What are all the reasons why I would not want to use this hot water heater?
http://cgi.ebay.com/PROPANE-TANKLESS-HOT-WATER-HEATER-CAMPING-SHOWER-RV-NEW_W0QQitemZ300374070928QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45efb09690#ht_2988wt_930 (http://cgi.ebay.com/PROPANE-TANKLESS-HOT-WATER-HEATER-CAMPING-SHOWER-RV-NEW_W0QQitemZ300374070928QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45efb09690#ht_2988wt_930)
Obviously it would have to be mounted outside, maybe on the backside of the bays... or in the bay and vented with a chimney.
i'm sure it is a bad idea or else more people would be using them.
-Thanks
Someone out there has probably tried and used one of these and I even thought they would be great. Yes you would have to vent them out side some even have a fresh air intake so you could possible mount in in the living area in a closet with proper venting. But as to wether items like this that are made for residential use would stand up to the vibrations and bumps of a rv coach, no one knows. There has been no long term study. Good Luck.
well if "it's not really tested yet" is the worst reason... A $120 experiment dosen't sound like a bad deal. Cheap RV tank hot water heaters don't seem to hold up too well anyway.
how/where do we vent it? i think i could mount it underneath but the exuast may be problematic?
Quote from: desi arnaz on January 02, 2010, 07:33:12 PM
how/where do we vent it? i think i could mount it underneath but the exuast may be problematic?
well, there is a chimney on the top which could be routed to prevent the buildup of fumes...
I have a Paloma which is very similar to this one but is 20 years old. The only difference is that this one is electric start and mine is a pilot light which is a great improvement. I put mine is a bay and ran a duct out to a vent on the bay door. Given that there is no pilot light and these heaters run intermitantly I don't see what the danger is provide the exhaust is vented. To my mind there is less CO gas danger that cooking on a propane stove where you leave on for a lot longer that the hot water heater.
I wish I knew more about these water heaters, I've got a 30 gallon electric water heater in the bus that works on 120 volt electric, I fire it up in the morning and it seems to hold the heat for a long time, but I've picked up a whole house tankless heater that works off natural gas for jamies house, it calls for a 3/4 inch gas line so I'm scared at how much gas it might use lol, I guess it's just a tankless job lol. sorry that was bad lol but I'm watching the responses carefully, even an old dog like me can learn new stuff now and then.
First....It isn't approved. That must coast many hundreds of thousands so you only see these made by Bosch and the like.
Second.....It is NOT approved for RV use. NOT, I SAY...NOT! But then I don't think any of those home units are approved and lots of guys are installing them with great results.....so far. But I haven't yet heard any of the experts sounding alarms for that. Ever the shorty electric house water heaters aren't approved for "bouncing" down the road. But then, if I need to don a kidney belt to take a spin....well then we have other problems. Course, cause I didn't hear them doesn't mean they weren't speaking.....hearing loss, unnerstan.
This looks like a great idea. You are only missing the auto gas cutoff for propane leaks. Mount it in the bay and maybe plumb it in as an emergency spare. At $120 you can install two and have the emergency spare there.
Check out the Bosh units. They have a "power vent" accessory to push the ex out and even down. If this were in a bay it would vent out the side just like a furnace or water heater was intended by God.
This is another case of the Chinese out trading the Germans.
Where are the isolationists when you need them?
John
Cody,
The tankless are billed as being way more efficient than a tank. Given your comments, I expect that they use a lot of gas for a short period to achieve that efficiency. The 3/4 would not scare me but I would check on the BTU rating of that Pup....it might be for an apartment bldg. Check them out on line for all that efficiency hype.
John
John, it's a bosch unit for a home and it says it replaces a 40 gallon home unit, and yep it's approved lol, complete with a 5 inch vent, yep 5 inch lol. Box says it's an Aqua Star-125-BNG model, so far the box is unopened lol.
I have looked that one over in the big Home store. It was the absolute best. It needs that unrestricted exhaust as it pushes a lot of air through the burner when it is in high gear. Go and look at the specs and you will find that it needs the aux blower if your vert run exceeds such and such or if you put a single 90 degree bend in....I think it will only take "none" without help. The kit was $135 here a year ago.
Good luck with the install,
John
Glad to know it's ok, like I said I'm following this thread with interest, vested interest, as I've already got a fair initial investment going, as far as the install I'll let somebody that knows what they are doing take care of the install, but I've got a natural gas line right by where it's going along with a masonary chimney right beside it that can have the proper liner or whatever it needs installed.
The linked page says it will give a 45 degree rise in water temp?
That would be warm water, not hot?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
BW,
The professionals install these in "series" to get a 90 degree bump. No telling what they are professionals at. :P How did you dry out that mouse? ??? Expiring minds and all that... ::)
Jojm
On the Paloma that I have it has the same size gas line as the other propane units on my bus( stove and heater).When you take off the cover you can see a series of nozzles below a zig zag of tubing. When the burner fires there is a LOT of flame going on and it produces lots of exhaust in the form of heat that goes into a hood to which I have attached a 4 inch elbow which directs the exhaust to a vent on the bay door. When pressure in the line falls (i.e. open tap) the flame starts and quits when the pressure builds up again (tap closed). The unit will raise the temp of water a certain number of degrees -forget how much. So the warmer the water starts out the hotter it will get. We are summer campers only so I don't know how it would work with the water temp at 32-40 deg.
Over the years I have had this, it has needed repairs to the tubing twice-due to improper winterization and thus freezing. Both times I have been able to solder the hole shut.
Other than that there has been NO maintenance on it.
Things like low flow nozzles play hell with this unit as they restrict the water flow tricking the unit into thinking there is pressure and it turns off.This was a REAL problem with taking a shower until I discovered what the problem was.
As far a vibration problems in the bus there have been none and I've had it for 20 years. If that is a concern mount it on rubber feet.
If I was looking at the unit in question I would buy it and install it with an exhaust to the outside. I would then test it using a CO monitor in the location where it is installed as well as in the living area.I would bet it produces less CO than your propane stove.
In terms of practical usage, when you need hot water to do dishes it might run for 30 seconds. When you shower it probably will run for only a few minutes at a time(or until you run out of water).When you need it to wash up it might run for 10-15 seconds.
The rest of the time the unit uses NO PROPANE AT ALL.
And it only takes up a minimal amount of space.
Fred Mc.
Ok, having owned and worked on tankless water heaters for years, I'll tell you what little I do know.
This appears to be a imported unit and not likely approved for any use in the U.S., which is why it doesn't have any manufacturer info on it or ratings from safety agencies. Basically, you're on your own and installing it at your own risk knowing that it's probably not been tested for safety and likely, warranty will realistically be zilch.
It appears to be built in a similar style to the, single fixture, "lower end" tankless units, with basic water/gas control valves that likely restrict water and gas flow to adjust temperature. It has 1/2" gas inlet and is rated at a fairly low Btu, so that's a plus when trying to use it on a low pressure/low flow situation such as an rv. Often, the larger "lower end" tankless units won't activate without a fair amount of flow, and will drop out on reduced flow, so you really want low Btu's for the low flow you'll have in an RV. Since this one will produce hot water at 2.75 gallons per minute, I doubt you'd have a problem with not enough or too much hot water. It clearly is designed to be vented, which is why they say it needs to be installed outdoors. It is a small unit, so likely would fit into a bay or closet pretty easily, as long as you watch your clearance requirements. The biggie would be the proper venting of both intake combustion air and the venting of the flue gases. Since it does not have an "intake" pipe, you will need to ventilate the closet or bay to the outdoors with sufficient fresh air. Keep in mind, this means you'll have plenty of hot air in the Summer, and cold air in the Winter, circulating around this water heater at all times. Fresh combustion air is just as critical as flue exhaust.
Now, flue exhaust it a little more difficult to determine. Since this unit doesn't have an exhaust blower, you can assume that it is likely designed to exhaust on double wall type B vent. On the other hand, you probably would be safter to use category III gasketed flue pipe, just to keep the CO where it belongs, outside. Read the instructions and follow all clearance requirements for the flue pipe.
This uses batteries for the spark ignition. . . commonly done on lower end units, and they usually last quite awhile.
The drawbacks are:
It does mention a minimum pressure of 35 psi, which could be a problem if that's true. With the low Btu input and flow output, I'm surprised it would require that much pressure, but it is possible. If I bought it, I would play with the tempurature/gas controls to see if I could get buy with lower pressure.
It's not been safety tested and approved, so if it were me, I'd have a CO detector in the compartment and proper flue exhaust, just to make sure I wasn't creating a hazard. If I didn't understand how to run the flue in a safe manner, I would not install it. I would also probably put a temperature sensor in the compartment to make sure it wasn't getting too hot or too cold in there.
It's really cheap, which is good for you, but also makes you aware that it may not have safety features either. So, play at your own risk. IMHO, Christy Hicks
Christy,
Thank you for a most excellent response. Great detail and explanation....without the math.
Clif,
She said "it's OK....mostly". ::)
John.... ;D ;D ;D I crack myself up.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi427.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp351%2Fwrightwy%2FDSC05054.jpg&hash=54b9c1d12c3f4db484504d88b2d005293c0843c0) Here a picture of what the po had when I bought our Eagle I never used it and I think he only had as a back up . I took it out because I had no access to the 20 gal water heater. He had a small blower motor in the exhaust pipe . FWIW .
Quote from: philiptompkjns on January 02, 2010, 05:46:02 PM
What are all the reasons why I would not want to use this hot water heater?
Obviously it would have to be mounted outside, maybe on the backside of the bays... or in the bay and vented with a chimney.
i'm sure it is a bad idea or else more people would be using them.
First off, it's not a major brand. Where will you get parts? OTOH, it's cheap enough that you could buy two and throw one in storage, just in case.
Second, it's an outdoor-ONLY unit ("any open area with excellent ventilation"). That means carbon monoxide leaks, even with a chimney, so you can't put it in the bays. Your only option is to mount it on the side or the back of the coach. Depending on the size, it might not look too back on the back, especially if you have a ladder to balance out. If you mount it on the engine cover, you will need to use flexible (not "bendable") water and propane lines.
Third, are you happy with 2.75GPM?
If these all work for you, then it's hard to say bad things about someone with that many 100% feedbacks.
I have installed the electric units in homes. The one I install require 2 separate 40 amp circuits to operate. Though they use an enormous amount of power when "On". The savings is realized because you are only heating water as you need it and not using power to maintain the temperature when the water isn't needed.. The same applies to gas. I am referencing heater that will supply hot water for the entire house. The point of use models(electric) use much less power.
Yeah, my big gripe with the electric ones is the inability/extreme cost to replace elements when they fail. Usually, the homeowner just buys a new unit. Shameful IMHO. Perhaps you have access to a better line of heaters than we do. Christy hicks
Wow, a lot of good info and good replies in here, thanks.
The only thing that was pointed out that I had not really though of was the flow rate on the low end not being able to kick the heater on in a "low throttle" situation.
If that is a huge problem I could probably install a manual override switch in the shower to force it on for short periods of time.
And I'm not really doing anything as ghetto as bolting it to the back of the bus, I'll find someplace to put it though. I will update this thread in the future if I actually install it.
anything as ghetto as bolting it to the back of the bus,
Now that is funny. Thanks
Since we have so many knowledgeable folks in this thread perhaps you can explain something that has always perplexed me. Why if the water is already hot, do you want to heat it again?
Expiring minds want to know.......
Frank
I mean after all it is a hot water, heater correct? :)
I mean after all it is a hot water, heater correct?
Nick,
After your rested? ;D ;D ;D
John
NO, you guys have it wrong.
I'm getting a hot, water heater.
Hot as in bad @$#.