I've got a friend looking at a model 05 Eagle. Before we inspect it I'm trying to understand what actually happens when that tubular steel frame behind the stainless panels rusts. Does the bus break in half? Engine drop out the rear? Front suspension break off?
Also, might need someone in the Denver area to do a drive by inspection for us?
Fred
First off from what I understand they leave little piles of red dust or red stains (in the rain) everywhere. And according to Cody in Michigan the plates get cheaper every year!
No seriously, you need to contact;
Gary LaBombard here on this board .
He has done some very extensive research and made a very informative video on where & what to look for when it comes to Eagles.
;D BK ;D
The bus gets lighter over the years, hence you get better fuel mileage. Seriously, if you're inspecting the bus, you should be seeing cracking at key points long before a component "falls off". Personally-after seeing numerous rebuilds on Eagles, even with their great looks and suspension system, I'd spend my money elsewhere, like a MCI102C3. Good Luck, TomC
Fred , They areas to look at are around the wheel wells on the boggie and the drivers, My understanding of the Eagle is that the weight bareing is all done from the upper frame in the foof line and around the windows. Now Iam not the sharpest pencil in the box when in come to Eagles Iam new to this as well. You can go to the Eagles Internationl web site and look around there are some very smart guys over there that eat and sleep Eagles . Good luck Andy
All the other brand owners make fun of it on this board. ::) ::)
Well ya know what they say It's lonley at the TOP . lol
Quote from: Eagle Andy on October 17, 2009, 08:17:18 AM
Well ya know what they say It's lonley at the TOP . lol
Andy you are so right!
It's very lonely being up here on top with Setra's (Kassbohrer's refined and modern version of the Eagle, Kassbohrer was the original designer & mfg of the Eagle!) Paul Hastings, Harry aka "Harlee", Wayne Stanford, and me are the only ones I know of way up here on the top, but hey you Eagle owners are right up here beside us! ;D
;D BK ;D
I thought they were laying eggs and spawning these... ;D I keep following them hoping to catch one :D
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/stretch-Smart-car.htm (http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/stretch-Smart-car.htm)
Let's see... Rust Dust = eggs.... Well, I'm glad that's not true, that'd be like a blue whale being born the size of what it eats then growing up into that HUGE animal... We'd have trillions of little Eaglets running around right now with Leprechauns driving them! XD Of course, it wouldn't be so hard to find money then, and they'd immediately be hunted into extinction for the 1 microgram of gold they'd be carrying on them at the time... But hey, it adds up after a while! lol
-Mac
If you own an Eagle (like me) It's an excuse to buy more tools !!!
You got to have a good Mig welder, Plasma cutter, power hacksaw, cutoff saws,
all kinds of clamps, grinders . Get the Idea!!
ED
Fred, I would be glad to go look at an Eagle ( any Eagle). Maybe Jim can pry himself away from his enginw swap and go with me. If you need me to look at it call me. 303-591-0372
Good Luck Wayne
Some Eagles, like the NJT model 20's were built with corten? steel which is rust resistant. So, look around and get someone experienced to inspect the coach for you.
Art
Yep. I would be glad to go with Wayne. S&S is still holding my engine ransom, so I can find the time to help with the inpection.
Jim
three zero three 478 thirty five zero one
BTW, as you probably know, both Wayne and I have Eagles, so we have a bit of an idea of what to look for ;D
Andy,
Do not think for one minute that the MCI,s are rust free, far from it. The problem is they rust from inside out (You dont know its there). My MCI 9 was completely stripped and all the square tubing that was rusted was removed, replaced, painted with the rust preventative. then the panels were re installed with a heavier gauge metal. Another gad area on the MCI,s is around the engine rails (holding the engine in) some have bad problems in this area.
Rusty has a lot of experience with the Eagles, The Eagle group are very active and will help you guys with any challenges you may encounter.
John
Hope this helps.
Eagles in salt will generally rust in the fenderwells. The entire bus is made up of trusses, each side below the windows, across all axles in both directions. The first place I would look is straight down the sides at the belt line. This is where the painted siding meets the anodized siding. If you see waves there RUNNNNN. Any water that gets in runs down to that point. That is the bottom rail of the main support for the side truss. You can see it from inside the bays. Constructed from 1.5 x 3" tube. Next look under the windows. This is the top of main side truss. AC bay is another one. Look around bottom. Main truss area for drive, bogie and engine cradle trusses. Hope this helps. As for the other bus wanabes, we still soar like an EAGLE even though we are surrounded by turkeys, mci's, gmc's etc.... LOL!!!
Quote from: Ericbsc on October 17, 2009, 08:06:25 PM
As for the other bus wanabes, we still soar like an EAGLE even though we are surrounded by turkeys, mci's, gmc's etc.... LOL!!!
Ummm, Eric....You missed a couple of brands. I didn't see Prevost, Van Drool's, Setras (sorry BK, I had too), and Flex's. ;D ;D ;D Surely MCI's can't be all that bad, can they? ;D. I am not going to even say anything about the GMC's, because good people drive them, and I know that it must be a good bus then ;D.
God bless,
John
Did you know that Grummans are all aluminum?
Aint nothing like aircraft grade aluminum at resisting rust.
Al - u - minny - um!
Maybe this'll help
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2FDSC01469.jpg&hash=fc5de0bc16c7b023a0a4105b51dfae78485d5c69)
If anyone wants an Eagle with NO rust, contact Sonnie Gray, he has one for sale. He told me he found one here in TX, crawled all over it, he says it's the cleanest rust free Eagle he has ever seen.
The price is pretty good too!
Paul
A price would be nice. :)
-Mac
Ericbsc.
Based on your profile you dont even own a bus? Dont really have a profile I guess soaring is just wishful thinking for u?
Just know no bus gets away without any problems.
John
I have seen it, it do exist!!
However, except for the suspension, not much of it is original eagle, I guess it is an
ERICBEAGLE!!!!! :D
I'll go ahead and apologise for the bad humor now ;)
Now wait a minute I have the cleanest rust free Eagle LOL I was very fortunate to find a Bus that is in very good shape with little or no rust issues. There out there you just have to be lucky .
Thanks guys.
Jim does "S&S" mean Stewart and Stevenson? This '05 supposedly has an 8V71 rebuilt by their Denver location. I see from their web site they are a DD shop. Would you say thats a good thing?
Wayne and or Jim, we might take you up on your offer to give it a look. Its supposed to be in the Denver area. I can't recall the exact town its located in.
Fred
Fred, yes it is Stewart and Stevenson. They are a full DDC/Allison facility. I am told that there work is very good. The do a ton of both truck and bus work. I would guess that they still have competent people who can do mechanical two-stroke work, or did at that time.
I, of course, have an ax to grind with them, but that has nothing to do with the bus involved here.
Let us know. I always enjoy getting together with Wayne, and this is a good excuse.
Jim
three zero three 478 thirty five zero one
BTW, thanks for keeping this thread civil. We Eagle owners are used to taking a lot of guff, but sometimes it gets a little out of hand.
Quote from: rv_safetyman on October 18, 2009, 11:04:02 AM
BTW, thanks for keeping this thread civil. We Eagle owners are used to taking a lot of guff, but sometimes it gets a little out of hand.
I wonder why? Eagles are a great bus, and the only people that I have known that really make fun of them, are the ones that wish (way down deep inside) they had Eagles. Maybe someday I will be able to afford one....
God bless,
John
Hello, my name is cody, I have an eagle, lol, is there a 12 step program for me? lol Actually each bus has problems in their own areas, eagles have a chance of rust, mci seems to have a problem with ongoing air line or air bag problems, some buses have to have their parts come from europe, whatever bus your interested in, have it inspected, make sure the drive train is what you want, if you want an auto, don't buy a stick lol, have a mechanic or someone knowledgeable inspect it, do your homework and spend wisely up front to save money down the road. Buses will hook you and then your a goner like the rest of us with the biggest differece being your in great company. The one thing that you can count on is that any problem or ailment you fix will probably outlive you and maybe your kids too, they are built for the long haul but like anything else they may break from time to time, but the fix, if done properly will likely be permanent.
I got nothing against Eagles as a matter of fact I like them. I have an MCI because i liked the styling and we have an excellent MCI shop here in the Minneapolis area. And for my first bus I wanted good resources nearby. I've seen rusty MCI's too. Mines got its share of rusted out areas in the steel tubing in the engine compartment area but we've fixed that all. Fortunately the air beams, and everything structural is OK.
It will be fun to research this Eagle. Its an 05 with 10 caps. Might get a chance to fly out and join you guys on an inspection. Lets see what the next few days bring. This is for my buddy who just sold his schoolie because he got tired of trying to keep up with me on the interstate LOL. (hope he doesn't read this post)
Fred
Fred,do you have a vin number on the coach yet? Some ownership history could be good to know also,Hope your friend lands a good one, Good luck ;D
Van 8)
Our '76 "05" was a "good" deal -- for the guy who sold it to us-- but the fresh engine did get us across the country fully loaded to the gills, buckling panels and bent bogie axle included. Bus bounced a lot, rusty clumps fell off once dealing with the "whoop dee doos" in Carolina- so bad at times had to apply the brakes to settle the front end. Made it to the west coast in once piece however. Blew the PTO shaft coming out of Yellow Stone and got stranded in a scary town for a couple days.
Eventually discovered the front suspension to space frame members were collapsing. Boxed them in with sheet metal with a small MIG welder. Thankfully my cat kept me company while running the welder into thermal shutdown ;D
The raised panel solid Oak wood work was nice and massive Kubota 4cyl genset purred nicely.
With a turning circle of a city block, anything but truck stops and other large parking lots are nightmarish to deal with, especially when towing a car. Never again. Love the 35' MCI, turns great, PS too!
Glad the owner after me had the funds to treat the Eagle right. Would I ever get another one, unlikely, but almost did-- a 1968 '01', with 6spd auto, 8V92TA and 10" raised roof for cheap and professional interior. Good pictures revealed too much rust damage for my taste.
Love the concept behind an Eagle, but can't justify the burden of frame issues. Can't afford one that's been redone, or newer to assure solid framework.
So, from GMC, to Eagle, to MCI we are. The GMC was flawless for a '63-- never knew how good I had it-- not any rust, none whatsoever.
Best of luck and let us know what you end up with.
Gary
Dear Johns 4014's
As a matter of fact I do own a RUST FREE Eagle. Made it that way myself by cutting out every pc. of rust as I stripped it to the bare frame myself. Took me 8 plus years to take it apart and put it together!! Have you ever done that, or are you to busy with your feeble effort to intimidate via the keys? Happens to be my second Eagle. I guess my little crack about flying like an Eagle ruffled your FEATHERS? Seems like all you wanabe's are very quick with your humor when you get a chance to trash the eagle, but turn into an butt when someone puts it back at you!! This board has lost several experianced people because of just that!! I however am just NOT SKEERED!! I will come back to every come back. Why, Because if I can tear a 40k lb. bus apart and put it back together I'm more than a little crazy to start wiith. If you want to go have at it, but remember what they say in the nut house WERE ALL HERE BECAUSE WERE NOT ALL THERE!! p.s HAVE A NICE DAY EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T HAVE AN EAGLE
Dear John, I have also added a picture and website so you will feel better. Probably dosen't look as nice as your little picture. But it is my bird. Just wondering why your picture looks like an mci when you are johns 4104's
It always amuses me when I see something advertised as being made of Al and that it won't rust!
Of course it won't rust, no non-ferrous metal will rust but it sure will corrode.
And what is rust.... corrosion!!
It makes no difference what you call corrosion it will make your metal toy fall apart in time.
Ericbsc,
Well said.
John
Quote from: Ericbsc on October 18, 2009, 08:41:18 PM
....remember what they say in the nut house WERE ALL HERE BECAUSE WERE NOT ALL THERE!! ...
:D :D :D
I guess that applies to the busnut house too,
Thanks for the giggle this morning ;D
John, Even though you don't have an eagle you are an early bird up!!! Glad you have a good sense of humor also!! Thanks for the reply. Just courious is it 4104 of mci? Pic looks like MCI.
Ericbsc,
The photo is a 1981 MCI 9, I did not do the conversion, but I know all about the rust that was on it. Florida airport low milage bus, but still had all sorts of rust??
John
Fred, If you fly out and it is a one day trip I will be glad to pick you up at the airport that way you won't have to rent a car.
Wayne
Quote from: johns4104s on October 19, 2009, 05:18:48 AM
The photo is a 1981 MCI 9, I did not do the conversion, but I know all about the rust that was on it. Florida airport low milage bus, but still had all sorts of rust??
Florida can mean salt air (thus rust) if vehicles are operated near one of the coasts.
I have a 74 model non converted Eagle plus my driver with no rust they are out there but hard to find a school in CA had the last 05 built I looked at not a spec of rust no where sold for around 15 grand
You have to love a Eagle to put the time,effort and money into one like most have done.
The first and a easy place to check is the electrical door if it is in good shape in that section it is probably a soild bus because that is the hardest section to repair the rest is a cake walk.
good luck
Eagle for sale, some restoration needed.
Len,
Sorry, pal. You got it wrong. That happens to be a MCI. I have seen more MCI rust, then I care to admit.
God bless,
John
No John, it's an Eagle. But even in that condition it's a better bus than an MCI. :D
If it's not a silly question, does anyone know why Eagles rust so badly? Is it bad design (eg. water traps), bad construction (eg. lack of rust protection), bad materials (eg. wrong type of steel), or something less obvious such galvanic corrosion between the different materials? Or is it all a myth and they're actually no worse than other buses of the same era?
Jeremy
Quote from: gus on October 18, 2009, 10:16:00 PM
It always amuses me when I see something advertised as being made of Al and that it won't rust!
Of course it won't rust, no non-ferrous metal will rust but it sure will corrode.
And what is rust.... corrosion!!
It makes no difference what you call corrosion it will make your metal toy fall apart in time.
Not so fast...al-u-minny-um does oxidize, but its oxides form protection from further oxidation. Unless you have additional factors like being immersed in an electrolyte with an electrical charge passing through, it pretty much stops right there.
Quote from: Jeremy on October 19, 2009, 01:05:07 PM
If it's not a silly question, does anyone know why Eagles rust so badly? Is it bad design (eg. water traps), bad construction (eg. lack of rust protection), bad materials (eg. wrong type of steel), or something less obvious such galvanic corrosion between the different materials? Or is it all a myth and they're actually no worse than other buses of the same era?
Jeremy
It's all a myth. Eagles are no more prone to rust than any other bus of the same era with the exception of the GMC's
Jeremy -
Your question is not a silly one, it's actually one that really hasn't been addressed w/o lots of smoke.
As Len pointed out, some of the rusting Eagle stuff is a myth, often perpetrated by those who really want to skewer Eagle owners for whatever reason. But he's right in the sense that other brands from the same era suffer rust problems too - some early Prevost Champions and LeMirages for example, are just as bad, if not worse.
Yes, GMCs are less prone, due to their high concentration of aluminum in their construction, but they, too, have corrosion issues. Just ask anyone who has let one sit outside with peeling paint along the coasts.
But to answer your question, with the exception of the NJT Eagles and later when Eagle switched to Cor-Ten steel, it was a combination of all three factors that you threw out there that created the problem. When you look at the exploded birdcage construction of the frame schematic that Van posted, you can see where the potential is, especially with untreated (or under-treated) steel in the wheel well areas. The frame itself, btw, is extremely strong.
As you can see, a leaking window or exterior light, could allow water to run down inside the walls and pool at the floor = hidden damage. But this is the same problem MCI & Prevost owners face. The GM guys don't usually talk about this, but the later models, especially the Buffalos towards the end of production, have some serious rust problems, primarily around the upper deck transition area. You rarely hear about corrosion on a 4104 - some say this was the most over-engineered coach ever built, as GM went to great lengths to minimize corrosion, not only of the aluminum, but also to reduce electrolysis and rust where steel was incorporated into the suspension mounting points along with other nooks & crannies. After the '04, however, the bean counters cheapened the highway coaches right up until the end of production. (All this from a GM owner, too!)
In my years in the bus industry, I saw few Eagles out here on the West Coast with corrosion problems, mostly due to our lower humidity and lack of using salt on the snow-covered roads in winter. That's why you often hear "try to find one from the SW portion of the US".
I know that the Europeans often use body-on-frame construction techniques, so you face different issues. But this gives you a general pic of what happens to our coaches over time.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Wayne/Jim,
thanks for the willingness to help. The seller has received an offer and has withdrawn the bus from the market right now. Maybe this one will fall through like his last offer did. It would have been fun to come out and meet you guys.
Fred
Quote from: Jeremy on October 19, 2009, 01:05:07 PM
If it's not a silly question, does anyone know why Eagles rust so badly? Is it bad design (eg. water traps), bad construction (eg. lack of rust protection), bad materials (eg. wrong type of steel), or something less obvious such galvanic corrosion between the different materials? Or is it all a myth and they're actually no worse than other buses of the same era?
Jeremy
Tubing construction has the disadvantage of once water gets inside the tube, it keeps the inside wet for a very long time. If you have ever tried welding something air (water vapor) tight, you know how difficult it is to do - especially when it is a structural framework.
It is difficult to apply corrosion inhibitors inside the tubes - If done before fabrication, the heat of welding will burn it off. The weld joints are the areas of highest stress. Strange thing is that the higher the stress level, the higher the rate of corrosion.
If the framework is sheet metal bent in a Z profile, there isn't the problem of trapped water inside. Also, it is easy to apply the corrosion inhibitors after welding.
Also, Eagles use the tubing frame to carry all the structural loads - The GM construction used the siding (inside & out) to help carry the structural loads.
Different design styles have different 'issues'. If it can be converted in to a motorhome of your liking, then it is a good bus. Choosing the best of the available buses/ shells will save time & $$$.
I haven't seen one yet that couldn't be rebuilt if enough $$$ was thrown at it. ;D
I just can't help myself here - The joke keeps staring me in the face. I love ALL buses! So here goes:
Question: "What happens when an Eagle rusts?"
Answer: "An angel get's it's wings!"
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Glenn
:-*
Ahoy, BusFolk,
Yah, I have an Eagle. Everything above which is said is true. We rust!!!!
A 'small' repair job on an Eagle looks to me like a terrible piece of work. Hard to get at. A 'big' repair job which plans that you will have 'a bare bones frame' is not that much more work. I would NOT consider an Eagle which did not go down to 'bare bones'.
On my -01 Eagle, there is very little steel within 1/2 foot of the bottom which is not new. And, all the skin, except the roof, is new.
The thing which is not stated is that all of the 'very substantal work' goes very fast!!!
A friend and self did all the flat skin on my Eagle in less than a week. I ain't that difficult!!!
And, when you are done, you have a really fine bus to start your bus conversion.
Not likely to rot-out on your watch
Enjoy /s/ Bob
Ob1quixote,
Of course all that is true for some Al alloys in theory and in the lab, but try telling that to some hapless airplane owner who sees his nice shiny toy fall apart from corrosion!!
Any corrosion involves outside forces, including rust. However, those forces are right there from the day the metal is formed - trying to return the metal to its original raw material form.
Thanks for the explanations; I had wondered whether it was something to do with the monocoque design, although I had thought it might be because the tubing was thinner-wall rather than because it being stressed that caused more rusting (that's something I've not heard before). The majority of European buses are monocoque as well, but I don't know enough about the different makes to know whether any have a particular reputation for rusting - I dare say some are just as bad.
The tubing on my bus is bare steel inside, which I've always thought was strange given how easy wax injection (for instance) would be. All the lower sections do have rubber drain tubes in them, and I've let to find any serious rust anywhere. The roof and various other parts on mine are aluminium as you would expect, but the main side skins are galvanized steel.
Jeremy
As Kyle stated, one problem with the tubing is once water or condensation gets in, it can not get out. When i converted out model 10, I drilled holes in the bottom of the inside wall tubing and water ran out of some of them. I followed what other Eagle owners have done and drilled holes in all my tubing and filled it with spray foam. that stopped the condensation and water in the tubes. It also helps with the heat and cold transfer to the inside of the bus. On a cool damp morning I cannot see the tubing on the sides of my bus like a lot of others so I know the spray foam is working.
Tom Hamrick
1984 Eagle 10S
Guys, Guys, Guys, Guys - we got kind of off track here.
Do the wheels fall off? Does the bus break in the middle? Do the torsilactics pull out of the frame and the body rubs on the tires? Engine drop out? I'm guessing the stainless siding would hold it all together for a long time.
FRed
Quote from: Fredward on October 27, 2009, 07:49:41 AM
Guys, Guys, Guys, Guys - we got kind of off track here.
Do the wheels fall off? Does the bus break in the middle? Do the torsilactics pull out of the frame and the body rubs on the tires? Engine drop out? I'm guessing the stainless siding would hold it all together for a long time.
FRed
Fred the Eagles used Aluminum!
And just to quote a well known bus salesman that sold my uncle an Eagle once back when he was in the charter bus business after the sale was done, papers signed, $ & TITLE EXCHANGED.
"Well this deal is done. Now you do understand if it breaks in half pulling out the gate, both halves are yours right?"Well you know the saying "live & learn"?
My uncle sure learned on that one! It was only the second or 3rd bus he'd bought and boy did he learn! After that he took someone that knew a little about inspecting one with him to buy! (usually dad or I!)
;D BK ;D
Just can't recall ever seeing a eagle that broke in half, I do know where a broken MCI sits tho lol.
Most are smart enough to recognize the signs of impending failure before it separates into two pieces.
Examples
- it looks like it is sitting in a hole while on level ground
- rivets are unzipping along a seam or two
- body pulling away from the window frames
- floor is buckling
I did see a picture of a bus on the side of the road with the engine & transmission still in the traffic lane. . . I do wish I had saved that one.
I have seen eagles with alot of rust and still going down the road. I think that tells a little about how over built they are. I would be carefull of a lot of rust on the engine cradle. That cradle was made to hold the engine and most put a toebar on that cradle. The extra stress with a lot of rust and the engine could come lose. The rust around the Torsilastic mounts is another place to look. My 05 had a lot of rust there ( about 40% rust) and the bus was still OK ( I did replace it). The bottom rail of the main frame ( the one at floor level ) is the one I would look at. This tube is mostly in tension and is very important to the strength of the frame. The fender wells are there to hold the siding and not real important. Hope this answers the original ?
Good Luck Wayne
Here are a few shots of Don Fairchild driving a model 20 down the PCH, well maybe not so much rust but there darn sure wasn't much else ;D enjoy.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2F3.jpg&hash=c2cce19e54e51790307aaf220abe7759e559a626)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2F4.jpg&hash=6439591e08fe77892d4421bef53652e1f2355577)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi457.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq292%2Fcwvanhagen%2F5.jpg&hash=189e72c800adc69f9ff9b21810ffee415527fc8a)
"I did see a picture of a bus on the side of the road with the engine & transmission still in the traffic lane. . . I do wish I had saved that one."
Kyle, What kind of bus ? Bet not an Eagle !!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
ED
Quote from: Ed Brenner on October 27, 2009, 10:09:45 AM
"I did see a picture of a bus on the side of the road with the engine & transmission still in the traffic lane. . . I do wish I had saved that one."
Kyle, What kind of bus ? Bet not an Eagle !!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
ED
Probably an MCI! ;D
;D BK ;D
FWIW We have a tour guide that uses our buses who drove for Greyhound for 33 yrs. When we told him why we retired #707 he laughed and said "oh yeah, that brings back memories!"
Come to find out he was personally bebopping down the Cimarron Turn Pike in Oklahoma one night and heard a "kawalothump......thumb.bump...da...bang" (Bob's exact description! LOL!) and the bus slowed to a halt as he coasted to the should of the road.
He told us he got out of the bus to see what happened just as a car coming down the road behind him hit something and went airborne landing on it's side!
Come to find out the engine/trans cradle and all had fallen out of the bus and was in the center of the lane and the car driver didn't notice it until right before hitting it!
Later he found out from a Greyhound mechanic that it was not the first time it'd happened to that same bus and some others!
Dang It's lonley at the top ;D
Don't know about MCI, but on the 4104, it would only take two nuts not tightened down for the cradle support tubes to fall out and the whole shebang end up in the road.
come on the bus has earth friendly A/C