hi this moter is a cummins 8.3 94/95 model the moter got under water just got head off all 6 pistons
are stuck some still where 1/2 full of water HELP what can i pour in to cillinders to free up pistons
gasoline oil ? what also if cillenders are not pitted can i clean them ? thanks john ps bottom ends
looks good clean no rust ect head also looks good just some lite rust on valve heads
I would just fill them all with diesel and let it sit for a week or so, keeping the cylinders full of oil. The a six foot cheater bar on the crank and try to turn it. If it moves at all, go a 1/4" at a time in both directions, keeping it oil up.
If they don't move at all after soaking for a week, drop the crank and drive the pistons out one at a time.
I have no real experience with the Cummins engine, I did it on an old Oliver tractor years ago, but it ran fine for a long time after.
hi how do i fill with diesel but then top off with oil john
John, I don't have any experience based suggestions on freeing them up. But when you do get them out, be sure to check the connecting rods and piston structures carefully for any kind of damage (bends, fine cracks, lines suggesting a crack starting, etc). As I recall, it was driven into the lake (motor running) and efforts were made to start it. And it is likely more efforts were made before you got it. With water in the cylinders, it is a fair bet hydro lock occurred.
If it were me and budget permitted, I think I would assume damage was done even if I couldn't see it. I don't know how the Cummins is built inside, but either new sleeves/pistons/rings/rods/bearings or bore out the cylinder to the next oversize and put in oversize pistons/rings and new rods/bearings.
hi mike it was not running when it went in lake jack and i tryed to start it
but would not move right now the rings are froze and i need to loosen
them first to remove the pistons and rods the crank and lower end look
like new this moter had only 60.000 miles thanks john
I did this once, with a car engine. I used penetrating oil, soaked for a few weeks, head off, hammered on pistons with a big wooden block and a 2 lb hammer. It eventually freed up. Rings rust to the bores. These days I'd do a complete rebuild, but back then I had to borrow the hammer...
Brian
Quote from: crown on September 22, 2009, 07:37:33 AM
hi how do i fill with diesel but then top off with oil john
I'm sorry, I was using diesel and oil meaning the same thing. Just diesel or the penetrating oil of your choice. Doesn't matter much what you use, just keep it wet while you are working on it.
The Cummins 8.3 is a wet cylinder liner engine. Once you have the cylinder head off, there will be nothing but the O-ring seals on the liners holding them in. Hence, if you start hammering on them, or trying to turn them against them being froze up, you risk damaging the block where the liners seat. Suggestion- pull the pan, take off all the piston connecting rod caps and individually pull as a unit each cylinder kit out of the block (cylinder liner, piston and connecting rod as one). Once on the work bench, you can try hammering on them to loosen them up. If it were me, I'd just chuck all 6 of the cylinder kits and buy new ones. It will ultimately be the cheapest in the long run. Then you'll not ruin the block or crank with turning it with a big breaker bar against the frozen pistons. Good Luck, TomC
hi tom how do i remove do i just pull them out the bottom or push them out the top
do i need special tools to remove ? what do i have to be carefull with thanks john
John- mind you, I haven't done this myself, but when you pull the connecting rod cap off, with the cylinder head off, you should be able to tap up the cylinder liner and pop it out. All that is holding it in is a couple of O rings. Any questions above this, you should get hold of your Cummins dealer-or any others hear done this? Good Luck, TomC
I've never done a Cummins but when we did our 466s we took the head off and then rolled the engine to push the liners out. If he can't roll the engine then he can't do that which is going to complicate getting it apart because some of the holes aren't going to have the rods lined up for a straight push. If it was me I'd still try rolling it with the head off. Actually, if it was me, I'd be looking for another engine but that's another thread.
I don't know about this engine, but back in the 80's Cummins went to a press fit liner. I doubt this engine is any different. If so you will need a liner puller or a bottle jack to remove the liners, they won't come out easy.
Chances are its just rust seized, but if it has been spun while hydro locked its real easy to bend a rod. They should be checked for straight if it was spun against the water.
I think its a waste of time to try and save the rings. I'd just beat the pistons out with some wood, inspect the parts, clean up the bores and install new rings. I doubt the pistons are real stuck, if they are, you might destroy the ring lands, so some oil of some kind would be benificial.
Usually if a block has been underwater it would be a good practice to pull it all the way down and tank the block to be sure all the oil passages are open. There are other ways you can check some of this, brushes, air, etc.
When the bearing caps come off if there is water present, I would at least use a brush on all the crank oil holes and what I could reach on the block. If the crank is rusty your gonna need to have it polished or polish it yourself. There is a fair chance the crank is stuck and not the pistons, it could be either way or both.
If you really need to pull the liners and they are press fit, its not real hard to make your own liner puller. You need to be carefull with a jack pushing a press fit back in, too much and you can break the block.
What is most likley stoping the crank from turning is the pistons that are wanting to go down in the cyl. while trying to bar the engine over. The ones that want to go up will come out of the block with the liners. Disconnect the ones that will be going down and tap them out. put some fuel hose on the rod bolts so that you don't damage the crank.when those piston liner sets are out the other ones will come out as you bar the engine over. AS far as freeing them up I would put the whole assy. in diesel fuel for a few days and then try tapping them out. Good luck. Gerry
update thanks for all the imfo this is what i known when we drained the oil clean clear fresh water came out first
then black oil the water pushed the oil up in the block / crank ect from the underside pan off looking up there
is zero rust on linners crank rods rod bolts ect all clean and well oiled what i have done for now is i filled the
clinders with diesel then with a scoth brite pad & 400 sandpaper i cleaned up the clinders and then put
clean diesel back in and am going to let it sit till next week the head is also very clean but has lite rust on
the valves thanks john any more help you can give me post it thanks still got a long way to go
Hello , If you don't have any success try this........KROIL 'the oil that kreeps' This stuff is great I have no affiliation but it works well in this tyre of scenario. Good luck Let us hear back on your situation Thanks ,GFC
The pistons and sleeves are trashed after rusting in place. You may wish to try some heat on the piston tops with a rosebud and cycle the process a few times. The pistons will expand and shrink and will probably about fall out after a few cycles.
I'd remove the crank, get a big drift and drive the pistons out with a sledge. That works every time. If that brings the liners out...all the better. DON'T drift on the rods...get down beside the wrist pins and bang on the pistons. This process will destroy the pistons, but they are damaged already.
Even if you get it free'ed up, the liners, rings, and pistons are pitted from dissimilar metal water damage. At best, even if free'd up without major demolition, the engine would consume huge amounts of oil. At worst, it'll grenade after a few miles at highway speeds. All piston surfaces that had steel and water mixed have pitted. No sealing at the ring lands are (likely) possible now. And the piston skirts are undersized from corrosion. No good comes from this sort of pickling.
If this engine sat thru a winter in freezing conditions and out of the lake, there may be damage that you cannot see...like cracks in the block or head. Or even cracked liners (sleeves) from water in the combustion chamber.
As has been described already, if you plan on using this engine on the highway, the liners, pistons, and rings, at a minimum, should be replaced. You might salvage the bearing shells if they plastigage out and are not damaged from attempts to bar over the engine. IF the engine really is a '60K' mileage engine...check the bearing clearances while you're in there.
The rods can be checked without too much expense. Cranks, cams, and blocks can be serviced and reused.
The valves may be stuck in the guides. The head (s) should be disassembled and serviced before using.
Isn't Boogiethecat pondering repowering? He may have a 220 Cummins for a Crown for sale? I may be confused too...?
Another thought is that if you're replacing a running engine, you might take the best parts from both?
If you just want to hear it run, you may be successful with freeing it up and cranking. But if you want the engine to be useful, replace everything that's rusted or pitted (or gauled, or outside service limits) and you'll live happily ever after.
Good luck, JR
A big recomendation for Kroil oil. I spent a lot of time in power generating stations, when it was time to dismantle the turbine (8 and 10" diameter bolts) which had cycled from ambient to 1000 deg f sometimes every 24 hours for several years. The only penetrent they would use was Kroil and it works.
John
update first this was a fl. coach so no cold weather yes it is a 60.000 moter yesterday i went to cummins
and to a engine machine shop the machine shop is going to check & repair the head was told looks very good
at most vavle guides and set the vavles cummins is going to rebuild the turbo they also recomended a mecannic
that they use when they get to busy he will work at my home if the rings free up cummins will check my pistons
and linners they charge $ 12 each but if i am buying parts from them they will wave this fee thats all for now
will keep you posted thanks again for all the help john
I new a gentleman that lived in Charleston/Coos Bay ,Or. He was an old salt and one hell of a guy. He worked mainly with the fishing boats and he rebuilt transmissions for boats from all over the entire west coast. Really antique and diagnosed "unrepairable" stuff was his speciality. Bill Chard is probably close to his last name and he was in the book. A man with an incredible life achievement and I suspect he was only semi literate but I don't know that. What I learned from Bill was that I could probably have gotten satisfactory results by investing one tenth of the time and money in every project I had ever done in my life. I like the book and I try to do everything "better" than what is absolutely required. At least that is my opinion of me.
Don't missunderstand, Bill was a competent and very experienced mechanic and machinist and he could do any job to the extent that the customer wanted. Those fishermen are a insolvent group and they "needed" the lowest possible price that they could get. Bill was the only one that could accommodate them. I once saw him baring an engine free that had seized cylinders and rust up the bore. He had oiled it and let it sit for the required week. What else he did or what oil he used I have not a clue. He patiently worked that crank back and forth after rapping the pistons with a piece of 4X4 and a hand sledge. He finally got it to turn a complete revolution. He started wiping the bores clean(?) after every pass. I watched this operation over several days and finally asked my question. Bill, why are you taking such pains to get the pistons out in one piece if you are going to have to throw them away anyway? Bill said "why would I throw anything away?" and he was serious. He later told me that the old fisherman that brought it in was penniless and lived on his boat but had family in town. He put that engine together after freeing everything and told me it might run for a long time but it might also crap out on the way out of the harbor. I asked how "that old fisherman made out with that rusted engine?' and Bill said it was still running after 8 months and the old guy had long ago paid off his tab with Bill had had a really good season. I guess it has something to do with luck but I know it has more to do with that Kenny Rogers song..You got to know when to hold'em and ya gotta k.....
Bill is one of the most memorable characters in my life. He once told me he was thinking of retiring and my council was "you are one of those guys that has worked so hard for so long that you would drop dead a week after you quit". He nodded his agreement, at the time. I recently ran into him, after 10 years, at an auction. I looked him in the eye and said I am glad and a little surprised that you are still kicking. He remembered my advice cause he said "yes I am and its because I never quit or retired". I never saw a 2 stroke in his shop but he did rebuild GMC blowers for people in San Diego and elsewhere further south for less than anybody else and he used cores that other shops had rejected. I don't doubt that Southern Or. Diesel knows of him.
I am only guessing here, but I think I know what Bill would advise. Put the head back on to retain the liners and bar it over till it was free. I don't thin Scotch brite is a good idea cause it has ceramic abrasive in it and that stuff can't be gotten rid of by wiping. After you get it turning, take the head back off and wipe it all down with D and reassemble. It might go another "season". And when you rebuild you will be making the same investment as you might right now. AND you would not have the tale to tell of that engin.........
It would be balanced and blueprinted if it were mine and I had the money and yes, I have done dumber things. I guess anybody could do it my way.
good luck and I think others have given excellent advice.
John
John