Hi guys, I'm looking to buy some Alcoa wheels for my 87 102A3. Good price but they only have drive axle wheels. Are the steering axles a different offset from the drive axles? I have steel wheels on now and the offset looks to be the same.
Gerry
Hi Gerry, I'm not a wheel specialist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know that my drives are nothing like my steers on the offset. The tags might be interchangeable with the steers, but definitely not the drives. I'm sure someone with real knowledge will pipe up soon. Good luck, Will
Actually Will I'd be real surprised if yours aren't identical rims all the way around - mine certainly are. They look different mounted on the front but they are the same rims. I'm guessing that the OP's are too but I was waiting for an MCI authority to chime in.
I am almost certain that the wheels (steel or aluminum) are the same on every position. I have never seen special drive wheels other than the super single units.
What you may find is a difference in how the aluminum wheels are polished. The wheels are reversed from front to drive and they may not be polished on both sides.
What you will want to make sure of is that they are the same mounting system. Most of the older buses are stud mounted (often called Budd). Newer trucks and buses are hub mounted. Stud mounted wheels will have a chamfer in the stud hole (both sides) and the lug nuts will have a taper on one side. Hub mounted will be a straight hole and will seat on a shoulder on the rim. You can not mix the two systems.
You will also need new long studs. This will be at least $100-200. The front ones will need to be pressed in. If you have a tag, it those studs will need to pressed in. If you use steel inner wheels, the inner studs will work, but the outer stud will need to be changes
Jim
On my MCI9 they are all the same, they are just polished on the side you can see. Jason
They do make different offsets on wheels buy what your bus needs I am not a MCI guy only telling you wheels come in different offsets.
It is a common practice for people with the widen Eagles to use different offsets
good luck
All my wheels are identical-take offs from my truck. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks guys, I am going to pick up the wheels today, I guess on some trucks the fronts have very little offset. I checked the steel wheels on my bus and the offset is the same as the drives. I have hub mounted wheels. The place I am purchasing the wheels has narrower wheel nuts that he said might work so I won't have to change the studs. I'm hoping cause I really don't want to go through the hassle of changing them. I'll post if it works. Thanks for all the info.
Gerry
Gerry,
This wheel stuff is important. I mean no offense to anyone who has already posted, but in the interest of us all being on the same page, I'd like to clarify some terminology being used here. All wheels are stud or hub mounted. The difference is found in the terms Stud piloted (commonly called Budd, as Jim noted) or Hub piloted (commonly called Metric). As Jim also notes, you can't mix the 2 systems.
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/00v5iss1/ra5.asp (http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/00v5iss1/ra5.asp)
Now, your bus may have been converted, but every MCI I've seen from the late '80s had the Budd style, Stud piloted wheel. I'm not sure what your wheel vendor is talking about with a narrower wheel nut that "might" work, but I'd be very careful here. This is not an area where you want to make a mistake.
Bob
My understanding of the wheel nuts-
Standard nuts for the steel wheel don't have threads all the way into the tapered part so as to prevent it from bottoming out on the threads when used on a steel rim that is only 3/8" thick. It also allows easier starting on the stud.
There are special nuts for use on thicker (alum) rims that are threaded all the way thru the tapered end. This allows a shorter nut but with the same number of threads engaged with the stud. They can be more difficult to start when putting them back on & the socket won't have as much to hold on to. AND you will find this shorter stud makes it easier to scar up the rim while you are installing/ removing the nuts. However, they sometimes allow you to use shorter studs . . .
Enjoy your bling bling. ;D
Hi Bob, thanks for the clarification, mine are hub mounted. I will check the length of the studs. When I pick up my wheels I will for sure, check these narrower nuts. I work for a local bus company and know very well the importance of proper stud length and torqueing.
Gerry
Gerry,
My understanding is hub pilot wheels were introduced in 1991, so, at some point, your bus was converted, I guess.
I'd be curious to know about these narrower nuts too. Perhaps they are what Kyle refers too. Keep us advised, if you will.
Bob
My first coach was a 1983 MCI-9 (NJT) . It had steel hub piloted wheels.
Iver.
Picked up my wheels today, The rep. I am dealing with was not there, I will contact him sometime this week tous was converted ask about the shorter nuts. I do not know if my bus was converted or not, but I know it has hub piloted wheels. It looks like the drives and fronts had Alloy wheels at one time, but the tags need the longer studs.
Now I'm debating whether to use the tires I have on the steely's or mortgage the house and buy new ones. The fronts are good but the rears are snowy's and are retreads. the tags are also retreads.
Gerry
Hub mounted wheel systems have been around for a long time.
In my personal experience, my 1975 MCI has them, and GM transits here at Big Transit had them a long time before that.
The choice was available to the original purchaser as to the style preferred.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
For hub-piloted wheels, you either need to change the studs to longer items for the aluminum wheels, OR you need to get a special wheel and nut combination.
The special wheel has oversized lug holes, and the special nuts have sleeves on them that thread down inside the enlarged holes.
You can't simply buy the wheels with the regular size lug holes and then hope to find some kind of nut that will work -- there will not be enough threads engaged to be safe or legal. If the wheels you bought have holes just large enough to clear the studs, then you will need to change the studs to longer ones.
Also be advised that whether you can dual aluminums or not depends on the depth of the pilot lands. Many pilots made for steel wheels will not have enough depth to engage the flange of the outer wheel if the inner wheel is aluminum. For this reason many folks, myself included, have to run steel wheels on the inners.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: bobofthenorth on December 14, 2009, 03:52:31 PM
Actually Will I'd be real surprised if yours aren't identical rims all the way around - mine certainly are. They look different mounted on the front but they are the same rims. I'm guessing that the OP's are too but I was waiting for an MCI authority to chime in.
I stand corrected. I went out this morning and pulled the covers off and crawled around in the mud with a tape measure. All the rims are of the same offset and size, even the inner Alcoas on the drive axle. I have come to the conclusion that at a certain age we cease to be fountains of knowledge and are nothing more than dithering old fools. So as not to become one of those that posts incorrect knowledge and possibly cause undue costs or worse, threaten someones safety, I will refrain from any technical posts in the future, no matter how benign.
Keep up the great posts from all you knowledgeable folks. My apologies, Will
Don't stop posting Will -we all make mistakes - some of us more than others. It takes a man to come back and admit it when he realizes what he has done. And I learned something from Clifford on this post - I didn't know that there were different offsets for singles. Mind you its a rare day that I couldn't learn something from Clifford - most days I could learn 2 or 3 things if I could just remember them.
Sometimes it takes someone posting a misunderstanding before others will post to get a better explanation out there.
Copping a hostile attitude when challenged isn't productive.
Acknowledging that you were mistaken sets a fine example & takes courage. It also lends credibility to your future posts.
I agree with BOTN and Kyle. we all can make mistakes.....doesn't mean we're "dithering old fools" :)
I did not know that hub piloted wheels were available as far back as the '70s; I stand corrected.
I had never heard the terms "hub mounted" and "stud mounted" used instead of "piloted". My research indicates that these terms are used when talking about wheel mounting methods; I stand corrected, again.
I appreciate the education.
Bob
Will - Geez man - don't beat yourself up over that - honest mistake - I believe you gave the proper warning :D
PP,
So you are just going to leave me out here "dithering" in the wind? >:( All by my only? :( C'mon Buddy, :P I promise I will make you look good. ;D
John
Kyle you were right about the nuts," I'm talking about the bus ones, not the rest of us. " LOL the shorter ones don't have much for the socket to go on to and the threades do go all the way to the end. The studs on my tags are too short even with these nuts. Not a lot of work to change on the tags.
WE learn by our mistakes, if we didn't make any mistakes we wouldn't be learning. Thanks for all the info. Gerry.
Quote from: hargreaves on December 16, 2009, 10:37:36 PM
Kyle you were right about the nuts, ... the shorter ones don't have much for the socket to go on to and the threades do go all the way to the end. The studs on my tags are too short even with these nuts. Not a lot of work to change on the tags.
Careful here. The nuts Kyle was talking about are for Budd wheels, but you've said your wheels are hub piloted. You can't use Budd nuts on hub pilot wheels and vice-versa.
As I wrote earlier, to change to aluminum wheels for hub pilots, you will either need to install longer studs, or buy the wheels with the over-sized holes and the matching sleeve nuts (assuming your studs were not made to accommodate aluminum wheels to begin with). That applies equally to steer, tag, and drive axles.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)