your gonna do about it. If the answer is not good enough, then do what you have to do. Make sure you hold collateral if there is some sort of agreement. IE hold the boys car and cell phone until he holds up his end, then you can give it back or something like that.
Also consider cutting off his lines of secrecy, you can distribute public knowledge about him around his neighbors and the other neighbors around there. :(
Tuff love...do him a favor before he gets to far to bring back...
That is sad Kyle to relpace the stuff is going to be almost impossible to replace, my way of think somebody had to tell the kid how much it was worth for him to go through all the work.
Scrap dealers are like pawn brokers they bend the law for their own benefit some times
good luck
Quote from: belfert on January 07, 2010, 08:06:36 PM
It is pretty hard for the scrap guy to return the radiators if he already cut them up. I see no reason why the scrap guy would lie about the radiators. I can't believe he stands to make enough profit on a few radiators to not just return them in exchange for his cash back.
Have the police or sheriff gone to the scrap guy and asked for the radiators back since they are stolen property?
I had some aircraft parts stolen a few years ago. The guy said that they had been cut up. A week later, they were returned to me by the sheriff's department, who found them on the shipping dock. Scrap guys NEVER cut up ANYTHING that they can find a seller for, and you can bet that he figures some big radiators like those will sell to someone.
Kyle,
Dude I am so sorry to hear about this. Sounds like a tough spot to be in fer sure! (tuffer than having to pay the real owner for a bus that's already been paid for!)
If it were me I'd have a private talk with the foster parents (your cousin) and see what they think is best. As it may end up being them paying you the restitution if he fails too.
Also keep in mind that this punk is 17 and already developing a criminal attitude and history, so he may decide to bail on you/them/& the system and run away. Which would make it even harder to collect.
Now with all these considered if it is decided to press charges the prosecuting attorney will be on your side so you won't need to hire one.
Also since he is a ward of the state they may be financially responsible instead of your cousin! (for this you may need to have your own attorney ;D)
Whatever route you take tread softly until you are sure it's the way to go, then hammer him. He needs to learn now or he'll end up being a career criminal! (and still might, but at least you'll have tried.)
I'd also check into having the scrap buyer on the hook for an unlawful transaction of buying stolen goods from a minor. (which as said above will send a msg to the buyers that they will be held responsible for buying stolen goods! Especially when they immediately destroy the evidence so it can't be returned!)
Good luck, and let me know if you need a under age "educator" I know one who gets in fights jest because he's bored. (and he'll do anything Uncle Bryce asks him too! ;D)
>:( BK :o
My suggestion: Calculate the replacement cost of any missing parts (including professional custom fabrication where needed), and, as a family, agree that each dollar must be translated into an hour of labour spent by the kid working on the buses. Start with unskilled stuff (leaning on a broom or wirebrush), and maybe move him on to more productive work if he shows any aptitude. If he displays the right attitude you could maybe even introducing some extra 'cash payment' jobs in amongst the 'payback' work.
Handled properly it could do the kid a lot of good, and help get your projects moving too.
I recently read of a scheme here where young vandals are set to work planting trees and repairing the very recreation ground equipment that they originally damaged. Apparently they not only stopped causing similar damage themselves but became a very effective force in the community, stopping anyone else damaging 'their' trees or 'their' equipment.
Jeremy
Kyle,
I am very sorry to hear about this. That is very rough. I agree with the general consensus. Something should happen to the kid. No doubt about it. What? I don't know. Just make sure you get your rads back/replaced.
BK, I figured that you were gonna offer to come down, bring your lawyer, attack vehicles, yourself, and all your personnel, and settle things ;D.
God bless,
John
kyle sorry to hear about this hope all is not lost years ago i was paying to store my bus fenced in the guy lived there i was the
only guy storeing i would go check on it one day i stoped buy all ok a week later all wireing cut out with a ax dash gone alumminon
missing i was sick called a tow truck moved it to my house that day. now i am rebuilding it i came close to scraping the bus
make that punk pay
Kyle here in Kentucky we have a law against anyone purchasing or in possession of stolen merchandise no matter what it is. Go to the local police officials and if they are no help go to the state police. This is police matter.
Yea, 10-4..... POLICE MATTER..... I Bet You Money The Radiators Are Still On The Property Of The Scrap Dealer. I Bet You Money !!!!.
First Off They Will Hold That Stuff Until The Price Is Right To Sell. So Dont Believe There Gone. Someone Is Lieing (Lying)?
The Thing That Bothers Me The Most Is You Said......Other Metals....
I Hope This Punk Didnt Strip Your Buses To Bad.
Im Very Sorry To Here That Has Happen. I Have Had It Happen. And It Could Happen Again. STILL.
Best Of Luck.
JOHN
Kyle,
Here is another idea for you. Get the dimensions of the rad. Get another friend, that the scrap dealer hasn't seen before, and then have him go down there. He would just act like a normal person, looking for a radiator that size. The guy could say something like, "I know it is a long shot, but do you happen to have a radiator this size? I am willing to pay good money for it...yada..yada..yada."
Just an idea. Might work, if he still has them. Still take the matter to the police...
God bless,
John
John, you might even want to inquire about the radiators remotely using the Internet. Get online and access the metal scrapers network looking for a large radiator. These guys also may respond better if someone contacts them remotely or through another dealer? Just a thought!
If and when they say they have the units, contact the police and get them to go with you to the yard!
Very interested in how this whole thing works out as I think this type of vandalism and criminal activity is about to get a bunch worse in 2010.
Grant
string him up by the eye lids and kick him in the balls till he blinks. I too have no toleance for this, and I hope you have a better legal system than we have up here, which if it is I would pursue. Where I live there is no backing for the law. We simply just get a police file # so we can claim insurance, so our premiums can go up.
Grant
Tuff love...do him a favor before he gets to far to bring back Now that's the ticket. Don't be an enabler, which is what you will be unless you bear down.
I had a similar situation, as I recently related on this board. I let my attorney do the driving....he has the licence. So here is what he did sorta. First he sued everybody even remotely associated with that shop. The partners were all culpable and the wife had a history of paying his help when they showed up at his home begging for their wages. He even sued "parties unnamed". They all owed me $35K supposedly. You would be amazed at how cooperative all those folks became and how they "volunteered" to give depositions and testify. They paid the $600 for their depositions to my attorney so he at least got something back for all his trouble near the outset. I was delighted and I got to sit in the room while he grilled them. They all had attorneys so the coughed a couple grand for that also. Served them right for associating with a guy they knew was a dirt bag.
You NEED your little thief to be scared enuf to rat out the scrap dealer.The dealer is the one with deep pockets. Your attorney will find out from the cops if the guy is a serious suspect and how long he has been dirty. You have heard me say "your attorney" a number of times....get it? Tell him he can have all the money above the value of the rads and his 30% till you get even. You may not have to invest a dime in this. Some will say that this is a despicable way to behave and I say that those people are "repeat victims most often.
Your att. will also have a hand in causing your local law to stretch their legs. Let him be your wise council. Just don't start off with "now I don't really want to hurt the lad's feelings or possibly alienate the rest of the enabling family", if they are. And if one guy turns you down try another and compare what they tell you. Your first consultation is free so you have no excuse.
Attorneys are despicable, unethical, merciless, corrupt prixks. But yours will be your PRIXK. Hire a gun and sleep well.
Oh and at his trial take an opportunity to speak to address the court. Share that juvi has done no good and ask "his honor" to treat him like a man and trust that the system will work better in a penitentiary. Don't forget to turn to the little scumbag and, with a soulfull look, tell him its for his own good. Then thank His Honor for protecting the family. See where that goes and maybe present to the court all the letters from the rest of the family, expressing their own concerns, gave you after speaking to your Prixk...er... attorney. " Its outta my hands....the attorney is making all the decisions...wish I could help and please don't hold this against me." If they were going to help they won't be offended and if they didn't intend to help where is your loss?
Your little scamp, traveling in the circles he does, may know of others that the dealer has purchased stolen property from. Your perp rats the dealer and the dealer rats the other scum in the "hood' and the DA decides who he wants. You little community activist you.
How's that?
John the meek and all set to inherit
For what it is worth, I bought a new radiatior for a 4103 five years ago and it cost me 1800.00. I believe that I had the top and bottom tanks so the replacement cost for a complete radiator would be more.
Kyle called me last night and again this morning after he had been to see his buses. This story is truly heart breaking to me because I know how difficult it is to locate parts for these things. I am helping him develop replacement costs. I can not think of a punishment strong enough for these idiots. Well I guess I can, but our pussy justice system will never do what is truly needed to prevent crime. Everyone is too worried about lining their own pockets or getting reelected to do what is right. If I seem bitter, I am. Our house was robbed back in April, and the world looks totally different to me now days. We did fine with insurance, but my wife will never get her most cherished personal items back, and that still pisses me off. I hope this little bastard rots in jail. I feel no sympathy for animals like this.
Tom McNally
Sorry to hear about this Kyle. Guess the laws concerning scrap metal aren't as strict by you as they are here in FL. Just yesterday I took some brass key blanks to a recycling plant and MAN, you should have seen what I had to do! I had to show my driver's license, my business license AND I had to give them my thumbprint in one of those electronic scaners. Maybe you should check to see what the procedures are in SC.
They are doing this in FL just because of the theft that was taking place. I've heard stories of whole a/c units being ripped off for the copper pipes inside. I have had to rekey houses that were vacated and saw where someone had broke through walls to get the copper wiring. It's sad!
Btw Kyle, I accidentally turned in those bubble gum machine covers. (I was wondering why I got so much $ for those keyblanks) ;D JUST KIDDING!!! I did order the locks for them. I'll let you know when they arrive.
Keep us posted on how this develops.
I know this bit of unsolicited drama in my life will delight a few small minded fools. In spite of that, I'm sharing so I can gain some insight into how to best proceed & hopefully, help others who may be attending the same school of hard knocks elsewhere.
Well, I went to the recycler today, (a small remote place that separates the metals into bins that get picked up & taken elsewhere) . . . They provided me with copies of the receipts. Knowing who took it in is not the problem, we even have a phone message of him confessing. Restitution for the stolen property, stopping it from happening again, suppressing my primal desires, etc are my current issues.
A little more info:
He had 3 of the radiators the boy took in this week already 'processed' to separate the metals – he used a gas axe to cut all the bolts off – made a real mess of the caps. The cores looked bad – while they were holding water before, they'd require loads of work to reseal after the abuse they'd just endured. So, I left the cores, since I don't have any use for them now anyway – or a place to put them. Maybe I should have kept them & sold them later . . . . I don't know, I was plenty bothered at loosing so many bay doors & NOS skins.
While I was looking at the buses today, I noticed the bays had been cleared out. One of 'em had an original transmission in it. I found it at the scrap yard, but it had been roughed up pretty badly – the most obvious damage was a chunk busted off the bellhousing. I did get it back.
He also took in a fan drive gearbox – (Ohio Gear sells only replacement gears & shafts & that will set you back ~$2000.00 ! & you still have to find bearings & seals. The fan mounts on a special vibration damper hub that is also unique . . . )
All total, he got $840.34 for MY stuff.
A partial rundown of the 7 trips made to the recycler.
But 507 pounds of clean aluminum (upper bay doors @34# each, a new front bumper, & my stash of new old stock door skins) long gone for $112.00
127# of "irony aluminum" (lower bay doors) long gone for $19.05
924# of radiators for $515.60
1612# of #2 steel for $112.84
69# of copper wire long gone for $21.40
Yes, I did file a report with the sheriff. Yes, I fully intend to press charges. Yes, I intend to secure the services of an attorney to pot all parties involved on notice I expect to be compensated for my losses.
Tom & I discussed the probable cost of replacing what was stolen – assuming I can find someone willing to sell . . . The number floored me! I'm gonna have to do some more looking into the actual value.
All things considered, it could have been worse & I still have most of the bay doors that were still attached to the buses.
Living well is the best revenge . . . . .
Sufficient restitution will greatly assist in that!
I bet once the value of these items is totaled, this cousin is looking at felony charges...
Glenn
Each radiator was felony by itself!
The first trip with the bay doors was felony several times over.
The fact that he made 7 trips shows repeat offences.
The number Tom & I came up with exceeded $30,000 replacement value. 2 other knowledgeable sources told me they WOULD NOT sell any their spares for the low prices Tom & I used. So, what now? The kid is 17 & thinks he is a minor & thereby protected . . . . Too bad for him that the laws in this state consider 17 an adult. (But the parents are responsible for them until they turn 18! Go figure! )
Kyle, I am sick for you and us as Scenicruiser nuts!
An madder than hell that scrappers don't seem to care what they ruin!
Jack
Tough deal indeed. What I generally try to do is treat people as they have treated me. Obviously this individual could care less about you. You will never get in return what you have lost. Nothing I hate worse than a thief. I hope you purue this as hard as you can.
I feel your pain.
You might want to consider making a claim against the home owners insurance policy on the land the busses were stored on. A lot of these policies cover damage and theft to personal property stored there. If it is your property contact your company and if it is the cousins then make them supply you with their policy info and submit a claim, along with a copy of the police report. You will more than likely get only a small percentage of the actual costs back but any little bit might help.
Not sure how the Carolina work but if you sue the kid you may get a judgement against him that will not expire until it is paid off, you may be able to garnish any future wages and stuff...asuming he straightens himself out and makes something out of himself from the experiance.
Here in Florida the only time he will really serve in jail is during the booking phase, probation likely if it is a first arrest. You may get court ordered restitution from the courts on that criminal case......but being a juvie, your cousin is going to prolly be responible for that. Gotta weight to pros and cons of that yourself.
They are parked on my property. It is undeveloped agricultural land & nothing is insured.
The boy had help, so I'll let my attorney advise the best course of action. That way I can "hide" behind the lawyer with a "It is out of my hands, it is the lawyer calling the shots now" type of response.
Not too worried about family relations if they won't step up & do the right thing without a judge being involved. . . . .
Gottcha
Let the lawyer do what yer paying him to do.
Sounds like you have it covered. Best of luck.
Don't forget to show them lots of pictures of Pat McNeil's cruiser and maybe some of Tom's and what was the name of the guy out west that had the BEAUTIFUL black one he did an awesome ground up build on? Ray maybe?
Show them some good photos of them in their heyday, and what your future plans were and that should help with the "value" of them. FWIW HTH
>:( BK :o
Kyle:
We feel your pain. Whilst we were gone last year someone broke into the garage and removed some of my tools . Not much but the real pain is in knowing someone broke in. I feel frustrated and always looking over my shoulder when home and paranoid about locking things up.
I know this does not help much, but stay solid and do what you have to do.
Regards mike L Dunnellon FL
I hope for you it doesn't come down to between family and lawyers that will never heal but I do feel for you.
good luck
I feel for ya! I can't imagine what I would do in your situation. Go for the throat sounds like a good idea. I hope you get satisfied for your pain and suffering, although the feeling of being violated will never go away.
Paul
Kyle,
I'll add some more thoughts to this thread. How about keeping a bus running and when the opportunity arises, throw the little weasely S.O.B under the bus while its moving!
As for the internal family relationships, if the others don't acknowledge the thefts by the little S O B, actively participate in locating and paying for replacement parts, well then I see no problem in taking them off the Christmas card list for the foreseeable future. Sounds like a bunch of low lifes if I ever heard of one.
OK, I feel your pains and I am also a ScenicCruiser fan. I have neither the time, talent, or resources to tackle converting one of them. Having said that, I believe they are the most beautiful expression of the bus builders art I have ever seen.
I'd also get a restraining order against him and anyone else you identify to keep them off your property. That way if they are caught coming back for "seconds" it will be criminal trespassing.
Good Luck and God Speed. I'll keep you in my thoughts until you have resolution of this mess. Keep posting if it helps relieve your stress and frustration.
Will
The problem Kyle will have is no court in the USA is going to give him what the stuff is worth it is going to be based on what he paid for the buses and their value on the open market.
The systems sucks but that is the way it works if the damage exceeds the value of the bus you are going to get the value of the bus and that will probably cost 2 year of attorney fees and if the people don't have money all you are get is a piece of paper for your efforts and if the guys move to Texas you can not have garnishment of any wages there and some other states also that do the same.
Judements are just good for so many years some states 5 years some 7 years without renewal a PITA
good luck
So with the Luvrbus post, throwing the S O B under the bus is sounding better.
Quote from: luvrbus on January 09, 2010, 12:09:20 PM
The problem Kyle will have is no court in the USA is going to give him what the stuff is worth it is going to be based on what he paid for the buses and their value on the open market.
The systems sucks but that is the way it works if the damage exceeds the value of the bus you are going to get the value of the bus and that will probably cost 2 year of attorney fees and if the people don't have money all you are get is a piece of paper for your efforts and if the guys move to Texas you can not garnished any wages there and there are other states also that do the same.
good luck
OK so I see where Kyle paid $10,000 for that one over there from his good friend Clifford in AZ (+ shipping to get it home), and $10,000 for that over there from his other good friend BK in TN + shipping to get it home), and $7,500 + shipping for that one over there (really) from his 2 friends (can't remember their names), and $8,000 + shipping for that one there from his good friend FL Cliff, and so on and so on......
I'll be happy to write a bill of sale for the one he bought from me!;D
anyone else? ;)
Oh yeah and I was trying to buy it back, but we hadn't settled on a price yet, but I had just offered $15,000 & a freshly rebuilt 8V92 DDEC for it and I really believe Kyle was going to accept it before parts came up missing! ;)
:o BK ;)
Funny you mentioned it, BK. I was just going to offer 20K for one of those incredibly rare buses. But that was before they got vandalized. Too bad that happened.
God bless,
John
(just kidding)
There was the vandalism, sure. But how will the court treat the parts inventory that was stolen from inside the bus?
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 09, 2010, 01:22:59 PM
There was the vandalism, sure. But how will the court treat the parts inventory that was stolen from inside the bus?
That was to be included in our deal.... "No parts, no $20,000 fresh 8V92 DDEC ;) !"
;D BK ;D
Check and see if SC has laws against damage to historical items. This would be another way to get the Juvenile's and increase the value of the damage.
Art
Reading this thread has made me ill. I hope there is a way you can be made whole.
To be properly prepared for this battle, I need replacement prices.
I need credible prices. But, just how do you put a price on the irreplaceable?
I can only ask those that have parts let me know what they are really worth to them. . . .
So, here goes . . . .
Anyone have any scenicruiser bay doors for sale?
Front bumper?
Rub rails for the lower bay doors?
Clutch?
Transmission?
Drive shaft?
Fan drive assy including the special Ohio Gear Box & fan blade hub?
Radiator?
A/C condenser?
Thanks
Kyle;
Sorry to hear this happened. You can put me down as a friend that you bought one from and you it from cal to your place.
I believe you paid around $12,000.00 for it didn't you.
I think a Glok 9 mil looks real good to me. I believe they need to bring back cowboy Justice don't you.
Don
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 11, 2010, 12:36:42 PM
To be properly prepared for this battle, I need replacement prices.
I need credible prices. But, just how do you put a price on the irreplaceable?
Check with the antique truck clubs for sources on Big Iron parts. Things like radiators are still being made (they can custom fab anything). Get hold of the vendors and get written quotes for replacement parts.
Contact Ted at Coach Maintenance in Williams, CA for info on doors, etc, he usually has several Scenics there.
Kyle
I don't know about scenic radiators but a big one for my 04 was 2,200 bucks.
uncle ned
ps that was just the core used my top and bottom
Kyle, me solution comes with consequences, If I knew I wouldn't go to jail or burn in Hell, I would help you take care of this once and for all. >:(
Kyle, I have been following this and really feel for you. Does the family involved have the resources to make it worth while to go after them for $$$. I am pretty sure the law is on your side with this. The most common thing happening the last few years has been the theft of outside HVAC units. There should be a lot of data about what the judgements have been. This seems to me kind of like your case. If some one steals the HVAC unit that is 20 years old I do not think the court takes the age into consideration when deciedeing what the crook has to pay back. In the papers I have read where a thief took the copper pipes out from under a house, the thief probably got $20 for it but it cost 1000 to replace so the damages were $1000. What did the cop detectives tell you. I think I remember you telling me you just installed those radiators and bay doors new didnt you?
Good luck, we feel for ya.
Charles
Maybe you can get prices for the sheet metal including fabrication & delivery from IBP?
Just a thought..
Thanks guys.
Rounding up the prices is very time consuming. I hate feeling like I'm wasting other's time asking for prices when I know i can't buy it any time soon. . .
Steve at IBP was super fantastic on the phone today. He quickly sent me a fax of the body panels in question to be sure he understood what I was needing. I will be buying parts from them, but it won't be as soon as I'd like. :(
While revenge is a dish best served cold, living well is truly the best revenge.
Sadly, the kids parents have as close to nothing as you can get, so that's a dry tit.
However, I have an attorney paid up to shake the trees & we'll see what falls out.
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 13, 2010, 08:08:16 PM
Thanks guys.
Rounding up the prices is very time consuming. I hate feeling like I'm wasting other's time asking for prices when I know i can't buy it any time soon. . .
Steve at IBP was super fantastic on the phone today. He quickly sent me a fax of the body panels in question to be sure he understood what I was needing. I will be buying parts from them, but it won't be as soon as I'd like. :(
While revenge is a dish best served cold, living well is truly the best revenge.
Sadly, the kids parents have as close to nothing as you can get, so that's a dry tit.
However, I have an attorney paid up to shake the trees & we'll see what falls out.
As a "foster child" he is actually a ward of the state! (after all they pay for his care and his medical expenses don't they?) I'd have the "shaker" see if the state weren't liable for his "restitution"!
I wouldn't be surprised if the state has some of limitation of liability for acts done by wards of the state. The state would be opening itself up for all kinds of liability if they faced a civil suit every time a ward of the state committed a crime.
I really hope Kyle gets restitiution, but some of the stuff probably can't be replaced. Kyle might be able to buy parts from others, but now the next guy who needs that part can't buy one. It isn't like these parts are still being made.
Took me over 2 hours to get a good faith estimate from the radiator shop. (I'm not counting all the time spent calling around to find a shop that could do the work!)
I had to measure, sketch & photograph the radiator. Then I had to drive across town to the industrial radiator shop. He spent 30 minutes on the phone getting prices on cores & custom tanks.
The tanks & ends were so damaged by the recycler that they can't be repaired with confidence.
If I provide a machine drawing for the radiator, the estimate is $3,300 to $4,300.
I may be able to substitute something else & reduce the cost of the radiator, but that will take time to research & custom fabricate back in. . . .
The thieving punk was adopted by my cousin 5 or 6 years ago. The punk knows right from wrong, that's why he was sneaking around & telling lies.
Time will tell.
:)Kyle If the 4104 front bumper is the same I can help. I have one on a parts bus.
Quote from: 4104GA on January 14, 2010, 07:19:28 PM
:)Kyle If the 4104 front bumper is the same I can help. I have one on a parts bus.
Sounds like a good excuse for a visit ;D
Kyle a visit would be great so just tell me when but if not I plan to be there for the SEbusnuts spring rally and
delivery is possible. Come on down and visit.
Kyle,
You will never find a nicer couple to visit than Sam & Sandy. Jack
Jack, you said, "Kyle,
You will never find a nicer couple to visit than Sam & Sandy. Jack'
How bout' that Jack and Paula couple from somewhere down in South Florida? ;)
Jack
Seems like most of the people that we have met that have buses have been pretty darn nice! Old buses seem to either attract nice people or brings out the best in people. ;D Either way it is great.
Talked to my attorney yesterday - looks like we may have a good case against the recycler, but court is like a game of high stakes poker . . . . We'll have to see what plays out.
Next, I met with the detective - he said that with the evidence I have against the thief, he won't need a confession to get a conviction.
After that, I went to the orphanage - I saw no further evidence of further theft or vandalism.
And, to top it all off, the resident deputy called last night. Seems the thief wanted to talk to me. He wanted me to drop the charges & offered to pay full restitution. I asked how he planned to come up with over $40,000 & he said I could have his whole paychecks until the debt was paid. He doesn't have a job & has dropped out of the last chance alternative high school. The thief confessed to taking my stuff & admitted to knowing it was wrong at the time . . . .
After I finished talking to him, I told the deputy that I wasn't backing down any & my wishes were still for the thief to go through the criminal process. The deputy seemed pleased to hear I was still resolved to see this thru.
I'll keep y'all posted. . . .
Quote from: kyle4501
Talked to my attorney yesterday - looks like we may have a good case against the recycler, but court is like a game of high stakes poker . . . . We'll have to see what plays out.
Next, I met with the detective - he said that with the evidence I have against the thief, he won't need a confession to get a conviction.
After that, I went to the orphanage - I saw no further evidence of further theft or vandalism.
And, to top it all off, the resident deputy called last night. Seems the thief wanted to talk to me. He wanted me to drop the charges & offered to pay full restitution. I asked how he planned to come up with over $40,000 & he said I could have his whole paychecks until the debt was paid. He doesn't have a job & has dropped out of the last chance alternative high school. The thief confessed to taking my stuff & admitted to knowing it was wrong at the time . . . .
After I finished talking to him, I told the deputy that I wasn't backing down any & my wishes were still for the thief to go through the criminal process. The deputy seemed pleased to hear I was still resolved to see this thru.
I'll keep y'all posted. . . .
Good news! ;D
GREAT NEWS!
Even better! ;D
Uh sure
"you can have ALL my paychecks until it's paid in full" ;) But nothing from nothing is still nothing! :'(
YOU GO DUDE STICK TOO YOUR RESOLVE! If you don't he'll learn nothing, and you'll get nothing! And in the end nobody will have gained nothing! ;D BK ;D
Great news, Kyle. Keep it up. Maybe the little criminal will learn his lesson...
God bless,
John
I asked how he planned to come up with over $40,000 & he said I could have his whole paychecks until the debt was paid. He doesn't have a job & has dropped out of the last chance alternative high school.
[/quote]
Before you decide to NOT take the thief up on the generous offer, let's run some numbers. I am assuming that other than theivery, this person has few if any marketable skills. Therefore, the thief is most likely looking at a minimum wage job...if he can find one. I used $7.25 as the wage figure. Based on a 40 hour week that comes to $290 before taxes. If you take 30 per cent out for Uncle Sam, that takes $87 away...but for round numbers we will say an even $100 bill for the tax man. That leaves $190 per week based on a 40 hour work week. If the thief gives you all of the $190 it will take ONLY ~211 weeks or just a shade over 4 years to pay back $40,000. Of course you may have to loan some money for gas and soft drinks. ;D ;D
Sorry all, didn't do the quote correctly.
I gotta say that what he's going to learn is that he'd best not get caught next time, and he'll learn that from the other criminals that he hangs out with while in whatever lockup he goes to. Not that I think he shouldn't be punished, just that putting him in prison with a bunch of career criminals is far more likely to cement the bad behaviour and attitude, not change it, and smacks more of old testament retribution and revenge than new testament enlightenment. And no, I don't have any better ideas. I do think that kids have learned what they are going to be in life by the time they are about 6 years old, and I think the ones that seem to change their spots are few and far between. Truly a shame and a sad thing to have to go through.
Best of luck with this, honestly. Brian
What happened in my case was the guy got a reduced charge of receiving stolen goods because there wasn't an actual witness to him taking it. He did serve time under the Youth Offender's Act which allowed him to work outside of prison, but if he messed up full sentence was served. He did mess up twice and serve the rest of his sentence. He was serving for multiple crimes wound into one sentence.
You can request restitution so he cannot be let out of the system until it is paid back.
Also about his offer, you can remind him that if his word was good you would not be having this conversation, and that you do still love him.
Quotesmacks more of old testament retribution and revenge than new testament enlightenment
Huh?!?
Where in the New Testament do you find the notion that criminals should NOT receive the sentence of the appropriate govt authority? Indeed, the Apostle Peter said that one appropriate (in fact, God-ordained) function of govt. is the punishment of those who do evil (I Peter 2:14). The grace offered in the New Testament (and the OT as well, for that matter) deals with the ETERNAL consequences of sin, NOT the temporal. It also speaks to my personal right to personal vengeance. But it in NO WAY excuses an individual from the legal/criminal consequences of their actions.
Criminal prosecution is EXACTLY what this situation requires. If the judge also includes restitution as part of the sentence, even better. A jail term may be just what this individual needs to decide that better choices in the future are in his best interests. I know a number of upstanding citizens who were headed down the wrong road until a stint in the slammer slapped them in the face.
OTOH, if this individual does not respond positively to the sentence (whatever it may be) of the criminal proceedings, it indicates a far deeper flaw of character. At that point, it is even MORE important that there be a criminal record so that future acts are viewed by the court in the appropriate context of a repeat offender.
Removed
Where it the deterrant to theft if the only consequence of getting caught is to return what you were caught with?
If prison simply educates those incarcerated to be better criminals - the solution is to fix that problem, NOT stop incarcerating criminals. :o
What the justice system really needs is the return of "chain gangs" so those incarcerated can work off their debt to society. It would also give those incarcerated experience with personal responsibility.
I'm not going to back down on pressing charges. I am also preparing a folder to educate the judicial system about this busnut hobby & how these parts weren't old junk but rather they were parts of our history, a history worth saving. 8)
I am also going to ask for restitution - but thru the court system. He has already proved he isn't trustworthy. Maybe the court system will keep his income sources legal. I don't want restitution if it means he will be stealing it from someone else. :(
Branding is a great idea for repeat offenders. & I suppose 7 instances ought to count as a repeat offender.
As far as removal of body parts, I think I'd like to start with reproductive parts - no need for this dirt bag to be able to reproduce. Then I'd think if more was required, a lobotomy might be merited. . . .
PS, he is already hanging out with career criminals on the outside, so there goes the hope of sheltering him from that influence. . . :(
Kyle...best bumper sticker I ever saw said...
Stupid People...Shouldn't Breed!
Jack
I prefer a tough-love approach for punishment of useless folk. Hang'em...
I can say from experience that 'restitution' is another word for 'sucker'...you'll never see it unless someone interested in the kid wants to keep him out of jail and pays you directly.
The more likely scenario is that he and his buddy will just disappear.
Someone has probably mentioned that recyclers may have some exposure if improperly accepting scrap. I'll garuntee that he'll give more thought to what he accepts if he's hit with buying $10 grand worth of bus radiators.
Here in Charlotte, a favorite income producing pastime by the unwashed is stealing copper power cabling from street lights and aluminum condensers from heatpumps from new construction. They steal street light copper while the power is on. They're good. There are miles of interstate in Charlotte with no street lighting because it's too expensive to repair the damage.
JR
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 22, 2010, 09:07:47 AM
Talked to my attorney yesterday - looks like we may have a good case against the recycler, but court is like a game of high stakes poker . . . . We'll have to see what plays out.
Next, I met with the detective - he said that with the evidence I have against the thief, he won't need a confession to get a conviction.
After that, I went to the orphanage - I saw no further evidence of further theft or vandalism.
And, to top it all off, the resident deputy called last night. Seems the thief wanted to talk to me. He wanted me to drop the charges & offered to pay full restitution. I asked how he planned to come up with over $40,000 & he said I could have his whole paychecks until the debt was paid. He doesn't have a job & has dropped out of the last chance alternative high school. The thief confessed to taking my stuff & admitted to knowing it was wrong at the time . . . .
After I finished talking to him, I told the deputy that I wasn't backing down any & my wishes were still for the thief to go through the criminal process. The deputy seemed pleased to hear I was still resolved to see this thru.
I'll keep y'all posted. . . .
Kyle, I have found that most detectives are just as poed at thieves as the rest of us. The police are working 40 a week to make ends meet too. Some times they can be your best ally. How about getting the foster parents wages garnished? or maybe they have some homeowners insurance or equity in their home. When they agreed to take on a foster child they agreed to take on financial responsibility as well and some one that is destitute cannot show they are responsible people.
Hang in there and good luck!
Don't forget to throw in the picture from here,
http://www.hoytsmusic.com/ (http://www.hoytsmusic.com/)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hoytsmusic.com%2Froadsong.jpg&hash=265e5b2384858163b99fd1af8099f585d0a50903)
Quote from: jackhartjr on January 23, 2010, 04:58:38 PM
Stupid People...Shouldn't Breed!
Jack
:D
Reminds me of that movie, "Idiocracy" :D
Not to highjack the thread...but...a couple years ago a poster like the album came up on ebay, it was a BIN for $75.00...I was going to get it and give it to Kyle. I made them a pretty good offer, they declined...it is still there...still at $75.00.
Oh well!
JAck
JR, this is one of a group of pictures sent me by a trolley-related friend. It's an argument for keeping the power station on (normally 600-750 volts, DC).
Arthur
Quote from: Runcutter on January 24, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
JR, this is one of a group of pictures sent me by a trolley-related friend. It's an argument for keeping the power station on (normally 600-750 volts, DC).
Arthur
Justice can be harsh. Dude needed some insulation on those bolt cutters eh?
JR
Got a note from the detective saying the warrants are being obtained today. 8)
They already have the kid's statement. Now they have to determine who his accomplices were so they too can participate in taking responsibility for their actions. :o
I'm not sure how to keep the thieves away from the orphans - not without considerable additional expense. Fences ain't cheap & are easily defeated.
If you can't stop them, all that is left is having proof after the fact. There is no power there, so a wireless security camera that sends the images to a remote location is the only way to keep surveillance. Too bad the ones that can provide good enough resolution to identify the hoodlums are beyond my reach. :(
A dirtbag with no job, nothing to lose & all day to sneak around has a definite advantage over someone who works for a living when it comes to stealing the working man's stuff. >:(
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 27, 2010, 07:49:22 AM
I'm not sure how to keep the thieves away from the orphans - not without considerable additional expense. Fences ain't cheap & are easily defeated.
Mine fields are a pretty good deterrent . . . ;)
Seriously, you can set up sensor-activated spotlights (mount them on coaches) with an autodialer which will call your cell phone. For more security, you can set up a couple of webcams and a wireless aircard which will pump video to your computer at home. If there is no power at the site, use a laptop and solar panels (you would be surprised how little power you actually need, if you keep the screen turned off. Store power from the panels in a couple of bus batteries, and install them fully charged. You can get laptops cheap on craigslist.
Post a couple of signs around the perimeter saying "Webcam security system in use -- if you can read this, you are already being watched." You can also hook the computer up to a loudspeaker, and talk from your home computer to the would-be-thieves, so they know there's no point in going any closer..
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 27, 2010, 07:49:22 AM
A dirtbag with no job, nothing to lose & all day to sneak around has a definite advantage over someone who works for a living when it comes to stealing the working man's stuff. >:(
The rain, it falls upon the just
and
on the unjust fella;
But mostly on the just,
because
the unjust has the just's umbrella.
Quote from: Runcutter on January 24, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
JR, this is one of a group of pictures sent me by a trolley-related friend. It's an argument for keeping the power station on (normally 600-750 volts, DC).
That's what's known in the trade as a "crispy critter."
And it's not the voltage that does the work, it's the CURRENT. When you get a static electricity zap, that's thousands of volts but no current, but a charge as low as 54 volts can be fatal if it comes with enough amps. That's why accidentally shorting your wrench to ground when connecting your battery can eat up the wrench in a fraction of a second.
I spent two years looking at possible storage facilities before I bought a bus. They were all either not secure, too far away away, or too expensive (or all three). My main concern, though, was that I had been in that situation before and I knew that if the bus was any distance from my house the pace of work would slow to a crawl.
At one stage I had visited the yard of a small local coach operator to enquire about storage, and ended up having a long talk with the owner about buses. I'd told him that I was looking for a bus to convert and he'd suggested that if I could find a 'short' coach (ie. 8m or 10m long, rather than the usual 12 or 13m), it might make a much more usable and easily-handled conversion. I'd dismissed the idea at the time as the whole point of me converting a bus was to get a B-I-G vehicle, but much later I realised that a short bus might just be able to make the tight turn into the driveway of my house, which a full-size bus could never possibly have managed. Long story short, I bought one, and it did.
So I totally sympathise with the your storage security dilemma. Although there might be some things you can do to reduce the risks slightly, they can never be eliminated, and unfortunately no amount of surveillance cameras will put out the fire after the arsonist has set light to your buses.
Jeremy
PS, on the subject of metal theft, below is part of a press release I received this just morning (occasionally we get such things due to being in the magazine trade):
ProRail will be deploying SelectaDNA's superior technology to mark trackside metals with the product's unique DNA signature, which is highly resistant to sunlight, withstands temperatures of up to 1,000°C and can be identified and analyzed on the spot.
The unique chemical composition of the marking can be identified with a portable DNA scanner. The DNA marking is immediately visible under ultraviolet (UV) light and contains metal microdots with an engraved coding that can be analyzed with a small USB-microscope.
This technology provides Police with robust and immediate forensic proof of where stolen metal has come from, thus enabling them to prosecute criminals using an indisputable chain of evidence.
The detection and analysis technology can also be made available to scrap metal dealers so they can check for markings on metal being offered to them.
Quote from: BG6 on January 27, 2010, 09:13:45 AM
Quote from: kyle4501 on January 27, 2010, 07:49:22 AM
I'm not sure how to keep the thieves away from the orphans - not without considerable additional expense. Fences ain't cheap & are easily defeated.
Mine fields are a pretty good deterrent . . . ;)
Seriously, you can set up sensor-activated spotlights (mount them on coaches) with an autodialer which will call your cell phone. For more security, you can set up a couple of webcams and a wireless aircard which will pump video to your computer at home. If there is no power at the site, use a laptop and solar panels (you would be surprised how little power you actually need, if you keep the screen turned off. Store power from the panels in a couple of bus batteries, and install them fully charged. You can get laptops cheap on craigslist.
Post a couple of signs around the perimeter saying "Webcam security system in use -- if you can read this, you are already being watched." You can also hook the computer up to a loudspeaker, and talk from your home computer to the would-be-thieves, so they know there's no point in going any closer..
If you're going to go this route I'd go for a netbook type with a SSD (solid state drive) those use very insignificant amounts of energy.
Kyle,
It seems things are progressing well. Really glad to hear that. Lest we all forget, it is "TORT" law that is use to recover damages. Can you just hear that scrap dealer lamenting lawyers and their unscrupulous law suits just out to unjustly enrich themselves at some poor businessman's expense. Yep, we sure gotta stop this system of corruption. Tongue in cheek on that statement, now.
John
If you install this unique security system, it could be great protection, even against people !! Enjoy and laugh.
http://www.airfarce.com/audio/unplugged/Track07.ram (http://www.airfarce.com/audio/unplugged/Track07.ram)
LOL ;)
The little dirtbag was quite smug about his freedom last night as he was flaunting it in front of his parents when they picked up their youngest from daycare (he had no other reason to be there).
Well, the punk was arested this morning. 8) I wish I could have seen the look on his face.
He probably won't get a bond hearing until tomorrow.
Will be interesting to see what his bond is set at & if it gets posted.
I hope he hates the accommodations enough that he truly repents & accepts full responsibility for his actions. Hey, you never know. ::)
Maybe the orange pajamas will chaff him enough for him to change his habits . . . ;)
Kyle
Have you thought of giving him a soap on a rope. :D
It gets under my skin when someone detrays my confidence, and then appears to feel no remorse. One can only hope that someday someone will be able to get through the facade of fearlessness, and touch something that will effect change.
I am truly sorry for what you are experiencing, and as a director of a private school, I hear and see stories from people that make the hair on my neck just brissle. Times sure have changed.
I can guarentee that he'll come out a changed person, for the better or not, who knows, but one thing you do know for certain, he has to be held accountable for his actions, at some point we all have to take responsibility for what we do, to many young people seem to think they are above the system, it doesn't work that way. I've seen them all go thru the system at one time or another, some I've seen their dads come thru first, at one point in Marquette Branch Prison, I had 3 generations, the grandfather for murder, his son for bank robbery and his grandson for dealing drugs.
Bond has been set at $30,000.
His mother just called to inform me he had already called her (collect) to request a bail out. She said no. They don't have the money anyway. Not even $3000 for a bail bondsman.
He had already tried his girlfriend's parents, but they won't accept the collect call.
The accommodations in Juvie were very different than what he is experiencing now. He definitely isn't happy with the small cell & roommate.
Hopefully this time in jail will have a positive impact on his future. It is up to him to decide . . .
We're praying for the best outcome for all involved.
With a very limited connection to the juvenile justice system, my guess is that this young man's situation is almost hopeless. The true criminal thinker without empathy or remorse is not likely to change. It's a sad situation but you can bet he will spend the greater part of his life in prison.
I'm glad that the family is no longer enabling him. He will at first blame them for not caring about him. There is the slightest hope that someone will help him figure it out but not likely. I hate to see a young life wasted like that but I think it was inevitable.
Kyle,
I love it when a plan comes together. :P I was really hoping and pray'n for you there for a while. I have been sleeping well since you said you "hired a gun" and you shared that the law was calling you. The sad news is that if you are charged with capitol murder and have a first rate attorney and you have photographic evidence and eye witness testimony all on your behalf....your odds are still 50 50. If people are involved.... the system is imperfect. Same goes for monkeys. I think that the stats are that half of all capitol murder convictions are overturned on appeal. Fourteen percent of the men on death row are known to be innocent of the charges for which they are being executed. A friend told me that the problem with the system is that we wait too long to execute the scum. His thought was that if we kill them at the courthouse immediately after conviction then we could save all that money wasted on appeals and housing them and all that statistics crap about how many are innocent won't amt to a hill of beans. He is one of my most liberal friends. ::) :) :)
Be well Kyle and good luck,
John
The so called 'abuses' of the past decades brought about the appellate system we use now, the courts are so afraid of being wrong on a conviction they seem to go way overboard in making sure the convicts "rights" arn't stepped on, yeah, I know, what about the victims rights, they don't matter at that point unfortunately. One falsehood about the appellate system tho is that it can release a convict, only in very rare occasions does that happen, normally it will only result in a new trial, the appellate system doesn't determine guilt or innocence, the only thing they review is if there was an error of procedure in the trial such as the judge giving the jury wrong instructions or new found evidence that the material or witnesses had been tampered with, one error of procedure that will get the convict released is if the review of the transcript is so erronious that they are convinced beyond any doubt that the wrong man was convicted, your seeing that happening more often now that DNA testing is approved for court use. Luckily evidence in all capital cases is required to be preserved almost forever, I believe michigan law requires capital case evidence be preserved for 250 years, I know it's crazy to do that but there again how do you second guess judges.
Checked the orphanage again yesterday - no new evidence of anyone messing around. The briers are growing back nicely - that will help deter the curious.
An update:
Chris has been in jail for over 9 weeks now.
His court appointed attorney asked for me to agree to pre trial intervention. Due to his past of stealing from others, his dropping out of High school & the last chance high school, no job prospects & etc . . . I declined to agree to it. I figure it would only delay the trial for as long as it took him to violate the terms & have the deal rescinded . . . .
His lawyer tried to bully me concerning the legality of the buses being there. After informing him how incomplete his information was, I told him in no uncertain terms that I would not allow him to victimize me again. I then informed him that the criminal case was a matter of principal & that I would do what ever was required to ensure the proper persons are punished to the full extent of the law.
He then waived a preliminary trial, so it will stay in the circut court system. The solicitor said they would inform me when the trial date is set.
The solicitor offered him a plea to two 5 year felonies - as opposed to the current charge of two 10 year felonies.
The solicitor asked me if I could reduce the $ amount of the stuff taken. I told him that if I did that, it would not only undermine the credibility of the values I have worked so hard to compile, it would also further victimize me by dismissing the effort involved in compiling those numbers - which are fairly conservative considering the rarity & the time it took to collect the parts. I told him the court could determine their own number concerning restitution that fit his ability to pay - - However, his financial standing has no bearing on the value of the stolen property.
It will be interesting to see what the court system decides.
Nice update Kyle. It will be interesting to see how much wrangling will happen before it gets to the court.
not being an attorney, what does the "pretrial intervention" mean and what would that actually do?
I think that's were everybody gets together, says we was only kidding you've learned your lesson, Perp says you bet I have and I will be a good boy from now on, everybody sings a round of "Kumbyah" and he gets dismissed with time served.
Brian
Kyle,
Maybe you better change the title to Better day at the Scenicruiser Orphanage. Jack
PreTrial Intervention (PTI) as I understand the explanation to me-
Basically, the person caught with their hand in the cookie jar acknowledges their wrong doing, shows remorse, lets go of the cookies & agrees to pay restitution in a timely manner. They also agree to be on their best behaviour & not violate any laws or additional requirements stipulated as part of the PTI. There is a time frame associated with this PTI deal (usually less than 5 years). At the satisfactory completion of this time (good behaviour & all restitution paid), the felony charges are dropped & they will have a 'clean' record (as far as this incident is concerned). If he violates the terms, the original charges are reinstates & he is charged again & goes to court.
PTI is a one time only deal.
There is no way in the world i could pay this debt in 5 years, so I don't see him having a snowball's chance in hell of doing it either. - not without him turning to more crime. . . .
Jack, while it is a relief that the damage is stopped for now, it is still a sad day when you see all the sensless damage done & all the irreplaceable parts gone forever. The pool of repair parts is smaller than it should be, & that means there are 2 or 3 buses that can't ever be restored because the parts no longer exist.
Kyle that's pretty well what pre-trial intervention meant when some local punk broke into our fifth wheel years ago. For whatever reason we went through it - the crown strongly encouraged us to participate but it wasn't mandatory. Marilyn said ahead of time that she would consider it a success if she got the punk to cry and she succeeded. (she's really good) I have no idea whether the punk in question went on to a career in crime (likely) or reformed as a result of the PTI. Under the Canadian judicial system the fact that he was younger than 16 meant that about the best we could hope for was that he would cry. So I guess we got all we could have out of the deal.
An update, June 2010.
I was notified of the trial date ~18 hours before hand. I was in Hew Hampshire for work, so there was no way I could have made it to the court house in Lexington, SC.
The punk plead guilty as part of his plea deal.
He spent ~14 weeks in jail & is now out. He was sentenced to 5 years probation & has to pay court fees & $5000 restitution to me. The parole office is way understaffed, so I'm sure he will take advantage of that.
No, I don't expect to see a dime of that restitution. I do expect that he will be successful in talking his way out of going back to jail with the "in this economy, I can't get a job" excuse.
There needs to be some reform in how criminals are dealt with - If there were work camps that were set up to make 'going straight' easy by comparison, there would be fewer repeat offenders. . . . .
Color me thoroughly disgusted with the "criminal justice system" - it should be called something along the lines of 'the bureaucracy of criminal education & empowerment' with special recognition to the 'adding insult to injury of victims' department.
:( ::) >:(
Kyle,
Speaking from experience you will have to stay after the courts to collect the restitution. Once the trial is over the victim is prety much on his own. One of my employees stole about 5K worth of tools from me. He pleaded guilty on a pre-trial. The pawn shop got his 200 bucks back and I have received 25.00 in restitution over the past two years. If they can't find him he can't pay?
Removed
Kyle, get some sort of camera set up. You know the little $#!% is going to go back and try to teach you a lesson for keeping him in jail. find a way to photo the punk in the act, and then, maybe, just maybe the court system will figure out that he shows no remorse.
just my 2 cents... I could be wrong.
The court already knows what they are dealing with. The problem lies in the courts ability/ inability to do what is required to permanently change his mindset.
I did/ do have cameras. Court didn't care since punk confessed (I never said he was a smart one). The problem with cameras is if they are found before you get the pictures.
To get one that does the instant wireless download with high enough resolution to identify the perp . . . . well, that is a lot of money too . . .
He knows EVERYONE in the neighborhood is watching for him, so hopefully he will look elsewhere . . . .
The supreme court would probably rule any sort of effective punishment as unconsitutional. How many different ways to execute death row inmates have been ruled unconstitutional due to pain inflicted during the process? Hello, you're killing the guy (or gal)! Does anybody besides a few wackos care if the person endures a little pain during the process?
The other issue is cost. If you threw criminals in jail for longer periods a lot of people would complain about the extra taxes. California and other states are releasing criminals early to cut down on prison costs.
If it was up to me there would be public hangings on a regular basis like the old days. If someone is sentenced to hang take them directly from the courtroom to the gallows. Don't keep them in prison for a decade or two first. It costs more these days to put someone to death than to keep them in prison on a life sentence due to the appeals and such.
Quote from: belfert on June 08, 2010, 11:41:28 AM
. . . . . It costs more these days to put someone to death than to keep them in prison on a life sentence due to the appeals and such.
That is because the fox is in charge of the hen house
I think we should put us senoir citizens in jail. Free food,free medical care,no rent, checked on 24 hours a day.
Put the crooks in rest homes. cost about 5,000 dollars a month plus you pay medical bills and all else.
uncle ned
Uncle Ned for leadership role.
Ned, you figured out my retirement plan! :)