Every so often I real about someone blowing their air cleaner element out with an air gun. This is never a suggested way to clean your air cleaner. When blowing out the paper element, whether you see it or not, you're creating small holes in the paper allowing dirt to pass into the engine. When you consider a big truck/bus air cleaner element is usually less than $100.00, just replace the element if their is a question about it being dirty. Most NAPA auto parts stores will have them. It is a whole lot cheaper then a $10-15,000 engine overhaul. Good Luck, TomC
Many years ago, I was the AGM of a transit system on the east coast. We had about 50 fishbowls (half the fleet) with paper dry element filters. The previous management directed maintenance to blow them out. The result - we were overhauling 6V71's at 100,000-125,000 miles. Way below standards.
From that experience, when having my cars serviced, I won't let them service the air filter - I change it myself. I've seen Jiffy Lube type places shake the dust out of the filter, and put the filter back in. Guess what - the dust they shook off the outside, lands on the inside -- thus inside my engine.
Pay me now, or pay me later.
Arthur
I learned something new today...I completly agree the way you explained it.. I worked with heavy equipment all my working life and all the mechanics blow out air cleaners.I won't be blowing out mine any more!thanks for the post..
Hi Tom. I would like to explore this a bit further.
As an engineer and then a trainer of maintenance folks, I always had to deal with "textbook" vs "the real world". In the textbook area there are really two types of textbooks. Some are designed to sell the product, and some are based on real world experience. That is what I would like to explore.
I assume you are basing your recommendation on either experience at the dealer, or an air cleaner bulletin. Each has a quite different weight in my mind.
In the ag industry, the NORM is to blow out the air filter almost every day. In the dusty conditions, your could not begin to operate a combine if you had to replace the engine air filter every couple of days.
I tried to do a bit of a search, but did not find a authoritative site. I did find a military site that would suggest you can use air: http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/09/30/28061-the-mechanics-corner--weekly-air-filter-maintenance-a-must/
Another source I found said you could use 30 PSI air.
I have always used an open 1/4 inch hose so that the air flow is not concentrated.
Don't mean to be contrary, just trying to learn.
Jim
How about a filter sock that keeps the big stuff out of the paper pleats?
You could service the sock without disturbing the filter seal to the engine.
Of course, adding this sock would increase the pressure drop across the filter, so you'd have to take that into consideration. . . .
If you're working with what you have, I'd think a standard filter minder would tell you when to clean the sock.
If you're buying a new filter assy - -it might be easy to oversize the unit to allow longer service intervals.
The only filter I have ever blown out is the one on my shop vac, but then again, my buses have the oil bath . . . .
We had this same discussion some months back and it's all over the board. Some blow them out, others replace them. I replace mine , when it's needed. I don't even blow or shake it. I was told years ago to never blow them out, but that was in a different industry. Although the same principal. I have not read or heard of anything definitive in print to say what's best. I would really like to know what the real recommendation is from Detroit or other reputable business. I would think that blowing a paper element there is some risk of creating a hole you can't see. Of course the amount of pressure could make a difference, say 25 psi instead of 100 psi.
Tom, has to be talking about highway use every Cat manual I have says to clean the pre filter and blow the air cleaner as needed with 30lbs of air each day when in dusty conditions.
You are not going to damage a Cat or any good air filter with air maybe the cheaper aftermarket stuff I paid 250 a pop for some air filters it would have broke me buying air filters according to Tom and FWIW I never lost a engine because of dirt and they never sold me on the lifetime K&N filters.Paul my Bomags had 350 hp 6v92 and manual said blow and that we did 3 or 4 times a day and replaced it every 100 hrs.
I am not afraid to clean a good air filter with 30 lbs of air
good luck
I have a 277B cat skidsteer with rubber tracks, in dusty cond. you have to shake and bump it out twice a day, I usually carry a spare that I clean with air at the shop. This is very poor design for cat, I have a bobcat that can run right beside it and you are lucky if you clean it once a week. Sucks the air in from the top and not the bottom like the cat. Any way both machines have a inter cleaner that stays pretty clean and would catch the fines.
Here you go guys I knew I read it somewhere in the DD manual section 3.1 page 8 for a 92 series tells how to clean a filter with air also tell you how to wash one
good luck
One of the issues we have to deal with on our buses is that the air cleaner is generally in the read and the intake is about head high on many buses. That is an idea collector for dust kicked up by our rear wheels. A few years ago we had an Eagle rally in Quartzsite that was several miles off a paved highway. I had to clean the air cleaner each day.
As I say, I used an open 1/4 inch tube on the inside. I used the bus air system, so the pressure started off at perhaps 100 PSI but quickly dropped, as I was not running the engine (obviously).
I have worried about cleaning the filter with air, as I know that you can damage them if you are not careful. When I pulled my engine a couple of months ago, I carefully checked the inside of all of the inlet tubing and did not see any evidence of dust. When we inspected the engine, there was a bunch of damage, but none that would have been caused by dust.
When I did my search, I found about equal recommendations on both sides of the fence. It was interesting that several of the documents I found on the "don't use air" side were written by filter related businesses.
Jim
Sounds like a good topic for mythbusters! ;D
I bought my filter at International Truck place for $35 bucks. It is hard enough to put in that I would not put a used one in or blow it out close to short time regularly. Do need to fix my filter minder though ;)
If you're running an off road piece of powered equipment and you have to clean the element once or twice a day, the intake system is not designed right. If you have a well designed pre-cleaner that evacuates most all the dust by cyclone action before it even enters the actual air cleaner, you should be able to go at least 100 hours on an air cleaner. I saw a special on the biggest of Cat mining trucks, and they get 100 hours use out of their air cleaners. I know at Freightliner for off road all wheel drives, we have a cyclone pre cleaner that actually sucks the dust out of the pre cleaner and by a hose connected to a venturi in the exhaust that pulls the extra dust and dirt up the exhaust stack. Good Luck, TomC
I think there is another huge difference in the blowing out our current air filters VS, those manufactured 20,30,40 years ago. I believe the filters today are probably 1/2 as robust as back in the day. Our maintenance practices are radically different in industry due to labor costs & valued engineered products(made cheaper). I know the dealer supplied filters for my MB's are made off shore Pakistan & other locations...They are cheasy.
I would agree with Tom about blowing a hole in today's filters, but that might not have been a problem with 30lbs of air w/ older filters. As was indicated by Luvrbus on that.
Change 'em hot and often, like the oil.
Gary
What about oil bath air cleaners? what is the routine on those?
Brian
Tom,I am sure Cat,Deere,Bomag and Ingersoll knew what pre cleaner to use for the engines and if you never worked with lime and fly ash you have no idea what a mess it is even with water and the desert sand is a pain and rough on air cleaners.
My service guys followed the manufactures guide and blew the air cleaners like the manuals stated from the clean air side out worked for me but maybe not for all here.
Most mining outfits also wash their filters the off road filters don't have a chemical coating like the highway filters and can be washed several time's
good luck
I reluctantly wade into this knowing this is a hot button topic and Tom I hope you knew it when you started the thread.
Here's my experience with the using air to blow out air filters:
First of all, I thinkit's a good thing to invest in a airflow filter minder to see any restriction you may or may not have before air enters the engine.
I have to admit this was a budget issue for me and that is the main reason why I blew out my air filter a number of times before making the decision through Tom's advice that if I don't feel like spending $60 every spring on a new filter maybe I can't afford to own a bus. If it does prevent any issues that $60 dollars I spent on a new filter wouldn't buy me a set of main bearings not to mention the other repair bills I would incur.
But here is where my argument strays a bit and I have to stress this is hands-on experience:
The big difference that in my opinion trumps all the other "possible scenario" arguments is. There is NOTHING I have ever done to my current drivetrain that gave me such a difference in horsepower. I had just blown out my air filter for the 4th or 5th time and I read Tom's comments last time this was being discussed and being that I was in the middle of an entire cooling system rebuild I spent the money and WOW! the change was unbelievable. There few things that you can inexpensively do to an 8V71 that will make real noticeable differences at the rear wheels. But this is one of them. So, although it may be for different reasons, I agree with Tom C on this one. If I can't afford a new filter each spring I can't imagine how I can move my bus out of the driveway with the cost of fuel.
I think performance gets overlooked in these kind of arguments.
RB
Rick, I am not saying you can blow a filter forever if you read my post you will see after blowing the filter some I changed every 100 hrs.
How many of you guys read the filter specs for filtration on a air cleaner before just buying one, Cat,Deere, and DD all have one and 1/2 the aftermarket filters you buy at places don't even come close.
Tom made the statement you can not blow a filter with air and all I want is for him to post something from Donaldson showing not blow their good filters with air.
I done for 27 years with no problem up to 2002.
I don't understand why you would change a air every spring and not according to mileage
Good luck
Well Tom, for the last 5 seasons i have been running an off road Volvo haul truck on different jobsites. We have water trucks that wet down the roads and the area being excavated and even with all of that there are times when it is so dusty that you can't see the front end of the hood for a few seconds. There have been times i could not even see the windshield wiper......total, zero visability!!! I have been amazed at how long our air filters can run in that type of environment with out being cleaned or replaced. These rigs get serviced on a regular basis. A highway vehicle will never see conditions like this unless you get caught in a major dust/sand storm. The only way they could have a better location for the air filter is to put it inside the cab. ;D i have been running equipment for 30 years and every company that i have ever worked for blows out their filters if needed. If they get too bad they replace them sooner than the service interval calls for. I have never seen or heard of a engine gone bad because of this practice.....blown turbo or loss of water or low oil, yes. but never from dust...........except for one, and that happens to be my 8v71. The PO was putting jakes on it and had to cut into the air box to be able to get the taller valve cover on. ( its a 5A, not a lot of room in the engine compartment.) Before he patched the hole he had driven the bus thru a construction zone with a lot of really fine dust that got sucked in behind the filters and straight into the engine. Cost him a rebuild. Bad for him but good for me as i got the bus with only 13000 miles on the engine. I will shake/tap/ or lightly blow out my filters one time if needed if i go thru a bad area but i always replace my filters during my yearly service anyway so that very rarely happens. I still think this would be good topic for mythbusters to examine,.......scientific testing instead of personal opinions. i think i will send them an email and see if they are interested. ;D
Rick and Clifford posted while i was writing...... Rick i agree about performance of a new filter. That is why i will only blow it out once at the most.......4-5 times a year? where are you driving? I have 4 filters so it costs me a little more than $60 ;D when i do my yearly change, but i still think it is worth it.
I have to agree on this that in actual heavy duty off road construction equipment used in dirty dusty environments (think out side of city limits!) it is quite common to blow out the air filters at least once a day & replace regularly.
Back when I was trucking I religiously did full service PM's on my trucks every 15,000 miles and I either did a mid-service greasing & check on every thing every 7-8,000 miles (or I had the driver get it done where ever he was @ the time) One of the things I did regularly (every full service that I did!, not done on the road) was blow out the air filter 4-5 times each before replacing them. (I marked the date/mileage installed & each time blown out on the filter with a marker)
When the filters would not blow out "clean" I stuck a new one in (60-75,000 miles).
Now keep in mind these were over the road trucks and we were averaging 7-8,000 miles a week on them. We never went "off-rod" but there were many dusty or dirt parking lots around many of the produce houses we hauled out of.
Never once did I experience any problems related to this.
But in considering my drivers and I put more miles on in a week to a month than many converted coaches put on in a year. I would certainly replace the filter at least once a year regardless of $35 or $200. JMHO FWIW.
Remember buses are not trucks, and trucks are not construction equipment, but they all use the same engines and see different uses so YMMV! ;D
;D BK ;D
edit; (Ed cheated and posted twice on this while I was typing and answering phones! ;D}
Bk, i don't type fast but nobody calls me either. :)
Ed,
I don't type fast either, but people think that because we are a business that we should answer phones anytime after 8 AM ??? ! ;D
;D BK ;D
the ones I really love are the 3-4 AM calls (all calls below actual quotes & true 3-4 AM and we don't even have a Greyhound stop in Union City anymore. And if we did why would I now there prices and schedule!)
"ah, yeah hello, uh how much is a round trip ticket to Dallas?"
"Hi can you tell me what time the bus that left from Chicago @ 2 O'clock in the afternoon will be thru here? Ma sister is on that bus an I need to know what time she be here!"
"Is it too late to get a ticket for the 3:00 AM bus to Nashville?" @ 3:15 AM
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Thank you kind Sir, that is about the same as all equipment manufactures have in their manuals, you just enjoyed watching me swim in shark infested waters LOL have a good day Dallas
good luck
Well i went to the Mythbusters site and registered and tried to find out how to post an idea for the show and followed their directions , but all i got connected to was for Dirty Jobs and i think my idea would have just been buried somewhere and would never have been seen. Maybe somebody that is more computer savvy than me can try it and have better luck. You would think that since they are asking on the show for ideas that they would make it real simple to post something. ???
This straight from Donaldson. Good Luck, TomC
Clifford and Dallas,
I certainly didn't meant to give the impression that I know anything about 15 hour a day haulers at construction sites. You guys have experience there that I would never argue with. I did, however blow out my old filter numerous times and obviously however careful I was to get all the dirt and obstructions out it still paled in comparison to the hp difference changing my filter on my bus made. Maybe it was a batter designed air filter, maybe it was because I painted the inside of my air cleaner but for whatever reason it worked. I just have nore faith in that than a recommended guideline by a manufacturer who probablty wasn't even thinking about buses when they wrote it because we are such a minority when it comes to industrial and over the road designs and applications.
What does MCI say or Greyhound? Even that matters less to me than the difference I felt when I changed mine earlier this year.
If it's a waste of money so be it. If I was concerned about wasting $60 I should have never bought a bus. Heck, it costs me $100 before my bus reaches the doorway of most places.
As a guitar player the string manufacturers recommend changing strings weekly. I have a friend that can play my guitar for 5 minutes and my strings are toast. If I am careful and don't play my guitar with oil or grease on my hands I can go a couple months without any noticeable change. The change from a worn out set of strings and a new set is remarkable. That's the kind of horsepower change I got when I changed my filter. I never felt any change when i blew it out.
I respect you both immensely and I submit to the fact that you have both forgotten more about detroit's than I will probably ever know so please don't misread my interpretations of your advice. I hear both of you clearly and I will still have a new aircleaner in my bus come next spring. That's not disrespect on my part it just that it worked for me.
It really does take all kinds of people to make a world and I am sure there are absolutes that you follow in regards to how you maintain your engines that I either couldn't afford to do or that I haven't personally placed enough importance on.
Every mechanic I know has said to me time and time again that I need to drive my bus harder that i am hurting the motor when I don't but I still struggle to do it.
No harm, no foul...
Rick
I just got outr of the Navy and we blew out all of the filters. We could not use pressure above 20 PSI due to creating holes. Just my .02 cents
Brian, according to my book, ( for the 68 5A) the oil bath cleaners should be serviced, ie. cleaned and refilled every 3000 miles or less if in dusty conditions. Mine were converted over to dry cartridge type at some time. I change mine once a year because 1. i have about 5000 miles more or less on them. and 2. that works out to about 100 hrs. on them more or less.
If you read that they are speaking of the 2 pc filters inner and outer .
I just got off the phone with the guys in Hasting Ne.
They told me the single air filter is made different and uses different materail than the 2 pc and follow the manufactures recommendations as they are written by the filter company for that engine.
good luck
Thanks Clifford and Dallas for posting that reliable information. I will follow their guidelines now as they say it's OK to blow them out. Just make sure you know what kind of filter you have, cheapo or worth the extra bucks for a good one. I'll spend the extra few bucks to make sure it's the best filter for the job at hand.
I'm just glad we don't have dusty windy days here in West Texas! Yeah right! ;D
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Not to be washed and reused is the way I read it and I knew that.
good luck
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Quote from: Now Just Dallas on November 19, 2009, 04:38:00 PM
Well, Hows that for ambiguity! LOL
At the beginning of the paragraph it says washed or reused and in the last sentence it says washed and reused.
That leaves us right back at the beginning.... and I always use to blow them out also.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 19, 2009, 04:33:55 PM
Not to be washed and reused is the way I read it and I knew that.
good luck
That's the way I read it to, now what kind of oil do I use? ::)
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on November 19, 2009, 08:20:44 AM
Well i went to the Mythbusters site
They will only do it, if they can blow up something, Maybe ask if a dirty air filter will make a engine blow up? LOL Jack
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Jack, i kinda thought the same thing. Maybe if it involved a little C4? ;D