Where is it spelled out that the tires should be replaced in 7 years because of safety considerations? Is Bridgestone different?
Thanks much,
John
No where. I replaced my first set of Dunlops at 12 years- mainly because the bus is stored indoors. If the bus is out doors all the time- yes 7 years is good rule of thumb. I wouldn't replace them until I saw side wall rubber cracking. Good Luck, TomC
FWIW, Michelin recommends a maximum service life of 10 years for their tires:
http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/toolbox/reference-material.jsp (http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/toolbox/reference-material.jsp)
Scroll down the bottom of the page and download the TB entitled "Service Life for RV/Motorhome Tires".
If you sell your tires befor they start checking it's possible to get a fair amount of money from them. I sold 2, 7 year old Michelans for $400 and applied the money to the purchase of a new set. JIm
I was on the fence and milking 7 - 10 year old tires, with the slightest of cracking. Looking at prices, brands etc,etc.
With the import tax, I am going to purchase as I beleive that all US manufacturers will be taking price, after the Chinese tax is implemented.
Some brands going up next month, or that is what the nice tire man said, actually several, I will get off the pot and get it done.
With inside storage hopefully mine will last the 12 TomC got in Sunny Calif....
I took my 8 year Michelin off and have been running them on the front of a dump truck for the last two years. reason I took them off was I changed size.Tires still look good.
Truckers, I believe, do not have a choice. I don't remember where I saw or heard this, BUT....if we sell our underused tires at the 5 or 6 year mark, then they have value to truckers who can finish off their useful lives in quick order. My 7 year old tires have 20,000 miles. My bus is stored in doors. Ain't no way I am buying before 9 years, but next time around, I hope to watch it better, and get some value for my tires.
John,
If you are looking for an authoritative document in the U.S., there isn't one.
There has been a long-running debate on this topic in automotive safety circles, with safety advocates on one side trying to get either legislation or voluntary standards passed, and the tire and rubber manufacturers on the other side resisting any such efforts with all their might (and considerable lobbying dollars).
ABC's 20/20 program just did an expose on this very subject; it was centered around a lawsuit brought by a family whose son died in a horrific crash caused by old tires, sold as new, that blew at highway speed:
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/2008/07/21/2008-07-21_old_tires_sold_as_new_ones_lawsuit.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/2008/07/21/2008-07-21_old_tires_sold_as_new_ones_lawsuit.html)
The seven year figure is a compromise on the side of safety, and it is the law in Europe, where tire sales are much more tightly regulated than in the U.S. (in Germany, for example, you must replace tires only with the exact make and model the car came with). The NFPA also mandates replacement of tires older than 7 years on fire apparatus and other emergency response vehicles. Some safety groups advocate tires be replaced no later than 10 years:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/tire_expire.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/tire_expire.htm)
Having suffered two blowouts on my bus on tires that showed no visible damage, I am a firm believer. One of those blowouts caused $3,000 in damage to other things in the wheel well, including all the suspension air lines and fixtures, and sidelined the bus for a full month. I also now use a full-time tire pressure and temperature monitoring system.
When I buy new tires, I insist that the tires they give me be no older than 18 months, since a set of drivers lasts me nearly five years. If I used my bus even less, and expected the tread to last even longer, I would insist on even newer rubber. If I need a used tire for whatever reason (I try not to put expensive tires on the tags), I make certain it is no older than 6, and that it will be no older than 7 when I retire it.
Some vehicle manufacturers now recommend replacement of tires over a certain age, including Ford (still smarting from the Explorer Firestone debacle), who recommends tires over six years old be replaced.
If you spend enough time researching this, you will get a variety of answers; most safety experts agree that tires five years or younger are safe (provided they are undamaged and have enough tread), and most also agree that tires 10 years or older should be replaced regardless of condition -- even "new" on the shelf. In between those numbers there is not widespread agreement.
The tire industry knows darn well that tires don't last forever, and will even admit that tires need to be run on the road for the rubber to remain elastic (movement and flexing keeps the oils in the rubber moving around), but have resisted any kind of "expiration date" for fear they will end up with unsellable product in the pipeline. They've even resisted making the manufacture date more transparent to the consumer (it's buried in the DOT number; you have to know where it is and how to read it), and some tire dealers go so far as to instruct their technicians to install the tires with the DOT code to the inside.
The bottom line is that, today in the U.S., it is entirely up to you how old the tires on your coach can be. There is no law, and even a commercial truck would not be subject to red-tagging just on the basis of date code (visible damage such as weather-checking, sidewall cuts, and, of course, inadequate tread will get you cited in a heartbeat).
So to coin a phrase, "You have to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya ... ?"
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Two years ago at the converted coach raley we had Michelin Tire rep. come in to give a talk about their tires. I think they used to say only 6 or 7 years, now that has gone to 10 years depending on what the tire looks like. They had pictures of the different type of cracking that you could compair with your tires.
After the talk we went out and checked the tires on the coach's that were there. There was a coach with tires over 20 years old. They didn't have any cracks, but the rep. said he wouldn't ride across the street with them.
One of my friends and neighbor here in Florida lost his wife in a wreck last year with a tire blow out. He was driving a 2000 Monaco when a tire blew and off the road into a tree. He had the coach up for sale and was going to put on new tires when he got back to NC. I hadn't looked at his tires, but others said they didn't look bad. They were 10 years old. Some of you may know Graham Morgan, he was a bus nut for over 30 years until he bought the Monaco.
Jack
Thank you All,
Sean, you really came thru. I didn't intend it but you made a great case for Tort law and those slimy attorneys. ;) In Europe, you can't sue mfr.s like you can in the USA. Their health care is provided for everything, their pay is guaranteed if they are disabled, and because the Gummint is on the hook for all that "money" so the Gummint takes special care to police the Mfr.s with regs and inspection and the consumer heartily approves. The voter demands that the Gummint protect the consumer. We have a much more open system and we rely on Tort law and it's monetary consequences to keep the Mfr.s honest and in line. The curious thing, to me, is that the Mfr.s and Dr.s are really making a push to have Tort law reformed....read abolished and they are getting a HUGE amount of support from the consumer. The consumer is the one with his chestnuts in the fire so it makes no sense to me at all. "They" have been successful at destroying all confidence in our Gummint and its role as protector.
So, what set this off was my new set of tires. Last year I searched for new tires for my 74 Winniebago. I brought her back to life for service for one and a half years till Mama retires and we can full time in a used Pre. There were a lot of flags on the deal but I managed to ignore all of them. I asked specifically for the date codes for each tire but was told that there were no codes on Bridgstone because of some exemption but that the tires were less than 2 years old. Well, I have learned to read that code and I did find it on my tires.....all were made in 98 or 99. The bright side is that they are not cracked anywhere I can see >:( >:( >:( I had hoped I had some recourse but apparently I don't. Kinda wish we were in Europe for this one.
Thank you all for your help,
John
Quote from: JohnEd on October 11, 2009, 08:34:55 AM
... I asked specifically for the date codes for each tire but was told that there were no codes on Bridgstone because of some exemption but that the tires were less than 2 years old. ...
LOL... that's the first time I've heard that one. As you know now, there are no exemptions; all tires sold in the US must have a DOT code, and part of that code is the date of manufacture (other parts tell you exactly which plant made the tire, so for all those buy-American folks, you can check for yourself). Ther Japanese company Bridgestone (makers of Bridgestone, Firestone, and Dayton tires) is no better or worse than any other tire company nor do they enjoy any special privileges.
Of course, if I had a nickle for every time I got information that was just plain wrong from a supposedly reputable commercial tire dealer... What I have learned about this (and many other subjects) is to become my own expert, and trust no one who is selling anything. Before I bought a bus, I knew nothing about commercial tires.
If it was a new-tire dealer who gave you that line of BS, you might think about trotting down to small claims court and filing suit for the value of the tires, or what it did (or will) cost you to replace them. Filing is usually a nominal fee. These guys might offer you something to settle the case just to avoid the hassle, and worst case, you'll waste a day in court and lose. You might just as easily win, or the judge may award you partial damages on the basis of a dealer being deceptive, or the dealer may not even show up, in which case you will win by default (and then you will probably need to have the sheriff go after the money).
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
You might ask Larry his impressions from the day he wrestled TempBus, our 4107, over to the side of the road after blowing a 9-yr-old front tire. Seems like I remember that it was not a picnic.
We were rolling along and all of a sudden, Larry said, "Hmmm, I think I'm going to pull over, I feel a little vibration. . . " BAAAAAAAAM! :o The passenger tire blew, and it was loud as can be, slapping the underside of my wheelwell. I'm thinking that Larry was mighty glad someone had put Shepherd Steering on the rig, because as it was, he had to keep a really firm grip on the wheel as he eased us on over to the side of the interstate.
Me, having heard so much about fires from blown tires, well, as soon as I could tell he had the bus under control, I unbelted, jumped up and grabbed the fire extinguisher and perched in the stairwell, ready to "do my part" by keeping us from burning down. I looked pretty silly, when, as he finally came to a hault, I vaulted out the door, landing in a perfect firefighter crouch, extinguisher aimed at the errant tire, only to find, to my chagrin, that we were not in any danger of immolation. Oh well, guess maybe next time I ought to actually ASK Larry if I should do anything, ha ha.
Anyway, needless to say, we had two new front tires installed that day, and then replaced the rear four later. I don't know, but it just looks to me that when in doubt, it seems logical to take the safer route. I've heard so many horror stories of damage done by blown tires. .. my brother has is air lines taken out by one. . . my aunt tire a hole in the bottom side of her coach. . . others have torn everythying from propane lines to wiring. . . I don't know but it just seems that good tires are still the cheaper route.
We added a tire monitoring system ourselves, which has already paid off in preventing damage to our Jeep after blowing a front tire on it. Me, well, I guess I'd rather spend a few thousand on safety before I spent it on paint. .. so don't look TOO close at our "home-grown" paint job, ok???? :-[ Christy Hicks
Geeez, Miss Christy,
You would think that I would remember to read my own signature line at the bottom of posts.........
It is exactly what you and others are reinforcing, by example. BTW, I am getting to old for such excitment.
Gary
In March we had a 6year old goodyear blow on the right front.. 95% tread kept inside. Goodyear said it was low air pressure.. Funny the bus never pulled . The only low air was about 1 second it took for the tire to go away..it had 110 lb of air..315 80r 22.5..no more Goodyear for me...
Robert, there are always two sides to every story. Granted, tire dealers can always find ways to find fault with everything but the tire construction.
However, there are a large number of pretty credible studies that suggest a very high number of tire failures are the result of under-inflation. The studies suggest percentages in the high 80s and low 90s.
Being in the business, I hear a huge number of stories about folks who religiously check their tire pressures, only to discover that they have picked up a foreign object ***after*** their last pressure check. This happens a lot on the rear axle(s) or the toad because the front tires kick up something on the road.
The tire would not have to be low enough to create a "pull" to be fatiguing the tire at a high rate due to low pressure.
Recall that tires fail from one of three general categories (can be a combination): fatigue, chemical impact (mostly ozone), and road damage. Low pressure ***hugely*** increases the fatigue rate. Road damage can come in the form of hitting objects in the road or "curbing" the tire. Not having the correct tire capacity also increases the fatigue rate.
I do not see it as much on buses, but some motorhomes are close to the axle/tire limit when they leave the factory. I can't recommend strongly enough having your bus weighed to make sure your tires are the proper load rating. If you go to a major FMCA rally, they have a service that does that for a nominal fee. They weigh each side of each axle and give you a report of those weights compared to *your* brand of tire weight capacity. You can also go to a public scale or a gravel pit and have your coach weighed for a very nominal fee. They will do each axle and may even allow you to repeat the process with one side of the bus off of the scale. Many states allow you to pull into a closed weigh station - they leave the scales on.
Not trying to defend GY, but they could be correct.
This thread has been informative, even to a person in the business (both now and in my 34 years at Gates -- half of which they were still in the tire business).
As has been noted, there really is not a definitive document on tire replacement age. In the recent past, I thought that the tire recap industry had to adhere to a mandated policy of not recapping truck tires that had a code date indicating the tire was over 7 years old. I did some checking and and found out that the document/regulation apparently does not exist.
As has been said, it comes down to what you feel comfortable with, coupled with very close examination of the tire on a periodic basis.
Lastly, I want to reinforce that if you have a 22.5 or 24 size tire it has a pretty good resale value. The challenge is to find a way to sell it. The dealer is not likely to give you anywhere near the real value of the tire.
Jim
I dropped off a couple of 8 year old Michelins for casing credit the other day and the recapper told me he was going to junk them. "Hey, thems virgin Michelins there" I said, to which he replied that based on their age, the capper would not cap them.
Dave, I hope you got them back.
A trucker would love to run them on a trailer and would pay a reasonable price for them.
Jim
Jim,
Would you accept a 11 year old unused "new" tire to run on the front axle? I am being serious and that is not intended to be a smart a.. question.
Thanks,
John
Quote from: JohnEd on October 14, 2009, 08:15:25 PM
Jim,
Would you accept a 11 year old unused "new" tire to run on the front axle? I am being serious and that is not intended to be a smart a.. question.
Thanks,
John
Me, NO WAY! And I'm not being a S-A either! But yer mileage may vary! ;D BK ;D
Quote110 lb of air..315 80r 22.5.
Seems high. Must have a pretty high axle load on the front.
When we replaced our rear tires, they were 9 yrs old, but looked great. The tire shop told us that they don't "buy" any tires that are more than 5 years old.
Since we had blown one already, I really have no reason to think that anyone would want to pay for a big round piece of trouble. Blowing a tire is WAY more expensive than what you save by buying a used one. ..even for truckers. I can't imagine anyone who puts a lot of miles on his rig, even considering buying such an old tire. IMHO, Christy HIcks
It would appear that my posts have been twisted a bit.
I would never recommend running old tires on the front axle of anything!!! Period!
Running older tires on the rear axle(s) of a bus is a gamble because of the damage it can cause.
Running old tires on the axles of a semi-trailer presents minimal risk of damage.
Most cities of any size has a quarry and there are a huge number of local rock/dirt haulers and these truckers are often struggling to make a living. They would gladly use old tires on the trailer. The old tire will pass an inspection if they are stopped, but the old code date will not put them out of service.
I did not say what I think is old. My goal is to replace my front tires at 5-6 years from the date of INSTALLATION. I did a lot of work on storage damage in the rubber industry and any typical warehouse ambient condition will do almost zero damage to the tire
Jim
QuoteThey would gladly use old tires on the trailer.
Shoot. . .the last time my father-in-law had a new tire on a trailer was the day he purchased the trailer, :D.
Larry'd pull a tire off of something because it was old and wore out, and his dad would be sniffing around behind him saying, "You gonna use that tire????". . . or Larry'd say something about needing to put new tires on something and his dad would say, "Weeeeellllll, I think I got a couple of those laying out there in the weeds from a trailer from some time ago. . . . .". . . :D :D :D
Course, having said that, he SURE wouldn't pay much for a used tire either, ;D. ahhhhhh, the memories! ;) Christy Hicks
The lack of correlation is the problem with anecdotal information. When brands of tires are discussed here, there are numerous reports of this or that brand prematurely self destructing. When in reality nobody knows.
A few years ago there was a bus owner who claimed he never ran tires less than 10 years old because of price. He lived in Socal and only boondocked with his converted city bus in Mexico and the CA desert. His brag was he had never had a tire failure.
When I bought my bus the PO said the tires were original to "1985". She used the tires for a couple of cross country bonding trips with young relatives when the tires were over 16 years old. I changed the tires because they were checking at what I thought was 24 years of age but upon going thru the paper work found out they were 27 years of age.
I drove to Santa Barbara one weekend, to Glamis on another and a bunch of new guy aimless driving. Each trip consisted of 300 combo miles. The bus drove like a dream on 27 year old tires front and back. I had problems with a bait and switch when changing the Michelins for Bridgestones, that is detailed in another thread about brands.
I guess bottom line would be: run heavy, fast and long? You might want to change earlier rather than later. Jump curbs, ride timber trails and run naked in the woods? Still might change earlier rather than later. Drink lots of coffee, protect your tires, ride slow and easy? You might be able to push the recommendations.
JohnEd, my Bridgestones had a date and speed code that I had to decipher myself. The dealer personnel clearly didn't know. Also, I would not be surprised, if the tort law you admire, is part of the motivation to put the 10 year recommendation out there.
Loose,
I don't "admire" the Tort law system. I, personally would prefer to have the Gummmint set standards of public safety, implement inspection systems and then prosecute the villians for their profit motivated crimes against the public. Works well in Europe. Their safety record is to be admired....or so I am told. Didn't someone here say that tires have a max age that can be sold? It's like school buses or buses operated by the gummint....they are always inspected to the hilt and way better maintained than the commercial stuff is....typically. Imagine finding a school bus that has been just taken out of service and it had defective rear brakes and none of the brakes had useful lining thickness or turnable drums and had 15 tear old tires and a badly smoking engine with a dead jug and electrical problems with the headlights. I know that bus just doesn't exist cause those school buses are required to be inspected and maintained to a high standard. Crummy Gummint interference. My problem is that some people want to abort TORT and leave us with nothing to protect ourselves against the BIG guys with the DEEP pockets to afford all that legal muscle to our further disadvantage. Every state in our great nation has implemented highway safety regulations and they had to do that because the industry was casting safety to the four winds and a lot of innocent lives with it.
Does a single person here want or advocate putting us and our loved ones totally at the mercy of an unregulated and invulnerable, from a legal standpoint, systems of manufactures and corporations that have already proved themselves unworthy of unverified trust? Stand up, be counted....there must be some. Really, there must be cause the deregulation scheme is full underway at all times and I am paranoid and know it. But that doesn't mean......!
Now i still love ya. just looking for answers to what seem to me to be easy questions.
John
Jim,
Thank you for your information. I find that "storage" info very useful and you seem to be putting your money where your mouth is. There are not enuf people that walk the talk.
If it was I that you feel twisted anything you said I will preemptively apologize. Didn't mean to do that....if I did. I value your opinion and take you seriously. It is BK that I.....ops, he might be listening. ::) :P
It IS really easy for posts to be misunderstood or intent to be hard to interpret when we're writing on these bulletin boards, that's for sure. ??? I still can't decide for sure if Loosenut was saying it was fine to drive on 20+yr old tires or not, no matter how many times I read his post, ha ha. ;)
I doubt anyone questions Jim's advice or comments on safety, as he has a lot of experience in those areas. :)
When it comes right down to it, for us, we just step back and look at the situation as it pertains to us:
We know that tires, even when properly inflated and carrying a light load, do blow out if they have a defect, are damaged, or are old. >:(
We know that a tire that is stored for a long time is actually more likely to give you problems than one that is run down the road at least periodically.
We know that it is in our best interest to purchase the "freshest" tires possible when replacing them.
We know that blowing a tire, at the very least, is inconvenient and at least slightly expensive, and we know that it can be, usually, damaging to the vehicle, and, sometimes, deadly to us or other drivers on the road. :'(
Having discussed it thoroughly, having experienced a front tire blow out, and looking at the "big picture", we have decided to replace our tires every 7 years. Of course, we take all precautions, such as keeping the pressure as per manufacturere's requirements, using a tire pressure monitoring system, etc.
If anyone disagrees, we are more than happy to offer our tires for sale when we remove them, as they will only be 7 years old and therefore valuable to at least some people on this board. I'm happy about that, as we sure could use some money to pay for the new ones. ;D Christy Hicks
For the record, robertglines1 wrote me a PM and said that he did have tire pressure monitors and that he had made sure the tires had the proper capacity. He also said that he had another failure (separation) with the same set of tires.
Please understand that I am not trying to say the manufacturers don't make mistakes. If you saw what goes into making a tire, you would be convinced that there would be a very high probability of premature failures. I have not been through a tire plant that makes the size tires we use (we did not make the big tires at Gates). I suspect that the process is pretty automated. However, even automation can get out of control.
The point I wanted to make is that a very high percentage of tire failures are due to under-inflation and we have the power to avoid that cause. The rest of the failures (up to 20%) are caused by road hazards/damage and defects. In the 20% cases, there is not much we can do. Having said that, we can be aware of damage we might have caused (curbing) and check the tire in question periodically. Defects tend to show up pretty early in the life of the tire. I wish I could explain why a suspect defect lasts 5-6 years before the failure occurs, but I know that it happens.
When you work in the rubber industry, you know about most of the ways that defects are generated and you do your best to remedy the situation. V-belts are pretty much hand built, or at least have a lot of labor content. A few years ago we had a rash of belt failures from separation. As we researched the problem, the trail (via code/build labels on the belt) began to point to a specific shift and plant location. As we investigated, we found a builder who had developed a skin problem and used a ton of protective cream on his hands. The cream got transferred to the layers in the belt as it was being built and caused the lamination. Lots of things can go wrong, but, fortunately, the numbers are generally pretty low.
We, the customer, can only do so much to avoid a tire failure, but good inspection, verification of load capacity, monitoring tire pressure, and replacing tires at a reasonable service life can put the odds in our favor.
BTW, if you have not viewed the Michelin Video on how to react to a tire failure, you MUST do that: http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/toolbox/videos-demos.jsp (http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/toolbox/videos-demos.jsp) You can view or download the video: RV - The Critical Factor. I obtained written permission to include that video in the CDs I hand out at my seminars.
Jim
QuoteI looked pretty silly, when, as he finally came to a hault, I vaulted out the door, landing in a perfect firefighter crouch, extinguisher aimed at the errant tire, only to find, to my chagrin, that we were not in any danger of immolation. Oh well, guess maybe next time I ought to actually ASK Larry if I should do anything, ha
Christy,
That was great forethought and procedure with the fire extinguisher. You did good. And if a fire had occurred, that action may have saved your bus.
For much of my life I, like you and most others, I didn't want to appear "melodramatic" or any of the score of terms people like to use in what they consider an overreaction. Usually because they would be embarrassed to do it themselves, even if they privately agreed with you. A blow to one's pride -- "What would people think of me?"
As a past first responder I learned to swallow my pride and blow off other's assumptions about me or what I was doing. I knew what I was doing and they didn't. The point I wanted to make is
your pride can get you killed.Practice emergency procedures from time-to-time. It is a well know fact that in times of extreme stress you will automatically revert to your training.
Chuck
Christy, I can identify with you. I have done that "firefighter" vault twice now. The first time was coming out of grapevine. We thought we had a serious problem with the tires (like a brake was dragging), and we were smoking on one tire. We stopped, and I did the vault out, and made sure that it had just heated up. That is all it was, and we let it cool, and went on, no problem.
The next time was a little more serious. Driving along in rural Canada (I think that it was Quebec), and the driver looked in the mirror, and saw smoke pouring out of the back of the engine. After the emergency stop, I vaulted out the door, and made it to the back of the bus, a lot faster then I thought I could. I yanked the back door open, and more white smoke billowed out. It turned out that it was steam. The coolant line that ran to the transmission cooler, had broken. Then that dumped all of the coolant (except for two gallons), right on the exhaust. We pulled over before the low coolant sensor even killed the engine. Fixed the line, refilled with water, and onto our merry way ;D.
About the tires...We replaced our steers with Michlens, because we didn't like the way our steers looked (just for comfort of mind, then we knew that our steers were good). Then we replaced the tags, out in Flagstaff, AZ because of necessity (we had a bulge in one, and they were 8 years old). We just replaced out drives because the tread was getting wore out (we just hit the legal limit, and I don't like having that little tread on the drives).
We keep all of our tires wet with spray on tire black, to keep the weather out. So far, so good ;D ;D ;D
God bless,
John