As some you may remember, my bus came to me with a fresh brake job. Obviously the wheels were off and on as a result. Today my job was to adjust my speedometer sensor, behind the left front wheel. So I take this as an opportunity to try out my 20 ton jack, my new torque multiplier, and pull the left front wheel to have a look at the brake job.
The nuts are left hand, get that figured out instantly, and man they are tight. i'm using a three foot bar along with my 6.5:1 torque multiplier, and some of these nuts are taking 1,000 ft lbs or more to break loose. they've only been on four months, they aren't corroded on. Get five loose, the sixth one is a bear. I'm putting at least 350 ft lbs into the torque multiplier, that's like 2000 ft lbs at the nut, and what breaks loose is the 3/4" drive of the torque multiplier, sheared right off. so now I'm out $350 for a brand new torque multiplier that undid a lifetime total of five nuts, I have to make an appointment at truck shop, take the bus in, have them undo all the wheel nuts on the bus, inspect all of the studs for stretching, and put on all new nuts at the very least. What a crock.
very very upset.
Brian
Another Tire Monkey with a 1" impact wrench way over torqued to say the least. >:(
jlv
Make sure any shop does not use an impact wrench to tighten the lugs particularly the left hand studs. Most (maybe all) impact wrenches have more torque in reverse to break free stubborn nuts/bolts.
I'm not aware that any 3/4 inch tools are made to do tire work. The standard of the industry is 1 inch as far as I know. I'm concerned you will end up with loose wheels if you deviate too far from the usual tools used in the industry.
My money says you won't find anything wrong with the wheel studs or the wheel nuts. Trying to get commercial equipment to conform to lesser standards and back yard remedies with inferior tools is gonna get someone hurt sooner or later.
I have heard some go so far as to say they are confident with their 1/2 inch guns doing 1 inch steer studs. Certainly that 1/2 inch gun won't damage any wheel hardware, but I'm gonna give you guys doing that a yellow stripe or something to put on your rear bumper so I don't get too close to you on the highway.
Buses ain't cars. I have been around heavy equipment all my life and if you want the wheels to stay on, the standard of the industry is a 1 inch tire gun and they pull the studs tight and leave them tight for a good reason.
If you gotta play this game, at least do your walk around inspections for missing hardware every 2 hours, you owe the rest of us that much.
The equipment that broke was rated to 1200 ft lbs. How much heavier duty does it need to be, when the correct torque on a wheel nut is under half that? I was putting over 2,000 ft lbs through it when it broke. It had every right to break at almost twice it's rated throughput. I'm not mad at it, I'm mad at the guy who put the nuts on at what has to be more than a little in excess of the specified torque level. I know that it takes a lot more torque to break something loose than what it was installed at, so I'm not implying that these were done up to 2,000 ft lbs. I also know that an impact wrench is better for breaking stuck fasteners loose than the smooth force applied by a torque multiplier.
I have no idea where you got the idea to talk about the folly of using 1/2 impact wrenchs on bus wheel nuts from my post. The inference that I am using back-yard hack mechanics and inferior tools is actually kind of insulting. My background includes building and maintaining racing cars at a professional level, I understand torque and fastener technology very well indeed. Hammering on a wheel lug with a 1" air gun and pulling them "tight and leave them tight" is about what happened to me, and I'm obviously going to pay the price for having a guy who's been around heavy equipment all his life have at the wheels on my bus.
BTW, I hope you're right and I don't have to replace the studs. But putting new lugs and inner nuts on is cheap and easy, and good to do.
Brian
Brian,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Impacts are the easy way to take those babies off. When we were breaking our nuts loose, we ended up with a ten foot breaker bar on a T handled 1" Snap on wrench. It finally broke (and I was glad that it was only one). It was also nice that we were replacing every stud on the bus too, at that point.
NJT, I don't agree with you on this one. I would rather somebody use a 1/4" cordless impact to put my tires on, and have them torqued properly, then to have them rammed on with a 1" gun. Personally I use a 1/2" IR thundergun. It can put 500 on (roughly I believe), and 550 to 600 reverse. I believe that the key to installing the lugs, is making sure that they were properly torqued. I think that was probably Brian's problem. Somebody saw fit to ram his on lugs with a big gun. Net effect? Probably damaged threads/studs, and costing him tools and time and money.
Do it your way, but I will always torque mine, and I won't let anybody hammer them on with a 1" gun. Industry standard is worth something, however torquing them is even better.
So anyways, NJT, you can send me your yellow stripe sticker ;D. I would rather that my tires be properly torqued, as opposed to rammed on with a 1" gun, and the studs break and lose a tire. It was right around a year ago that a guy I know was killed by a tire that came off of a truck. The studs had broken (1" industry standard gun, no doubt), and the tire broke off, jumped the concrete divider, split the Honda accord in half, killed one brother instantly, seriously injured his sister (severe head trauma, eyesite loss, etc,) and also injured the other brother in the car. All that to say, no 1" guns ramming lugs onto the bus (the only exception is if it is done very carefully and slowly). And everything will be torqued. YMMV
God bless,
John
Brian,
I think you are justified to be a little miffed. Ride it out tho, my friend....it all works out good in the end.
I am lost to understand why a 1/2 inch wrench isn't a good choice to tighten any nut to any torque that is within it's operating spec. There are 1/2 inch wrenches that go up to 900 lbs and I think that is enuf. Most only go to 4-500 and that is sure enuf to spin them down so you can hand tighten them that 1/4 turn to ther correct torque. Lets see, my 270 pounds on a 4 foot bar would add up to 1085 if I leaned on the bar and probably 1400 if I bounced. I think I could get this done without a 1 inch gun.
The 1 inch gun is on my list and i will have one when they next go on sale at HF. I think they are needed to break loose over torqued nuts. That carelessness is inexcusable in a professional and in the auto industry there have been so many multi million dollar suits awarded bu 12 jerks just like you and me that some think we need to stop at all costs to ourselves that all the big chains hand tighten every single nut with a torque wrench. I am certain I have benefited from their current level of care cause I have had more than a few shops strip or break lug nuts let alone stretch some. That is Tort law working for you and me....we don't have the Gummint looking over the shops practice like they have in Europe where they DO NOT have tort law but pay for every cripple and orphan with tax dollars. Big difference in how they do business over there. ???
Get a new multiplier so you can tighten your own nuts to the called for torque. Complain to the mfr about the wrench and see if they will comp you one and share the brand name if they do. ;D
John316,
You should have seen the Prevost that took a trailer tire through the windshield. There were three people riding in the front and none received anything worse than small glass cuts. A real mystery!
Sorry about your friend. This stuff happens all to often. I think only OSHA can resolve this in our system. You can't legislate something so far down in the minutia as nut torque unless you are trying to relieve a banker of any culpability. That they can do and have done.
John
Brian,
How are you going to put new inner nuts on a steer hub? Are you running duals on your steer axle?
If someone came out to work on my race cars with a torque multiplier, that would probably be OK, but I would wonder about it. Hell, I own real torque wrenches for that, just like I own real tools to do tire work.
Never in my life have I seen any tire man come out of a tire shop with a 3/4 inch torque multiplier to do my truck or bus tires. For more than 45 years I have been around the industry and 1 inch tire guns have gotten the job done. Now I have some folks who are new to the truck and bus world saying 42 years of safe tire principals are all wrong. A guy buys a hokey tool and it breaks and everything that has served public safety all of my life is wrong.
Sure you can pull a wheel down with less torque, but if you run alot of rough roads or go up into the cold country where the roads frost heave and you really flex and stress the wheels and wheel hardware, if the wheels are loose they work their way off.
If you have ever done tires you know the gun is heavy. A "tire monkey" as you folks call them has to hold the gun while he tightens the lugs and believe me there is no reason to want to over tighten any lugs because you have to hold the gun that much longer. Chances are this "tire monkey" is a professional who did his job properly. This day and age, with high unemployment there is no reason to keep someone around who doesn't have good work habits or purposely destroys equipment and thats what your accusation amounts too.
John 3, I question your senario of a wheel breaking off a semi from being over tightened. Great story, but stud pilot duals would be likely to break off and would stay togather. If only one came off, it was loose, the outers are just to big to break. Inners, yes they are only 5/8 vrs 1 inch but you lose both of them togather, not one. Hub pilot wheels don't stress hardware... In my 45 years in the industry, I have never had a wheel leave a vehicle for any reason, (thank God), and that is alot of wheels installed with a 1 inch tire gun. Many years ago one of my competitors lost a set of duals with a new set of studs. State Patrol took the wheels and studs for study and came back and said the new studs were defective, the Rockwell Standard was too soft. They went after the whole supply of those and took them off the market.
I have never seen a reliable spec for stud torque dry, so torque of dry studs is guess work at best. We don't do head bolts dry. I question any torque accuracy if the threads are dry and think the only safe way to know is to use the industry standard tool. I think dry studs are meant/designed to be torqued with a 1 inch impact gun. Problem is it takes one to remove dry studs and nuts as well. If you want to properly wrench heavy equipment, step up and buy the proper tools.
Virtually every wheel on the road all over the world is serviced with a 1 inch tire gun. I have not ever heard a complaint until people without 1 inch tire guns started servicing those wheels. All of a sudden the transportation industry as well as the entire tire industry is wrong and we are going to improve upon it with some hand tools from China... OOPS they broke... Stupid tire man!!!
Guys, I don't want any enemy's and I don't want anyone to dislike me. I know I sound harsh but I am speaking from many years of experience and wheels are an extreme safety issue on the highways. I have issues changing things that are not broken and slamming what I feel are alot of professional tire guys I have learned to respect, that make their living everyday doing their best. Gary, my fleet tire man at the local Schuab has been doing truck tires for a living for over 30 years. I am certain Brian would have had exactly the same experience with his tools and a tire that Gary had installed.
My truck, trailer and bus wheels are all installed Ingersol Rand 1 inch Tire Gun tight, I always do a walk around every 2 hours and visually inspect each wheel for missing or loose hardware as well as flat duals. Its the law... If you will do the inspections, your wheels won't have a chance to come off your vehicle, no matter how you install them.
Kinda interesting post, NJT.
I am not saying that everybody is wrong. There is industry standard, that usually works, and there is a better approach. Like I said, I will always torque mine (even if I run it on with a 1/4" impact, but again mine is .5"). I think that it is bad practice to ram the lugs on, simply because it puts so much stress on the stud. In our bus, we carry people (not a charter, but again, we aren't just freight). When you carry people, and not just freight, you should do things differently, and better.
So you do whatever (you can still send me your sticker ;D), but I will torque my wheels to the proper specs, and I won't risk people live by ramming them on with a 1" gun, as hard as I can.
Me and my half inch, and a torque stick will do for us ;D.
BTW, I would have to check the HP report again, but I do think that they said it was broken studs. That is why I will do it right (and torque them properly). I don't want to risk others lives.
God bless,
John
Well guys, two different perspectives here, and both have merit.
Hope nobody is using the ignore button yet!
DaveG,
Nope, I am not using the ignore button here ;D.
Question for you, though. You have are in the trucking industry. Which do you think is better? Ramming them on with a 1" gun, or taking it real slow and easy with a 1/2" gun (or the 1" really slow), and then torquing it. My guess is that it is easier to ram them on, and not have to torque, and that is why most "industry standard" shops do that.
What do you think?
God bless,
John
Oh, and using a 1" tire gun does not mean you hammer on it until it stops turning. Usually after the nut stops turning, let the gun hammer 3 or 4 times and that is good. Just to clear that up...clear, right?
The nice thing about hub pilot is the studs/nuts get lubed and are torqued wet (not dry like the stud pilot).
Quote from: John316 on September 01, 2009, 04:08:26 PM
DaveG,
Nope, I am not using the ignore button here ;D.
Question for you, though. You have are in the trucking industry. Which do you think is better? Ramming them on with a 1" gun, or taking it real slow and easy with a 1/2" gun (or the 1" really slow), and then torquing it. My guess is that it is easier to ram them on, and not have to torque, and that is why most "industry standard" shops do that.
What do you think?
God bless,
John
I do not know of any tire shop I've used in 30+ years that torques stud pilot lugs/nuts
I had very similar posts to my hub/stud failure from people who are not or must not be very knowledgeable when it comes to the correct procedure for changing car,van,truck bus wheels.
There is only and I mean only one way to be sure the correct pressure placed on the nut to hold the wheel on. Some people do not read the manufacturers recommended torque tables. But if they would it clearly states a minimum and maximum ft Ib amount that can NOT and I mean NOT be applied correctly using a 1/4"to 2" impact.
The only way you can be sure the pressure is within specs is to use a calibrated torque wrench. This can be a 1/2" 3/4" 1" as long as it is used correctly.
Brian you were very lucky to find out when you did that some uninformed person used a 1" air gun for the job the torque wrench should have been used for.
John
John 316
To answer your question a bit more directly, I think it might be difficult to get an accurate torque with the dry fasteners. Obviously the correct torque value is the goal, and any way you achieve that is probably okay, but again I think that the best way to install stud pilot wheel attaching hardware is with the 1" gun, capable of 1400 ft lbs, and that said the user of said tool needs to be a bit savvy, not just ram it down until..until when? Anyway, like I said in a previous post, there are no tire shops/dealers etc that I am aware of that torque stud pilot hardware.
My favorite is the hub pilot type...for many reasons but one of which is that the wheel hardware (stud-2 drops and nut-between the nut and captive washer-2 drops) get lubricated and torqued. My shop used a 600 ft lb torque wrench for about 5 years, and a couple of years ago went to a torque stick. I would not bother changing a stud pilot vehicle over to hub pilot, but if all things were the same, I'd pick the hub pilot.
John4104, I agree. A calibrated torque wrench is the way to go. Pricey though.
Dave, makes sense. Kinda what I figured.
God bless,
John
Gentleman, A lot of times in using a cheater pipe in my previous life, all kinds of weird things happened. For one thing, it could have sheared because of uneven torques being applied through the cheater pipe. Crap happens and I'll bet you won't get any credit towards a new one unless the directions say you can use a cheater pipe, but I doubt it.
Disclaimer: I have never changed a tire/wheel on a bus, so I'm only offering my opinion on what could have happened.
Now, when I have to do that I will use the proper tools to do the job and do it properly, otherwise I'm calling Coach Net and have someone do it for me with me watching every move they make and get the understanding up front how it's done. ;)
A good thread and discussion, keep it nice guys, a lot of experience here that is very beneficial....Right On! ;D
JMHO,
Paul
Well not going to say anyone is wrong here. But will tell you how I do it. I first Use my 1' impact to take them off. To install I use my 3/4" impact to snug them up. Then I get my torque wrench out and tighten to 500 foot pounds. Then I take my 3/4" impact and hit them again.
I have had my 1' hammering away and had to beat on the socket with my 2 lb sledge at the same time to brake wheel nuts with 175 lbs of air.
How I do it
John
John,
I picked up a 600Lb torque wrench last week for $69.00 S now I have the torque multiplier (which I was sure to calibrate off a 1200 Ib snap on torque wrench) and my 5 ft long 600Lb Chicargo.
I now also take my time and use a jack to hold the multiply er or Chicago in place.
John
PS Paul the coach net boys will use the 1" truck tool and over torque your studs.
air impacts put thos nuts on pretty tight since they use 180 lbs of air pressure. I tried taking them off with a air gun 1" size and no could do. I bought a makits 1" electric impact wrench and takes off the ones they put on with their 180 lbs of pressure. Since we have ac power in the rigs it is good to carry on the road too in case off a flat. Jerry
Jerry, very interesting. Had no clue (not a rare thing) that Makita made a 1" gun.
Thanks
Don 4107
Quote from: Jriddle on September 01, 2009, 05:28:59 PM
Well not going to say anyone is wrong here. But will tell you how I do it. I first Use my 1' impact to take them off. To install I use my 3/4" impact to snug them up. Then I get my torque wrench out and tighten to 500 foot pounds. Then I take my 3/4" impact and hit them again.
I have had my 1' hammering away and had to beat on the socket with my 2 lb sledge at the same time to brake wheel nuts with 175 lbs of air.
How I do it
John
Hey boys, better pay attention here and file this one away in your memory banks, 'cause it is a nugget....stubborn lugs sometimes won't budge with a 1" impact, so take a BFH or other type/size hammer and while hammering away with the impact gun also whack the socket with your favorite
BFH or other. This trick has not failed me in 31 years. Thanks for the reminder.
It isn't hard for me to figure that a lubed nut will torque down easier and you can get a more precise poundage. I have wondered about the "CAUTION: Do not lubricate nuts or studs" in my maint procedures book. I have run these things down 75 times maybe. It is a chore and I have many times gotten my hands stung by the bar "creaking and crunching" down after it gets tight. Real pain, especially if you forgot to wear gloves.
Last week I installed all my brand new tires on the Winnie. Nuts again. This time I took the nuts in to the wire wheel and brushed all the mating surfaces to bright and I also did the threads on the inner sleeve stud/nut. I also went at the wheel studs with gusto. The darn things went on and tightened like they had been greased. I always clean up my fasteners before I reassemble. Have not even a hunch why I never did it for wheel nuts. Of course I over torqued it....again. Losing a nut just scares the bejesus out of me since I saw a friend unscrew a lug nut from the front wheel of a MCI 9 while we were waiting to board the bus to be driven down from the radar site. Thousand foot drop offs and no guard rails or berm and the bus was loosing a wheel. The driver was badly shaken when he saw what my buddy had in his hand. He asked him "where did you get that?". I told him "you won't have any trouble spotting it Sleuth. It goes on the empty/bare stud. Hope you have a lug wrench that fits it." He was so put off he never spoke to us for a month. "just lean on that 1 incher, huh?" #$@#&*(*)
Use the frigging torque wrench. Maybe not drink as much while you are working on crap that others are using in a life threatening application. How could they let that happen. At Americas tire store the supervisor goes over every lug nut with a torque wrench AFTER the tech has already done so. Wouldn't you think a bus tire would be treated in mandatory "safety" procedure? Where is that Tort Lawyer? >:( I'll straighten this out. :o Just kidding. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't have a torque wrench that goes to 300 pounds so go ahead and laugh at me.
John
Here in Minneapolis there is a major commercial tire shop called Royal Tire. I have been told they ONLY use torque wrenches on all their tires to get the final torque down. They have been doing this since 2000. So, yes, big tire companies are using torque wrenches now. I personally follow the installation instructions in my bus manual for proper lugnut installation. It is explicitly stated in the manual to torque the nuts with a torque wrench to 450 ft/lbs.
While I was @ Setra North America Headquarters last week I was pleasantly surprised to see a tech torquing the wheels that he'd just put back on a bus! I even made it a point to tell the shop foreman I was impressed and he said "it's the only way we do it here!" FWIW ;D BK ;D
BrianD,
That is great to hear. We will keep them in mind if we ever need something while we are in that area. It used to be (sometimes still is) rare to find a shop that does things right.
BK, It is nice that a company like Setra is doing things right, and not taking short cuts. Maybe they build their buses with the same mentality (what do you think ;D ;D ;D).
God bless,
John
About 10 years ago just a few months after i bought our used jeep we had a flat tire. It took me 40 minutes to bust loose the nuts and i almost gave up a couple of times. Good thing we weren't way up in the woods. Since then i tighten my wheels myself. I asked a tire shop what they torqued them to and it seemed to me he said they torque all wheels to something like 150 or 200 lbs. In my book for the jeep it says 75 lbs.!! If they won't hand torque they don't get my business!!!! On the bus i have a torque wrench and a 12:1 multiplier. I got it after i could not remove the back wheels with anything that i owned, or my neighbor, who had a bus, owned. I also bought an Ingersoll Rand 1/2" impact wrench (2135 TI ) that has a torque range of 50-600 lbs. and max torque of 625 forward and 700 reverse. 1250 blows per min., weighs just under 4 lbs. , 5.0 cfm average air consumption and at load is 24cfm. It says that it will loosen a nut tightened to 1000lbs in 6 seconds. Has 4 position switch so you can select the torque range you want. I have a small compressor so i can only take off about 3 nuts before i have to wait a minute or so for pressure to build. I can put my nuts back on at a lower pressure and then hand tighten with the torque wrench and the 12:1. My wheels need to be between 450-500lbs so i set it for 480. 1968 5A ;D
Once again,
Dry torque is more repeatable than oiled (assuming clean threads)
Different oils have different 'slickness'.
Over tightening the lug nuts leads to:
- reduced rim thickness under the nut
- stretched studs
- pulled threads in the nut
- warped flanges
- etc
All of which leads to reduced strength of the assembly & creates needless replacement of parts.
If a nut is properly torqued to specs - which includes a re-torque at 50 miles, subsequent inspections will verify they are still tight.
Loose nuts are a result of improper installation or defective parts.
As far as torque accuracy, it is simple physics -- Force multiplied by the distance from the pivot (nut).
If you can do the math, you can check the calibration of your 'clicker' torque wrench at home.
- clamp a bolt in a vise,
- stand on a bathroom scale,
- push down on your horizontal torque wrench,
- note the bathroom scale reading when the torque wrench 'clicks'
- work the math to see how accurate it is.
You can also experiment with different ways of holding the wrench & see how that effects the accuracy.
The manufacturers have engineers looking at these things & generating specifications based on understanding ALL of the forces involved & backed up with detailed testing. They have documentation that details every aspect of the tests & are repeatable.
Some individuals will tell you to ignore the manufacturer's specs (because they let the wheels fall off, etc) & do it their way because it has worked for them for years. These individuals have no documentation of how the specs were/ were not followed.
So, who you gonna believe, the manufacturer or someone with good intentions?
It may be your equipment, but if it is operated on a public road, it may be my life you are gambling with. . . .
Well there ain't no state law or OSHA reg on the subject so JUST GUESS WHERE THEIR MOTIVATION COMES FROM??? I meant to yell and get red in the face. That is an example of "our" system working. Tort law. I used to have cocktails with a Tort Law attorneys clique once or twice a week. You should hear the stories from that side. It isn't long till your conservative blood boils and you hear yourself saying "we gotta do something about those conscienceless SOBs".
I had a lady friend take her Mazda in for new tires. She went to the shop I suggested and bought the tires I suggested. On the way home and on the freeway at 70 MPH, her right rear wheel fell off. It ground down the brake drum and some other stuff, as you might imagine. A good Samaritan put her wheel back on after retrieving it from a quarter mile down the road. She drove back to the shop and she said they laughed at her when she asked that they look at her car and check it for damage. The manager asked "what is the point?". That afternoon I visited the shop after hearing the story. After the manager confirmed that he would do "nothing" I went straight to slow burn. I got in his face and told him that he would repair her car in one hour after she arrived the following morning before going to work OR he would have her delivered a rental car and he could do the work in a couple days. I told him to pick one of those options or I would make my business to see that she OWNED that franchise and he would work many years to pay his fair share of the judgement. His face went from smirk to red to purple and then to white as I explained. He said "I need to make a call" and went into his office. He returned a few min later with an even whiter face and asked "what address should we have the rental car delivered to" and can she drive the car to the Mazda dealers?" I said No No NO! Have a tow truck pick up the Mazda at the same address. He nodded. All went well and I assured my friend that they just needed to fully understand Tort law to see the need to do the right thing. This is not a story about ME. My conservative heart will always defend your right to get satisfaction and force fair dealings if it comes to that. You would not believe the stories....you just wouldn't. I was suspect myself and researched a couple til I started giving them credibility. No wonder those juries did what they did and awarded that much. God bless them.
This is about bus safety and your options...as I see them.
Thanks,
John
Kyle,
Well said! Well said, indeed!
Thank you,
John
JohnEd,
Well said! I agree with you. It just isn't worth it to me, to save somebody a couple of minutes (or me), and not torque. I understand that "industry standard" might say it is okay to ram them on with a 1" gun. Fine, if they want to and accept the liability. I won't. I will do things right! We have an excellent reputation in town for doing things right. I am certainly going to do things right when it endangers other.
God bless,
John
As always, we'll "Do It Our Way"! Sound familiar anyone! ;)
Some say to lube, have done it for years, others say to run the nuts on dry, have done it for years, some say to use an impact, have done it for years and no problems, and on and on.
I have read some articles on industry standards, and it appears not many people do it that way. And the guy with the heavy 1" impact is trying to install/slam 18 wheels/tires on a big rig, fast. Cause that's what the boss wants, cuts down on labor, equals profit for them. I must admit, I haven't seen any wheels rolling down the road that wasn't attached, see lots of gators though!
BK's way seem to not be the norm! ;D
My dos centavos,
Paul
Somewhere in my internet travels, I had found a truck tire shop that I can no longer find. They basically said that with a 1" impact if you let it hammer for 3-5 seconds, the toque will be about right. The problem comes when you hear them hammering for 20-30 seconds.
As noted in my thread about MCI lug nut sizes, I replaced all of the lug nuts on my bus today. I used a Blue Point 1 inch air gun at 140 psi nominal, on a 3/8" 75 foot air line, and by coincidence hammered a couple of nuts about 6 times, maybe 3 seconds (I was trying to just seat them, but I put a couple on harder to seat the wheel). They were within 50 pounds of correct torque, which I was setting at 450 ft lbs with a Blue Point torque wrench. Maybe there is something to this theory after all. I am, as a result of this little exercise, going to do some research into the science behind the torque required to remove a wheel nut. I think there is more to this than meets the eye. I think the effect of the ball taper of the nut has a far more significant effect on the torque required to undo a nut that I first gave it credit for.
brian
FWIW, regarding torque of air tools, I recently sent my IR 261 3/4" impact in for repairs, and the shop in SoCal called to tell me that is reached 1,300 ft lbs in BOTH directions.
From GM coaches to MCI designed and owned most of the time by Greyhound. With there billion plus miles of experience. There maintenance manuals say toque the wheel nuts so I will follow there experience and Toque mine.
John
We all do it it different but I don't buy into the dry torque is better than a wet torque.I love to build the 8v92 engines and even the rod bolts to the piston calls for a lube on the 2 bolts.
The reason I use a little never sezie on my lug nuts is because if you guys watch your aluminum wheels when the nuts are dry and torqued it will always have shavings roll up you can see and is the biggest failure of wheels because the holes cut deeper with each change and then they crack.
I do check my wheels before every trip and never found one lug nut loose in 20+ years and another thing I have never replaced a stud except when going from steel to aluminum wheels.
I will keep doing it till someone can prove that it doesn't work.
I have a 1in I/R gun set on 480# with a 1/2 inch air supply @120 # supply 3 hammers you have 480# according to my 800# Proto torque wrench
good luck
Thanks for the post, Clifford. I knew that you would have good, sound advice. I also have been using sneeze on our studs.
Thanks again.
God bless,
John
Clifford,
If never size by giving a little lubrication helps stop the nut from peeling the aluminum away, I am for using it.
John
I must admit, I haven't seen any wheels rolling down the road that wasn't attached, see lots of gators though!
Paul, there are lots of wheels that do come off each year. I am sure that it is not because they used lube or didn't use lube. The reason is because they didn't put them on the way they should be and also didn't check them to make sure they stayed on.
Where I lived in Mooresville NC, there was a prison guard killed with a wheel that came off a tractor while he was guarding prisoners cleaning the road.
I had a wheel and tire cross the road about 100 ft in front of me in SC two years ago. This one crossed I-95 keep going into the woods and didn't kill anyone.
From my own like of checking, I lost the hub on the lift drive because the lugs got loose and I didn't check them like they should have been.
Glad this came up, haven't checked mine lately think I better do that before another trip.
Jack
Clifford,
The thing that sets you way apart from the norm is your method. Any can develop their own process and be successful and safe if they do what you did. Make the change and monitor it closely till it is proved. Collect the history and share it.
I would add one thing to your process and that is what I just discovered the other day. I wire brushed all the contact areas of the nut and cleaned the threads really good, wire brushing the studs and exterior threads of the nuts. I think the biggie was cleaning the part of the nut that jams up against the rim. My tightening used to involve a lot of creaking and snapping and the cleaning stopped that even with dry assembly.
If I were getting metal movement from the nut/rim contact I think I would be "lapping" the two together and numbering and mating the nut to the hole. How much do those rims cost, now?
Now, just why do the mfr.s go to the trouble of warning us to "not grease' the nuts on stud centered wheels? What is the science/engineering ? Just for background now as I am a believer cause nothing succeeds like success.
Thanks again for the info,
John
JohnEd, not all manufactures of studs and nuts recommend not using lube if you check they have different plating ( colors will be gold or zinc ) on the nuts and studs I use the gold color and they recommmend lube.
FWIW the guys that use the hub centered system on the newer buses have a far better system than us that have stud centered I am looking for that system if you come across a model 20 NJT Eagle that somebody is parting out.
The 22.5 9 inch aluminum wheels are 515.00 each (buying without sales tax in Oregon) now polished on both sides, the powered coated inner steel wheels were 180.00 each and don't ask why I wanted polished on both sides LOL but I will tell you anyway it makes for easier rotating
good luck
John,
One thing I have noticed about dry seating wheel studs is that they don't last very long. The manufacturers sell alot more of them. They are more easily damaged and the damage spreads from stud to stud faster forcing you to buy all new ones alot sooner than if you use a lube.
The only issue I can think of is that if the wheel end gets hot from braking it could cook the lube and make it harder to get the hardware off. I have never seen that myself.
When Clifford says he has checked the torque on his 1 inch IR gun with his 800lb torque wrench and its correct, I hope everyone realizes how much physical effort it takes to put 480lbs on the end of a hand torque wrench. It ain't no small feat! I have the little brother to Clifford's 800 pounder. Its a 5 foot 600 pounder and it takes a real strong man to pull 480 pounds at 5 feet, it's no job the boys can do, and if I did 10 of those in one day, that would be alot more than I want to do.
That's why I said you folks with the half inch thunder guns and broken trick tools are fooling yourselves. Its also why Clifford's wheels stay on... Right tool for the right job.
I also believe Clifford's method is the norm. That's pretty much how the industry does tire hardware. Most tire shops will allow you to have some input, but the bottom line is you are going to need a decent 1 inch tire gun if you are going to do this kind of work at home, do it right and keep it safe.
This is somewhat academic. Not everyone has the good tools or ever will have. The 2 hour inspection rule is for hazardous materials. I run alot of hazmat so I have the habit and it follows me all the time, hazmat or not. Still, if everyone will inspect their equipment regularly, and family's are just as important as hazardous materials, no one should ever loose a wheel off their bus.
Hello: This thread is a bit more civilized than the last one on this situation. When I mentioned that I used neversieze sparingly I was flamed and accused of not caring about other drivers on the road and not following manufacturers reccommendations etc etc etc.. Must be my liberal nature shows ..
Anyway the government did a study and you can find it if you google truck tire safety etc.. The conclusion of the study I believe if memory serves is that 65% or so of wheel failures are caused by loose nuts.. and 20% by overtight nuts.
SO the bottom line is that if your nuts are loose 2/3s of the time you might lose your wheels; But if your nuts are too tight you will only lose your wheels 20% of the time.
So it behooves us all to tighten our nuts correctly to provide the proper tension and torque so that we don't lose our wheels..
The study did not take into account weather the failed nuts were left or right handed so we should not intuit who may have loose or tight nuts by what they think about the current state of the union.. or if the wheels are coming off as we speak..
Regards and happy bussin mike
So after all the hoopla,What's the correct torque for aluminum and steel wheels?
Quote from: Slide on September 07, 2009, 01:17:26 PM
So after all the hoopla,What's the correct torque for aluminum and steel wheels?
Good ole boy/ "industry standard" = 3 'hammers' with a 1" impact gun with antiseize
-OR-
Engineered with full understanding of all the loads on the hardware/ Manufacturers specifications = in the service manual or on their website.
Seems to be your choice.
Without looking, I think stud pilot (Budd nut style) are 475 (dry), and I don't recall there being any different specs for steel vs alum.
Anyone with more current specs, feel free to correct me.
Clifford, if you know your bearing numbers, PM them to me and I'll check & see what I have for hub pilot hubs...they really are the way to go, wheel last longer...nothing used to piss me off more than having to junk an aluminum wheel because the stud holes got all wallered out.
http://www.accuridewheels.com/SafetyManual/section%20XII.pdf (http://www.accuridewheels.com/SafetyManual/section%20XII.pdf)
Loads more detail provided concerning the wheel mounting procedure here.
Interesting that they recommend replacing the adjacent studs when replacing a broken one. . . .
Should be required reading for anyone who wants to change their wheels.
I'm sure some can accurately use a 1" impact gun to properly tighten their wheels, but the more I read concerning how they do it, the more details come out. The problem with incomplete information is that newbies don't know it is incomplete.
It has also been confirmed that tire shops use an impact gun as a time saving short cut. That may be fine if you have enough experience, but to advise newbies to do that (with no seasoned veteran to show them the finner points) seems irresponsible to me.
I'd also maintain the wheel studs/ nuts are loaded differently than any other bolted connection on a vehicle. That may make all the difference when it comes to why lubrication on the threads or wheel mating surfaces is not recommended (hub pilot wheels are a different issue).
Thanks Kyle! I got one right.
Kyle,
I agree with everything you have said and I also agree with what Clifford has said. I see no contradiction. Remember, I said everything.
Thank you for sharing that informative site. Everything I needed to know. One thing was that all the nuts need to be checked periodically. I wonder what their period is. I didn't see that but I might have missed it.
Thanks again,
John
That is a good site I have a Accuride instructors manual I bought years ago when it was Firestone, but about the lube you guys do a little research and you will find that a big sales pitch for Accuride was the inner and outer nuts made by them was as quoted " No lubrication required ".
I am sure some of you guys remember the Teflon coated inner and outer nuts for the aluminum wheels made by Euclid and that process is still used today on the nuts and washers for some of the hub center wheels.
For years different wheel manufactures had different degrees of angle on the inner and outer nuts 30, 45 and 60 degrees 60 being the standard today for all wheel manufactures and no one ever paid any attention to that fwiw I have a old 70 model truck that has 30 degrees nuts on it.
Any way if you guys see a green Eagle with the wheels off on the side of the hi way you can always tell me I told you so.
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on September 07, 2009, 08:57:33 PM
Any way if you guys see a green Eagle with the wheels off on the side of the hi way you can always tell me I told you so.
That's funny, I don't care who you are!
Ain't no substitute for experience . . . .
The biggest baffling thing to me is how some have a mechanical feel & some don't.
Just look at the cars on the road with stuff hanging off, or listen to some of the discussions at the discount auto parts store counter - scary what some delve into . . .