I'm considering completely removing my tag axle from my MCI 8, it's been chained up ever since I've owned it so I find no use for it. I'm sure there is a great deal of weight suspended there and I could create some more storage space. Me and a friend have already planned how to use the space and make the bus look better and unique.
Were gonna take a bay door from another MCI and fabricate it where the tag is removed it looks like it will fit flawlessly. MCI built a 40 foot single rear axle coach and it looks real nice. The axle is 25 inches back farther than the original.
I'm not opposed to moving the drive to the tag position if possible.
I'm sure there's gonna be some name calling in this one. lol
OSB,
No name calling, no nay-saying, but......................
OK first off it's your bus, your call. But I would think very seriously about "just removing the tag axle" before doing it.
OK first off even though yours have been chained up since you got it, they were designed to help support the rear end weight. And if properly working with correct air pressure they do make it handle better! They stabilize the rear "teeter-toter effect" and put proportionate weight on the steer axle. (even though you don't think they are helping. I can guarantee that on serious bumps and dips they act as "wheelie bars and help keep things from "out of control")
Now that said if I were going to remove one, I would then move the drive back for better weight distribution. (like the 2 axle factory coach!)
Also there is a drive shaft that goes between the transmission and drive axle that will be in the middle of your bay if you "just take out the tags"
Either way it's your bus, and a lot of work do it your way! And remember YMMV!
FWIW ;D BK ;D
HMMMMMM. I do remember someone saying that low air pressure in the tag suspension made the front end light and the bus wandered. HMMMM Wheelies you say? HMMMMM no steering? You will keep us apprised of your intended routes when you travel....right? After all, me and my family never did anything to you.
This is one of those times when you want to scream st the guy. Not cause he needs it but because you want to make sure you have been properly heard.
They do this on the 4905 and it works well. The 4905 has BOGIE wheels, not tags. If you are truly committed to this action maybe you could swap you MCI rig for a GM 4905? Food for thought?
THIMK!
John
Like I said, this will get some people riled.
I have already driven the bus 500 + miles with just rims hanging back there. The bus did porpoise slightly but no wheelies and no ill handling affects. after 50 miles I didn't even notice the porpoising.
For once it would be nice for people to chime in with helpful and optimistic ways of doing things. I have chopped perfectly good motorcycles into unrecognizable seemingly scrap and ended up with a bike with things people said would never work. It did. I love living in my bus but occasionally I like getting outside of it and away from it for a while. I couldn't imagine living in a box and never at least thinking outside of it.
Sometimes I do things just because someone told me I couldn't, I'll show me. lol
Bryce, I wasn't going to build a full bay just 2 small compartments. But if the axle can be moved back then I would.
OSB -
Anything can be accomplished if you throw enough money at it!
Time to rent the movie "Money Pit" with Tom Hanks & Shelly Long? ;D
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: RJ on November 30, 2009, 08:41:32 PM
OSB -
Anything can be accomplished if you throw enough money at it!
Time to rent the movie "Money Pit" with Tom Hanks & Shelly Long? ;D
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Your preaching to the choir but I'm gonna keep singing.
I know a guy who stretched a MCI 8 5 ft and put in a series 60
I know the guy who built the first Transformer then built 3 replicas and went all over the country with them.
Another guy built a helicopter 3 wheeler with 2 engines. I'd fly in it.
How about putting some tires on the tags and really compare how it drives with and without. Then you would have a better idea of how or if it affects handling or ride.
It will be even less wheelie effect if you move the axle back. And you said it drove fine without the tag so i say do it. There are many people that stop others from doing things that are easily achiveable. If you screw up your bus though, please dont look for me ;D
There are tires on it & I have had them down before, not enough difference to be a concern.
Just a guesstimate but I think I could shed about 1,000 lbs or more by removing them. All of that weight has been suspended there for a few years. If I do remove it all and decide I don't like it I'll just put it back in, not gonna take the plasma cutter to it right away.
With the MCI's tag axle behind the driver, putting pressure into the tag air bags will take weight off the drivers and transfer it to the steering axle. Conversely, if you completely remove the tag axle, the front axle will have less weight, but the drive axle will be heavier.
I would suggest weighing you bus by axle and see what it weighs in at with the tag axle chained up. You already know how the bus will behave without the tag axle, and you seem to be alright with it. The weight issue is a big one. In general, you are allowed 12,000lbs on the steers, 20,000lbs on a single drive axle and 34,000lbs on a tandem rear axle. Higher weights can be allowed, but since you are not a commercial vehicle, these weights listed above are what usually applies. And don't think that the Highway Patrol will not pull you into the scales sometime-different states have different rules. Good Luck, TomC
So if my bus weighs 26,000 or even less this shouldn't be an issue should it?
I wonder if by removing the tag, which in essence it is now being chained up will make too much unsupported weight on the engine/cradle and cause premature or catastrophic failure back there?
You also said, "For once it would be nice for people to chime in with helpful and optimistic ways of doing things."
Lighten up schoolie, the first two post had good comments!
Jack
It's not a matter of lightening up. I was just making a statement about a wish.
This site has always had a huge %age of people who say "that won't work" or "Let me know what roads you take so you don't kill my family"
What I'm saying is instead of attacking an idea of why it won't work come up with an idea to help make it work or be safer.
Or if you have no idea what's really going on then just listen (read) and learn.
I think just driving through some of the cities in the US are more dangerous than removing a tag axle. Man the shootings are getting high. Also there is alot of street racing going on too.
Dont drift the bus and you will be fine.
Actually, I do know what's really going on schoolie.
If you read the posts made, there are some valid reasons to not do this...I gave you the best one without just coming right out and saying the engine/cradle combo will suffer GREATLY from not having the tag back there in working order.
Just like your composting toilet idea...you assumed urine could be considered grey water...you are assuming taking the tag off of you '8' will be OK. Now the best answer was and still is that if you do it to move the drive axle back. (That by the way will get back some of the leverage needed to keep the engine/cradle back to a managable working load.)
Not trying to get into a peeing contest here...just trying to point out that by really reading the answers...you will learn a lot...instead of getting your panties in a wad when someone points out stuff you don't want to hear.
Jack
I never said anything even remotely close to Pee is gray water & my panties are not in a wad, the string is however up my but ;D
This bus was owned (bought new) and maintained by the city of Denver and has spent a large amount of it's life with the tag chained up. I'm sure that if that were an issue it would have been one by now.
OSB -
I'm curious. . . how many miles have you driven buses in revenue service, and what makes/models?
(Hang in there, there's a method to my madness!)
;)
(Prefaced: w/o modification) It seems to me that it'll be just fine until the stress cracks are evident - right before the frame shears and drops the engine cradle on the tarmac - but WTH I'm a protaganist - - FWIW
Since I am of the unwashed here with my 5C (sans tags), How much does the tag contribute to the braking of the coach ?
If removed, would that leave someone open to a zealous lawyer if in an accident ? I never thought in this manner when living in West Virginia, 33yrs in NJ things are different... But I digress.
I know some coaches were delivered without tags, (entertainer? I forget the name), possibly because their design weights were lower ?
Gary
Last week I had a tag tire blow. With the movement the coach did I thought it was a front tire, I would thinkthe bus would be had to control leaving the drive in its original.
The 4905 has two bay wheels that drop, and the drive axle is much futher back? John Ed you could check on Google for us?
John
I'm going to throw my 2 cents into the mix.
If your coach was designed for three axles, I'd keep it that way. There has to be a logical reason for doing so, weight transfer, load bearing etc. Two axle coaches were designed for the intended purpose, a lighter load and proper weight distribution and transfer of load.
You say it's OK because it's been that way by hanging it on chains for a long period of time. That's much different than putting on thousands of miles and hoping the engine cradle stays intact.
This is one are that thinking outside of the box could be a disaster, and I like thinking outside the box, just not reinventing it.
I am by no means an engineer, just trying to be logical.
Paul
Just a question about Tags. I know that most 40' busses will haul in the range of 47-50 passengers on average. And in most cases I would assume they bring along about the same amount of luggage. With that being said wouldn't most likely they all have close to the same load capacity? I guess it is in part placement of the axles as to whether or not they can be removed? If the tag is a bogie like on my 4905 that I removed or on say an MCI where it is an actual wieght bearing tag assisting in support of the cradle. Some of the 4905's did not even come with a tag. But there again I guess it is placement of axle distributing the weight?
If weight load is close to the same would it not work to move the axle back to a closer position of maybe where the 4905 is placed?
Just thinking out loud ::)
Bryan
Just doing some thinking and doodling about this. Here is what I have come up with. It seems reasonable to me, but I could be totally wrong...
When the bus is stretched from 35' like a MC-5 to 40' like a MC-8, the wheel base only increases by 2 feet. That means that the additional weight of bus, and the stuff like engines and cooling systems, all of that, is cantilevered out an additional 3 feet. That weight is supposed to be supported by the tag axle. The tag does two things, it supports the weight, and since the fulcrum of the leverage of that weight is the drive axle, it transfers weight up to the front of the bus. All fine so far. With the tags chained up, you have the worst situation weight distribution-wise, you have none of the support and all of the weight of the tags. Just removing the tags, you make things better by removing the weight load behind the axle, that will transfer some weight forward and reduce the weight on the drive axle.
If you move the drive axle back, you will improve the weight distribution back towards what it would be if the tags were in play. You will increase the turning radius of the bus. You may reduce the cantilever loads of the engine and the rear of the bus relative to the drive axle - but that will depend on how and where you engineer the replacement of the air beams and how they tie in to the structure of the bus. The air beams are what actually holds the bus up, obviously. I think engineering wise it would be simpler to engineer a truss to transfer load back towards the air-bag supports for the tag axle to let the drive axle bags and air beam transfer support to the tag axle air bag mount. That will restore any strength required to support the back of the bus. Doing weight load calculations will let you predict with some accuracy exactly what removing the tag will actually do. Example - wheel base is 285" between the drive and steer axles. Tag axle is 60" behind the drive axle (guess). If you remove 1500 lbs (guess as to the total weight of the tag assembly currently chained up and not helping at all) then you will transfer 315 lbs back towards the steer axle. 60/285 is 0.21, and 1500 * 0.21 is 315. If you were to remove the AC compressor, and it was 10 feet behind the drive axle and weighed 250 lbs, then you would transfer 105 lbs towards the steer axle.
This will have a similar effect of what the tags are supposed to do, which is support the back of the bus and transfer weight forward. If the tags were down and carrying 5,000 lbs at 60" behind the drive axle, they would transfer around 1,000 lbs towards the front.
I think this is how it would work out, anyway. Feel free to debunk! :)
Brian
I rarely get involved in these, but this is serious stuff! I agree with Paul, when engineering these buses, smarter people than myself spent many hours designing something that was safe, after 20 plus years the design must have worked! I've only put the miles on my bus driving it home....being new I decided to lift the tags (to save tire wear), until it started raining......the bus was what I call darty (quick side to side movement), I actually thought I had a flat tire.......after stopping and inspecting I didn't find any tire problems. Back on the road I put the tag down and the dartyness immediately stopped.....! Look at the weight distribution on buses all three axles are there for a purpose. They didn't design this to use extra tires up for Goodyear or Firestone.........! It's your bus.....innovation is applauded, but sometimes you just have to shake your head ! If if fails........some shyster lawyer will love picking through the pieces to see if you are going to pay for his kids education or buy that new Mercedes for his girlfriend!
I don't understand metal and I've made that perfectly clear but I'm also agreeing that the flavor of the board has changed over the past couple of years, I came here from RV.Newt because of they were so judgemental and even had the amazing ability to tell if something was overloaded by seeing it from a distance, this board was different because a person could propose a radical idea and people would say, wow thats differrent, I wonder how we could do that, now it's don't change the engineering or the sky will fall lol, I don't know how many times I read that phrase about tell me what roads you'll be on so I can take different ones. Here we know what the problems are, 1. is different loading of the axles, ok the cure could be moving the drives back, 2. the problem is the engine cradle, cure could be reinforcing it so that with the new placement of the drives it's strong, fact is, those cradles break with all the axles in place, so they need reinforcing sometimes anyway. Everyone has a different idea, lets get back to the shade tree thinking and maybe think of some radical changes that would help instead of condemning it, we've even got a guy here that cut a scenic in half and lengthened it, then glued it all back together, and a guy thats making a semi truck into a box camper, if someone went over to rv.net and asked if they could glue the siding on a bus, they would still be laughing over there, I'm with you schoolie, just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong, just needs to be done right to be safe.
Just my 2 cents the 4905 the boggie were a option to meet the axle weight laws in different states, Lot of 40ft buses without tags or boggies but they were made that way from the factory Eagle had several models.
As far a removing a tag to me that would be a no/ no we have a guy in the Eagle club that removed his boggie on a 05 Eagle to get another baggage bay now he is trying to figure out how to reinstall it causes him problems.
The Denver buses the tags were raised for turning and the snow but do it your way it is the best way to live and learn.
FWIW I believe you will find out the engineers at the manufacture knew what they were doing even if some are a little flaky LOL but to put more stress on a suspension system that was designed for 3 axles and no frame that I have problem with
good luck
Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, or even venturing outside once in a while. 8)
-BUT- belligerence towards the less than enthusiastic responses to questions concerning "new" ideas - - - Well lets say that ain't the way to build credibility, win friends, or influence people. ;)
I'd suggest a class or 2 in vehicle dynamics before you dive into this modification. At least then you'd have an idea of the complexities involved vs limited seat of the pants experience.
(The 4905 was designed as a 2 axle bus. The retractable bogie was added to satisfy state laws requiring 3 axles for the weight. The MCI8 was designed as a 3 axle bus. The GM buses were the lightest coaches built, the MCI's were heavier. . . . )
Sure, you can remove the tag - BUT, what are the effects?
Sure, you can move the drive axle, but have you given any real consideration as to how the bus structure is affected?
A longer wheel base = a longer turning radius, & that isn't something most want when they find themselves in close quarters. . . .
BTW, if one needs to have the weight distribution explained, maybe their engineering abilities ain't up to the task of changing the structure. . . . :o
The reason for all the negativity to the unorthodox things that get proposed is because there have been enough half started conversions that were abandoned because the difficulties kept adding up & we don't want to see more. If one tosses out an idea only to hear negative feedback, that should be a clue that it ain't as good an idea as first thought. - That's not to say don't do it, but rather 'approach with caution'.
Copping an attitude will reduce the level of respect received from others.
What kind of friends would encourage someone to do something without warning of the known/ perceived risks.
If all you want is 'atta boys', then stick with talking to the dude in the mirror.
If you want insight about a path you're considering - ask away, just don't be surprised that the path may contain more pot-holes that you'd like. . . .
This community is extremely tolerant, they even put up with me. The easiest way to challenge that tolerance is to ask for advice, then put down the advice giver because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. The very subject line of your post indicates that that may have been your goal all along.
So, my advice; go for it. I think it's a great idea. Take lots of pictures and let us know how it works out.l
Len
I was going to abstain from this because it was obvious you didn't want to hear what I had to say, but, well, you know how it is...
It seems from the information you've posted here that you have nearly zero experience with highway coaches and maybe even less experience with logical thought processes, critical thinking, and maintaining interpersonal relationships. But then again, I don't know you. I'm only going on what I read here.
I have what I would consider more experience cutting up an MCI than your average bear, and probably more seat-of-the-pants engineering than most, and I pride myself for my above average ability to think outside the box and try things others said couldn't
be done. I grew up with a torch in one hand and a welder in the other. I like to think my greatest ability is to know my limitations.
And yes, I'm one of those guys who can look at it from a distance and tell you it's overloaded. ::) But that really has no
bearing on this thread.
I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said here, especially Kyle and Len and Cliff. I don't have any helpful or optimistic
advice for you because frankly, I think it's a bad idea. But hey, you've chopped a motorcycle or two. A bus is only a little different,
and a bit larger, so I say go for it. Damn the torpedoes! To hell with the engineers (after all, what do they know, right?)
Take the torch to that sucker and create your dream coach. Take lots of photos and show us all how it goes. I encourage you
to be diligent with the documentation. If you succeed, maybe we can learn something. We'll even let you gloat a little. If you
fail (and are still alive), maybe we can learn something.
Bus conversions are hard. They take a lot of time and money. Personally, I think it would he a heck of a lot easier to simply buy a 2 axle 40-ft coach to begin with and do your conversion on that. But, what do I know?
That's not really what you wanted to hear, but the wonderful thing about this hobby is that you can do it your way, and be 100% responsible for you decisions, actions, and final results.... right or wrong!
You guys are absolutely right, I forgot who I was dealing with, I defer to your superior knowledge of all things mechanical, as I stated in the beginning I don't understand metal and I appreciate the crew here reminding me, I gave up on the idea of winning friends back in high school but I happen to know of an eagle that is sporting a cat engine, took some engineering to do it but seems to work, I know of a bus that was split lengthwise and widened, I know of a bus that has no rivits and the door is even on what a lot of people would think is backwards, I felt sorry for a guy that talked about putting slides on his prevo, (that prevo was at BK's and the slides work just fine, wasn't his first rodeo with them). I'll get off my soapbox now, for those that have pmmed me and asked, yes, libby is still in ICU but she is expected to make it ok.
Just so you know, these are some of the guys who are offering advice.
http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/ (http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/)
http://bus.gumpydog.com (http://bus.gumpydog.com)
http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm)
http://busconversionstuff.com/ (http://busconversionstuff.com/)
Might just be a little first hand knowledge in there.
OSB,
I was going to send this as a PM, but then changed my mind.
OK first off there is a huge difference between a bike and a bus! Like maybe 25,000 +/- lbs.
Now just for the record, I am known as a lazy good for nothing, never did anything worth while idiot. That said, it tells you I know absolutely nothing, nada, zero, zilch, yada yada yada about buses or anything you are proposing here.
Further more I know even less about you than I do anything else. (and so does the rest of the members of the board) You pop up from nowhere, and begin throwing out wild @$# ideas. Now that alone is not a bad thing. But not having an open mind to the responses you get is.
So for the record now that you know a little about me. And how little I know, and that I am ignorant and totally worthless. How about giving us a little back ground info on yerself? You see many of us have been around on this board for a while, and have learned a little about each other and their abilities. (or lack of) But when most of us were newbies, we introduced ourselves or whatever and gave a little bit of back ground history or what not. Also many of us add info about us in our profiles or tag lines.
FWIW ; Iwannabusbad@gmail.com doesn't tell us alot about you, your bus, or anything except you maid up this email just for this site.
Now that all that has been said and it's all out in the open that Cody; is who you go too for welding and metal fabrication. Clifford; for wood working, Nick;for major repairs, engine and transmission work, Ruthi; HVAC, Belfert; for roof raising, Dallas; painting, and etc. you get the idea! Clear as mud now right?
OK now I am off that soapbox and onto another one 1st off I didn't say "don't do it", or "it can't be done", or "it's gonna break in half and melt into a puddle of muck"
I did say that it wasn't an easy task to do correctly (not in those exact words), and it is not advisable.
OK so now we know your bus came from Denver's transit system. And I know yours is not the first MC8 that an owner acquired from the Denver transit system that had the tags chained up.
However even though I know nothing at all about buses (I'm the computer guru of this bunch! ;D). The reason they chain those tag axles up is for better traction in the winter. Oh wait it doesn't snow in Denver does it? (let me google it and see, opps no need my sister used to live in Wheat Ridge, Georgetown, & Empire so see I might just know a little about the area ;D)
Also when do they take old buses out of service and replace them most of the time? When possible @ the end of or beginning of a yr. (think new budget funding).
So if a bus had the tags "chained up" when retired do you really think that the mechanics are really gonna waste their time unchaining it?
OK now I know another guy who had a MC8 that came from Denver (and yes the tags were "chained up", and he had no idea his bus drove bad until he had me drive it back from a store we'd been too. I immediately noticed how bad it darted and wandered all over. Once back at my shop we unchained the tags and took it out for another ride. It drove much better, but he still liked it the other way. And was still considering what you are. So did he do it? I have no idea, haven't seen or heard from him in a while.
But I do know that with out major modification it's not recommended!
Now as for moving the drives back like as in;
Quote from: bryanhes
If weight load is close to the same would it not work to move the axle back to a closer position of maybe where the 4905 is placed?
Just thinking out loud ::)
Bryan
OK Bryan nothing wrong with thinking out loud, or even outside the box. But on a T drive the axle can not be moved that far to the rear. Ever notice the GM buses with the axle that far back all have V drives? There is a reason. ;D
OK so OSB I say go for it, it's your $, your bus (maybe), and your time. Prove us wrong. I welcome the idea of it, but I really doubt you'll keep us informed if it fails! I wonder if you aren't just baiting us, to ruffle feathers after all your title is "This will get some people stirred up!"
Are you really a newbie, or just someone bored and looking for ways to "stir the
out house" I mean "POT" Could it be that you are really someone we know that likes to keep a contraversy going and is hiding under that new email address?
OK I'm done light the fires!
;D BK ;D www.kylakesidetravel.net (http://www.kylakesidetravel.net) ;D
I think getting the axles weighed would be a good idea...
How about putting the generator in the nose if the steer tires don't have enough weight?
And as far as the engine cradle breaking, it's never a bad idea to reinforce things... just don't add too much weight. As long as you don't add any more weight than you remove with the tags you'll probably be OK.
I would also think that moving the drive axle would be a very huge project. Not impossible though.
Good luck though, you will save some weight, rotating mass, and fuel!
There was at one time a CLOWN on this board and he also thought way outside the box.Nuff said. ;D ;D ;D
One thing I'd check into is what kind of leverage effect would be created by the extra overhang, I know of a couple MCI's that have broken engine cradles that still use the tags.
Quote from: cody on December 01, 2009, 08:29:01 AM
One thing I'd check into is what kind of leverage effect would be created by the extra overhang, I know of a couple MCI's that have broken engine cradles that still use the tags.
Aw Cody say it ain't so! Really broken engine cradles? Still using the factory designed and engineered tags, and still broke?
Oh the humility of it! I can't stand it! Please tell me more. Like might this be the perfectly fine otherwise good looking bus at the end of a driveway by the road now serving as a "Billboard"? Please tell me more, I must know!
;D BK ;D
I know it's sad isn't it BK, when people could have bought iggles, there sit the MCI's, and some still drive them, it scares me.lol I apologize for being a little touchy, I guess I'm getting cranky in my old age.
I have an MC-9 , not so much different than an 8.
When I'm in a parking lot or tight fuel station I take the pressure off the tags for quicker steering.
Every now and then I forget to load the tags when I get back on the road.
What a big difference in the ride. At highway speeds the front end seems to wander and bounce.
Then I remember to load the tags. ( I have the switch at the dash for control of the tag loading )
The ride and control comes right back to normal , straight line stable.
Since you've had the tags up the whole time you've driven the bus you may not know how straight line stable these buses are designed to be. The side loads on the bus at highway speeds during cross winds is substainal and the tags help control these extra loads.
Of course you'll do what you want to do.
I suggest you not play with the basic structure / foundation of this bus without having a professional help you thru it.
Frank
Quote from: Frank @ TX on December 01, 2009, 08:41:57 AM
I have an MC-9 , not so much different than an 8.
When I'm in a parking lot or tight fuel station I take the pressure off the tags for quicker steering.
Every now and then I forget to load the tags when I get back on the road.
What a big difference in the ride. At highway speeds the front end seems to wander and bounce.
Then I remember to load the tags. ( I have the switch at the dash for control of the tag loading )
The ride and control comes right back to normal , straight line stable.
Since you've had the tags up the whole time you've driven the bus you may not know how straight line stable these buses are designed to be. The side loads on the bus at highway speeds during cross winds is substainal and the tags help control these extra loads.
Of course you'll do what you want to do.
I suggest you not play with the basic structure / foundation of this bus without having a professional help you thru it.
Frank
Frank thank you, my point exactly! Thank you, thank you very much! ;D
;D BK ;D
Quote from: redbus on December 01, 2009, 08:28:37 AM
There was at one time a CLOWN on this board and he also thought way outside the box.Nuff said. ;D ;D ;D
Yes but his specialty was VW hippie buses! ;D He could rebuild one of those all by himself with $20 worth of Harbor Freight tools! ;D
;D BK ;D
There was also the guy who was going to do a "frame off" restoration of some junker city bus. He got all upset when it was suggested that it might not be a worthwhile project, and besides, there is no frame.
BK...I am reminded of how much I like you...your post was right on!
Jack
For some, their minds are already made up, so let's not confuse them with facts. ;D
After all, engineers are a bunch of nay-saying fools who can't get anything right - everyone knows it was the tinkerers in the backyard that really built those buses & made 'em last milloins & millions of miles in revenue service. ;)
On another note, a question to consider - If a bus with proper tags has issues with the engine support system (cracked cradle), how smart do you think it would be to add more stress to the structure by removing a load bearing axle?
Here's another thought- If you're so tight on space that you'd go to the effort & expense to remove the tag / relocate the drive AND pull a trailer so big it needs a steering front axle - - - maybe - just maybe - a bus ain't the best route to consider. I'm thinking a long frame cabover with double sleeper & the longest trailer allowed. You'd have lots more standard parts to base your eccentric 'needs' on.
Just think of the possibilities;
With the space under the trailer, you'd be able to have sufficient waste water storage.
Slideouts wouldn't be a problem.
You could easily change position of the trailer axles to provide the maneuverability, ride quality, or weight capacity desired.
Damn, I've talked myself into it already. Anyone want a Scenicruiser or 6? (NOT)
Quote from: kyle4501 on December 01, 2009, 09:16:48 AM
Here's another thought- If you're so tight on space that you'd go to the effort & expense to remove the tag / relocate the drive AND pull a trailer so big it needs a steering front axle - - - maybe - just maybe - a bus ain't the best route to consider. I'm thinking a long frame cabover with double sleeper & the longest trailer allowed. You'd have lots more standard parts to base your eccentric 'needs' on.
Just think of the possibilities;
With the space under the trailer, you'd be able to have sufficient waste water storage.
Slideouts wouldn't be a problem.
You could easily change position of the trailer axles to provide the maneuverability, ride quality, or weight capacity desired.
Dang good point!
I've often considered finding a big old furniture mover trailer for my next conversion. The lowered belly for bays, and at a couple levels up inside. Maybe a small garage in the back for the toad and bikes.
But then again, I thought it would be cool to buy that used aircraft carrier that Canada had for sale a few years ago and host bus rallys on it's decks while floating the 7 seas.
BK,
See I learned something new today ;D I am not real familiar w/ MCI so it was more of a question. My tag was not as crucial to the design as the MCI apparently is. OSB, just go buy a 4905 and you can remove the tag as I did, gain the extra baggage compartment and have a really cool looking bus ;D ;D Or find one without the bogie to begin with, LOL
Bryan
I've found that engineers arn't really a bunch of naysayers, that normally comes from the ones that think they are engineers but arn't, there is a huge difference between a wannabe engineer and a real one and most of the real ones won't post much on the board anymore. One difference is a PE has a registry number that proves credentials and ability, I'm not saying that a lifetime of experience is worthless, much to the contrary, what I'm saying is that I hear the term engineer come up quite often and I'm asking if it is being used as a noun or what it is refereing too. I've ran into set-up guys at welding shops that claim to be engineers, I've also seen metal fabricators that claim to be engineers, I just want to be clear on how the term is being used and in what context.
Thanks for the psychiatric evaluation from a group who deems themselves "NUTS" Kinda like kettle meet pot, pot meet kettle. The visionless leading the blind.
For all it's worth I could be the world famous fabricator Jessie James with a team of engineers doing this and would still get the same replies. It could be done and years of running down the road and Walla the same responses.
Answers against what I want to do don't bother me it's the lack of knowledge and the extreme fear of nothing.
This thread would have went just as it had if I named it "Please all of you so much smarter than me slap some sense into me" So quit blaming me as a s_ _t stirrer. It's the nature of quite a few here to shoot holes in everything. So be it.
Every thing on my bus is off the wall, from the furniture I have built & am building to the door handle and the driver. I've shown a few close & trusted friends some of the stuff I've done and got mixed reviews from WOW!!! your creative to "You gotta lot of time on your hands" "How'd you do that?"
You say you don't know me or anything about me yet you call me "Newbie" kind condesending don't you think. I've converted and helped convert more coaches than most of you and not as near as many as some of you. I have enough experience and common sense to realize once I'm into something as to whether it will work or not and to not do anything that's "Undoable" before I think it through and test it.
So I'll proceed with my plan when the time is right (Spring) evaluate everything and go from there.
Thanks
Maybe in future you come visit us with the perspective of letting us know your progress, sharing your successes, rather than trolling for advice you know you won't follow, with thread titles that proclaim your intent to be divisive and confrontational. That would work, I would think..
Brian
Had ti chime in as I do enjoy a good argument. When I started my eagle some 9+ years ago, I asked a million questions. At some point I talked to the owner of Infinity Coach I think it was. He was very helpful and we talked for a long time. I was asking how people did this and that. He asked me if I ever went to car shows, and did I notice all the different cars and the way they were unique. The moral he said is if every hotrod builder did it the same you might as well go to a new car lot. Do it the way you would like to see it not the rest of the world. Research fully, and if you feel safe with your loved ones traveling in it that is all that matters. His advise made perfect sense to me and so far that has worked out well!! I have sliced and diced for 9 years with pride and my 20+ years as a mechanical engineer did not interfere at all LOL!!! Good luck and as Elvis said do it your way!!!
How bout I do this? Just do everything your way, ask permission to ask questions, get the exact wording pre approved and treat you like the bus Gods you are.
There are many forums I belong to and I skip over some threads cause they don't interest me or I have no valuable input. Feel free to do so with mine.
There are some here I could build a time warp machine powered by H2O with a perpetual motion drive system that turns WVO into fuel for our vehicles let you use it, tear it apart, reassemble it and use it again and still get "It can't work"
But I'm the bad guy cause I want intelligent answers rather than uneducated guesses.
Point out one thread on this board that hasn't went off in some other direction after the first page or someone hasn't thrown in "I don't know anything about this but here's my 2 cents"
Quote from: Old Scool Bus on December 01, 2009, 09:29:26 AM
Thanks for the psychiatric evaluation from a group who deems themselves "NUTS" Kinda like kettle meet pot, pot meet kettle. The visionless leading the blind.
For all it's worth I could be the world famous fabricator Jessie James with a team of engineers doing this and would still get the same replies. It could be done and years of running down the road and Walla the same responses.
Answers against what I want to do don't bother me it's the lack of knowledge and the extreme fear of nothing.
This thread would have went just as it had if I named it "Please all of you so much smarter than me slap some sense into me" So quit blaming me as a s_ _t stirrer. It's the nature of quite a few here to shoot holes in everything. So be it.
Every thing on my bus is off the wall, from the furniture I have built & am building to the door handle and the driver. I've shown a few close & trusted friends some of the stuff I've done and got mixed reviews from WOW!!! your creative to "You gotta lot of time on your hands" "How'd you do that?"
You say you don't know me or anything about me yet you call me "Newbie" kind condesending don't you think. I've converted and helped convert more coaches than most of you and not as near as many as some of you. I have enough experience and common sense to realize once I'm into something as to whether it will work or not and to not do anything that's "Undoable" before I think it through and test it.
So I'll proceed with my plan when the time is right (Spring) evaluate everything and go from there.
Thanks
Yes I admit I said it. But hey don't get mad at me. Here on the board according to the status under your name you are infact a "Newbie"
I didn't say you have no experience, and I didn't say you are a "nut case" or that you have no business converting buses.
What I said is you have given us no insight as to who you are, what your capabilities are, or any other insight about you!
Yes I say "YOU MIGHT BE A $#!% STIRRER", but hey again I don't know!
You say you might be the great Jessie James, but NO YOU ARE NOT JESSIE JAMES!
I know this as I have met the great Jessie James and he has much more class and when he asks something he has an open mind to all answers.
AND THEN JUST GOES AND DOES WHAT THEY SAY CAN'T BE DONE with out a bunch of BS whining about it! He just out classes them by silently showing them IT CAN BE DONE!
I'm so outta here for now!
C-YA!
;D BK ;D
And by the way I do know something about this and with inflation this was my $.25 cents!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Old Scool Bus on December 01, 2009, 09:29:26 AM
Thanks for the psychiatric evaluation from a group who deems themselves "NUTS" Kinda like kettle meet pot, pot meet kettle. The visionless leading the blind.
And you wonder why you get the responses you do? Interpersonal relationships...
Quote
For all it's worth I could be the world famous fabricator Jessie James with a team of engineers doing this and would still get the same replies. It could be done and years of running down the road and Walla the same responses.
Are you?
By the way, I've only seen one episode of what ever that show is called, and I was not overly impressed.
Quote
Answers against what I want to do don't bother me it's the lack of knowledge and the extreme fear of nothing.
Just curious where you perceive lack of knowledge in the responses you got?
Quote
This thread would have went just as it had if I named it "Please all of you so much smarter than me slap some sense into me" So quit blaming me as a s_ _t stirrer. It's the nature of quite a few here to shoot holes in everything. So be it.
See, I actually look at that as a good thing, but I know I don't know everything, and I find it's often a good idea to run my ideas by all these other guys who have completely different life experiences than I and let them shoot holes into my ideas. Of course, then it's up to me to filter out the BS and decide what part of their responses are valid and worthwhile and move forward. Logical and critical thinking...
Quote
Every thing on my bus is off the wall, from the furniture I have built & am building to the door handle and the driver. I've shown a few close & trusted friends some of the stuff I've done and got mixed reviews from WOW!!! your creative to "You gotta lot of time on your hands" "How'd you do that?"
You say you don't know me or anything about me yet you call me "Newbie" kind condesending don't you think. I've converted and helped convert more coaches than most of you and not as near as many as some of you. I have enough experience and common sense to realize once I'm into something as to whether it will work or not and to not do anything that's "Undoable" before I think it through and test it.
And we're supposed to know that how??? You stated in this thread you have chopped some motorcycles and driven a bus all of 500 miles. A quick glance at your profile says you started it in January, you've posted 30 something posts since then and your email indicates you had busnut fever (BTDT) when you registered it. Certainly leaves a lot to our imagination....
Quote
So I'll proceed with my plan when the time is right (Spring) evaluate everything and go from there.
Good plan.
Quote
Thanks
Your welcome. Anything we can do to help, just ask.
And just so you know, there's more bus knowledge and experience on this board than you, Jesse James, his whole team of engineers, and Mickey Mouse combined possess. You asked a question with a closed mine (see your thread title), and then threw a tantrum when you got the responses which you expected, but not which you wanted to hear. I'm sorry if you didn't hear what you wanted to, but you received open honest answers from everyone based on the very limited information they had to go on.
Furthermore, yes, removing a tag axle on an MC8 can be done. Moving the drive axle rearward and filling in the hole with another bay can also be done. In fact, I could do it myself, single handedly. I have no doubt about any of these claims. I also have no plans to prove any of them.
What I don't know is whether you can do it. I don't know how much money or time you have. I don't know how many engineers or celebrities you have on your team, but based on your inquiry, I'm guessing zero, or you would already have your answers. I also know that removing a tag axle from an engineered coach and/or moving a drive axle on same coach is not an advisable thing to do, and I think most everyone on this board will agree with that. I also know that if none of the people here know anything about you, they will all be reluctant to give you advice that might get you or someone else killed (oops, there's that ole fear of nothing thingy). I also know that if you act like a teen-ager towards their genuine responses, you'll be unlikely to get further information out of them on future questions.
But what do I know?
Hmmm...lots of educated opinions here and its not doing anyone any good.
Im not so sure old s'cool bus wanted honest opinions and advice, or was just trying raise a little hell.
Look at the title of his post.......
Why would it not read "Thinking about Losing the Tag on my MC8 - any thoughts?" if he was really looking for information.
Just my 2 canuck pennies.
Mark
Skoolie, sometimes it's about 'tude! You should study that...your attitude thus far lacks a lot to be desired.
AFTER all of this you finally come out and something about having done a bunch of conversions. If you had stated that from the beginning you would have been met with a little more lattitude...but you did not.
Look in the mirror dude...that's where a lot of your problems start!
Jack
Great thread, 5 stars!
Your right I'm wrong (as always)
Let me start over
Hi, my name is (insert name) I'm an alcoholic.
Better?
And no it wouldn't be any different.
This is funny to me I bet the ignore button gets a workout from some of the guys.
I was just trying to give the guy a little info from a first handed view but it is his bus let him chop it up means nothing to me.
I would sure like to see some pictures of buses he converted I have one in my mind but it
could be very educational to us all
OSB, you come in here and ask a question and then you put down everyone that answers you in a way you don't approve of. You are the one that is and has been rude here. Chill out, learn to be polite and you won't have any problems here. No longer than you have been posting you already have someone ignoring you because of your attitude. We welcome new members here and welcome you and your posts. Just please be polite and treat people with the respect that you would want for yourself.
Quote from: Old Scool Bus on December 01, 2009, 10:24:31 AM
Your right I'm wrong (as always)
Let me start over
Hi, my name is (insert name) I'm an alcoholic.
Better?
And no it wouldn't be any different.
Well, at the risk of pissing you off even more..... (which I think at this point the general consensus is "who cares?)...
If you already knew how this thread would go, why did you start it in the first place?
Or, why did you name it with an already controversial attitude laden name?
Or why didn't you just rephrase your question so as not to elicit negative responses. Obviously, with your vast experience (you did say you had vast experience, didn't you), you know that screwing with a large engineered vehicle can't be easy or advisable.
Dude, if you want our knowledge and experience, treat us with respect.
Think about it. What if I got on one of your bike forums and said, I've decided to cut the front end off my Honda and just run with one wheel, cause I really think it would work better. Maybe I'll move my rear wheel forward to compensate for the loading.
Oh, and I popped a wheely and drove it for 500 miles and it seemed ok. It had a flat front tire when I bought it, so they weren't using that tire anyway.
Quote from: gumpy on December 01, 2009, 10:33:58 AM
Think about it. What if I got on one of your bike forums and said, I've decided to cut the front end off my Honda and just run with one wheel, cause I really think it would work better. Maybe I'll move my rear wheel forward to compensate for the loading.
Oh, and I popped a wheely and drove it for 500 miles and it seemed ok. It had a flat front tire when I bought it, so they weren't using that tire anyway.
In the future could you maybe post a warning before this kind of stuff. There's gonna be more than one keyboard get a bath from spewed coffee I think.
It is often difficult to fully express one's self on a flat media like this board.
However, to ask baited questions or make baited statements is in poor taste & the results are predictable (by anyone who remembers what they have read in the past.)
The quality of the response is in direct proportion to the quality of the question. A little background information goes a long way.
OSB, you claim to have so much experience, I won't directly dispute that, but the impression several got from reading your posts does not support your claim of experience.
When one goes belligerent when responses meet the quality of the question/ statement . . . . seems to tell something of ones self . . . even more telling when the belligerent one fails to see the response is of higher quality.
Lots of us know little if anything at all (How could anyone with even a single living brain cell end up with 6 derelict old buses?) ;)
BTW, if you haven't noticed by now, most busnuts are more of a 'show me" rather than a 'tell me' mentality.
OSB, your posting style is very similar to a few trolls of the past. Come in all hot & heavy, claim to have all the knowledge & experience they need, yet ask the most basic of questions in a way that demonstrates a lack of comprehension of the total system that makes a conversion.
If it looks like $hit & smells like $hit, most of us here are smart enough to walk around it.
However, it is rather amusing to watch a self professed expert pick up & taste it if you know what I mean. :o
A lot of good points have been made on both sides of the issue but also a lot of offending statements on both sides. I see this thread heading down a bad road and am going to put a cool down lock on it.
OSB, I would put more faith in the knowledge of the people who are on this forum than on a whole staff of true bona fide engineers or crew of a top rated hot rod shop. Not because they have the formal training or cutting edge techniques, but because of their experience and their concern for each other's safety and ability to enjoy their buses. Personally, I would give careful consideration to the advice of the majority here and not do it. But as has been said, take all the answers pro and con, consider it and then make your decision. One thing is true, in a group of any size, there will be opposing opinions on anything and everything.
I do agree we are all more creatively conservative than we used to be. And at times that can be regretable. Creativity and thinking outside of the box is good as long as it doesn't cause a safety hazzard. But I also agree with the explanation posed earlier that everyone has watched a lot of very creative people launch their project and then give up the dream because they ran out of money, time, health, motivation or found too late that it wouldn't work. Before the age of the forums, bus nuts didn't witness so many lost dreams because their field of view was much more localized. Now we see the successes and at least to some degree become aware of the epic fails. So as a lot, we are all much more cautious about major structural changes.
OSB, you joined a community whose members know each other better than in most forum communities. Consequently, when new members arrive and jump right in, everyone would like to know more about them. That took time for me to get used to as well. But once people "know" you, it is one of the most family like communities I've ever found in an online forum. And I do mean family. There are indeed disagreements, irritations and moods. But there is also closeness, helpfullness and commaraderie. Even those who aren't best of friends, pull together to help each other and show their concern for one another. Do a forum search on "Daniel McMurphy" or look back through the archives and you will see many cases of that concern and help.
While I wouldn't want to see anything as formally required as an introduction, I do think it is good when new members introduce themselves in their first post and share a little about their experience level. That way they will avoid getting talked down to or have someone take for granted that they know how the fuel injectors work.
I encourage you to do what you want to do. As Clifford and others have said, it is your bus. Do it your way. Document it well and if works revel in the accomplishment. If it doesn't work, publish that too so that others can learn if it doesn't work and maybe save someone else down the road from the same.
But I would also suggest that before you take it any long trips, stress test it. Go to a big empty parking lot with speed bumps and run over several of them at 30 mph. Do some tight turning in both directions. Do a couple panic stops at 30mph. If you can find a place to do it safely, try a panic stop from your planned highway speed.
Then go back to your shop, put it up on blocks or ramps and go under it with a very bright light looking very closely for issues with special attention to the engine rails, u-joints, and overall straightness of the bus.
Lastly, for future posts, I am 100% certain that you will get better responses if you avoid sarcasm, especially in the subject line. If you honestly want feedback on an idea, express it that way and accept the responses yay or nay. Then use what is helpful in your decision making process and go with it. If you don't actually want feedback but just want to inform folks what you are going to do, post it that way and say "photos to follow and I'll let you guys know how it works out."