Hi Folks,
The '76 MCI 8 we recently bought came with all the dishes, cookware, towels, linens, and all the items typically used in a bus conversion. I also found an X-12 geared lugnut wrench in one of the bays. I am putting the steer tires on the tag (one tag tire is bald) and putting better tires on the steer axle. With the X-12 I only need 42 foot lbs. torque on the handle to get 504 foot lbs. torque on the lugnuts if there is no loss in the gears of the X-12. Anyone care to give an opinion as to whether I need to increase the torque on the handle of the X-12 to compensate for the friction in the wrench? If so, how much? This may be over thinking the issue but I'm curious.
Thanks, Sam 4106/MCI 8
Hello: YOu may find all sorts of opinions about if that unit works and and and...
THe correct procedure of how you torque and the way you position the wheel and how you line everything up to properly seat the wheel is very important. Also going around 3 times with the proper pattern is very important.. IE following recommendations.
I would find someone with a torque wrench a 4 footer and check your work after finishing a set of tires to make sure you are where you think you are with respect to the right torque settings.
I have a 4 foot torque wrench and an X12. I generally use the X12 for all loosening as it works very well for that application. After careful cleaning of all studs I start all nuts by hand; using a very light coating of neversieze. Horsing those wheels into position can be arduous so carry tapered blocks and pry bars to make that task easier. Then I use the rattle gun for one round of torque and the torque wrench to take the nuts to 350 then 500.
However having said that if I was on the road I would use the X12 for everything then a final check with the torque wrench. I like the X12 and I know it can do the job..
Bus Warrior usually chimes in and has the procedures down that the transit people use..
FWIW...
Regards and happy bussin mike
It is my understanding that you are not to use never-sieze on stud-piloted wheels. I was told that regular engine oil is the proper lubrication for studs and nuts.
I am sure I will be flamed and burnt to a crisp for that...however the folks that told me that have NEVER had a problem with wheels, studs and such doing it! And that is after hundreds of million of miles!
Jack
Hello : No flaming from me.. If oil is what you were told to use so be it.. I have used neversieze for 40 years with no adverse effects but I am very careful about its use and use it very lightly on clean threads. Part of that is from the winters in the northeast and the heavy application of salt which is corrosive and rusts everything quickly.
Any way you do what makes you comfortable and also what risks you are willing to assume.
Most people dont even carry equipment or spare tires and rely on road service.
Regards and happy bussin mike
I also have a X-12 geared lugnut wrench, I set mine to 45 foot lbs. torque on the handle ,That gets me around 540 foot lbs. I had all 6 wheels off my bus at least 2 times in the past year doing brakes and wheel bearings. I love it and never would be without one.
I use neversieze on mine and have for year even use a little on the outer nut to keep it from digging into the aluminium wheels in 500,000 miles of busing never been a problem for me.
Mike must be a lot older than me I haven't used it for 40 years LOL
good luck
I set my torque wrench at 40 lbs. to give me 480 lbs. with my X-12. The book says 450 -500 lbs. for my 5A so i am right in the middle. ;D Been using mine for 3 years now, one of the best things i have bought for the bus.
I use a Proto x10 multiplier. The instructions say to add 10% for loss and also say the use of klick wrenches is prohibited. I use a old beam wrench which is a pain, but usually the manufacture's know what They are talking about! I also use anti-seize and did on My volvo tractor years ago and so far have never lost a wheel. Regards John
The instructions with my X12 say to take your wanted torque and divide by ten set torque wrench at that number.
Allows for friction of gears. In this case I do read the instructions, never had a wheel come loose, and it sure will easily loosen
one.
Ed ;D
The X12 in a planetary gear reduction. That type of gearing is usually quite efficient, usually 97%. This is well within the specified range range of the torque specification. 8)
Before "improving" on the manufacturers recommendations, one should understand why the manufacturer made them.
The reason the manufacturers recommend against using never seize is that for the same torque applied, the tension in the stud is much greater than if the threads had been clean lightly oiled.
This increased tension means :
- more pressure on the nut seat in the wheel
- more stress on the studs & wheel hub
- greater chance of stud or wheel failure
- greater chance of warping wheels or hubs
Friction is what holds the nuts in place, using never seize greatly reduces this friction.
Reducing the torque applied to the nut will keep the stud tension in the safe area, but the friction keeping the nut tight is reduced.
Operating in conditions that cause excessive corrosion creates certain additional needs too.
If I had to use never seize due to corrosion issues, I'd use it so sparingly that none was pushed off by the nut or slung off when running the nuts down at high speed. I can't over emphasise the importance of keeping it on the threads only & none at all on any other wheel or hub surface. I'd also reduce the applied torque by at least 25% & recheck the torque frequently.
All that said, there must be a reason people can get away with using never seize on the threads & nut seats & sometimes over torquing the nuts. I believe it is a combination of a large margin of safety in the design & dumb luck. :o
RE: "you do what makes you comfortable and also what risks you are willing to assume "
That may be fine if you aren't around others, but what about unintended consequences of a failure affecting others on the road? A 200+# wheel coming off at high speed has the capacity to do lots of harm.
Ignorance may be blissful, but when something goes bad, will that bliss be enough to deal with the consequences?
Good luck & best wishes to all. ;D
My X9 torque multiplier came with a data sheet that said use X6.5 for actual torque multiplication.
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 24, 2009, 07:20:15 AM
The X12 in a planetary gear reduction. That type of gearing is usually quite efficient, usually 97%. This is well within the specified range range of the torque specification. 8)
Before "improving" on the manufacturers recommendations, one should understand why the manufacturer made them.
The reason the manufacturers recommend against using never seize is that for the same torque applied, the tension in the stud is much greater than if the threads had been clean lightly oiled.
This increased tension means :
- more pressure on the nut seat in the wheel
- more stress on the studs & wheel hub
- greater chance of stud or wheel failure
- greater chance of warping wheels or hubs
Friction is what holds the nuts in place, using never seize greatly reduces this friction.
Reducing the torque applied to the nut will keep the stud tension in the safe area, but the friction keeping the nut tight is reduced.
Operating in conditions that cause excessive corrosion creates certain additional needs too.
If I had to use never seize due to corrosion issues, I'd use it so sparingly that none was pushed off by the nut or slung off when running the nuts down at high speed. I can't over emphasise the importance of keeping it on the threads only & none at all on any other wheel or hub surface. I'd also reduce the applied torque by at least 25% & recheck the torque frequently.
All that said, there must be a reason people can get away with using never seize on the threads & nut seats & sometimes over torquing the nuts. I believe it is a combination of a large margin of safety in the design & dumb luck. :o
RE: "you do what makes you comfortable and also what risks you are willing to assume "
That may be fine if you aren't around others, but what about unintended consequences of a failure affecting others on the road? A 200+# wheel coming off at high speed has the capacity to do lots of harm.
Ignorance may be blissful, but when something goes bad, will that bliss be enough to deal with the consequences?
Good luck & best wishes to all. ;D
I thnk Kyle is mostly correct. The torque value for stud pilot wheels is "dry", and there is some validity to a little never seize on the threads to prevent corrosion, but you don't want it on the treads to act as a lubricant under the nut other wise it would not be a "dry" torque value.
Again, there have been many ways to skin a cat over the years, some just messier than others.
Well Dave G got back before I did, but I will still post the info from Accuride Wheels.
SECTION XII: PROCEDURES FOR INSPECTING AND INSTALLING
ACCURIDE RIMS/WHEELS ON VEHICLES (continued)
STUD PILOTED MOUNTING (continued)
3. Install Wheel on Vehicle.
◆ Front Wheels
Slide front wheel over studs. Be careful not to damage
the stud threads. Snug up nuts in the sequence
shown in Figure 8. Do not tighten them fully until all
have been seated. This procedure will permit the
uniform seating of nuts and ensure the even, face-toface
contact of wheels, hub, and drum. Tighten nuts
to 450-500 ft.-lbs. (dry) using the same criss-cross
sequence.
◆ Dual Rear Wheels
Slide the inner dual wheel over studs. Be careful not to
damage the stud threads. Snug up nuts in the sequence
shown in Figure 8. Do not tighten them fully until all have
been seated. This procedure will permit the uniform
seating of nuts and ensure the even, face-to-face contact
of wheels, hub, and drum. Tighten nuts to 450-500 ft.-lbs.
(dry) using the same criss-cross sequence.
Align the hand holes of the outer dual wheel to those of
the inner dual wheel to allow access to the air valves.
Slide the outer dual wheel over the inner cap nuts.
Repeat the entire procedure except using the nut
tightening sequence in Figure 8. Tighten the outer
cap nut to 450-500 ft.-lbs.
4. Torque Nuts Properly.
◆ Be sure to tighten wheel nuts to the recommended nut torque. Do not over tighten. Do not lubricate the nuts or studs.
◆ After the first 50 to 100 miles of operation, recheck the torque level and retighten nuts to the proper torque level.
Before inner cap nuts are retightened, be sure to loosen the outer cap nuts first, tighten inner cap nuts, and then
retighten outer cap nuts to proper torque level.
◆ Maintain nut torque at the recommended level through planned, periodic checks or at 10,000 mile intervals, whichever
comes first. Individual fleet experience may dictate shorter intervals or allow longer intervals.
◆ If air wrenches are used, they must be periodically calibrated for proper torque output. Use a torque wrench to check
the air wrench output and adjust the line pressure to give correct torque.
■ Other Mounting Patterns
Other stud piloted mounting patterns may use different nuts and stud sizes requiring different nut tightening sequences
and different recommended torque levels. Consult with the wheel manufacturer. Also refer to page 52 for additional
information.
I don't think you can achieve correct repeatable
torque values on unlubricated threads no matter
what the book says!
Dave Rasor 4104-2375
Extensive testing & research demonstrates that clean unlubricated threads provide the most consistency for achieving a desired clamping pressure.
The reason is because it is too easy to get oil on parts that should be dry - the nut's ball seat in the rim & the wheel/ hub interface.
One needs to remember that if you're going to oil the threads, do so sparingly & correctly. You should also reduce the 'DRY TORQUE' specification accordingly in order to prevent wheel & stud damage.
ARP automotive fasteners, probably the premier
racing fastener mfg. in the country, possibly the
world strongly recomends the use of assembly
lube on fasteners but recognizes that different
lubes require different torque values. If when you
are tightening a dry fastener and you hear it
squeeking and you still think you are getting
accurate torque readings you would be wrong.
Dave Rasor
oh boy, well, here's hoping...
FWIW, from all the neat stuff I've read and the neat people I've had the honour to be in presence of....
For best practices,
We want to be sure that the threads are clean. That means wire brush, one of those smaller ones mounted in a cordless drill makes it really easy, and a spray of solvent and a rag to remove other crap.
We want to inspect the threads closely for any evidence of their being pulled or stretched. Threads not leaning out as if in a breeze, stud thinner inside where the wheel rim would be.
Good check: Does a wheel fastener run all the way in to the drum by hand? On all 10/40/60 studs?
Got some kids around? Make it a game, candy for each one to the drum? I dunno, I'm lazy and thinking out loud.... If they hang up beyond their regular travel, be afraid, be very afraid, that's where a lot of the stretch happens for over torqued studs.
Check that the mating surfaces of the rim and the drum/hub are clean, rust free, that there is no wear or elongation of the holes, and that the correct rim thickness and chamfer angles are present. Gauges for this for steel and aluminum rims are available from manufacturers.
Of particular note, paint thickness on steel rims has been found to be the cause of loosened fasteners. Both at the fasteners and between drum/rim and rim. Home painting will leave the paint too thick, perhaps scrape it off the fastener mating surfaces, fasten the wheels, give them a squirt once they are on to seal up the metal and make them look good.
Ok, when it comes to lube, one or two drops of engine oil on the end of the stud, and a drop or two into the flange of a hub pilot system. Every manufacturer clearly states that there is to be no lube on the mating surfaces between wheel fastener and rim, no matter hub or stud pilot.
Many of us have seen those charts for degrading torque for lubricated fasteners versus dry. I have not seen a wheel manufacturer bold enough to suggest you can use those for fastening wheels.
For those of us concerned with corrosion, apply liberal amounts of stuff to the exposed threads AFTER the wheels are properly fastened. Of course, we need to clean that off for the next time with a spray of solvent.
There is a risk of losing the wheel in under torquing a wheel and there is risk in over torquing. Research suggests that lube on the threads makes unintended over torquing too easy, potentially putting the studs in jeopardy.
We want to aim for the middle, and the manufacturers and big fleets have significant liability in getting it wrong in either direction. Stick with the current best practices, and it will be hard for a busnut to go wrong.
And the thing that makes wheel maintenance easiest? Do it regularly!! Wheels that get taken off at home once a year come off easy, and go back easy. And makes greasing and inspecting everything else so much easier.
For myself, for fastening, I use the manual method, my weight out far enough on the fence pipe extension. But I've been fortunate that I have the peace of mind, and the continued youthful vigour, to have been able to pull a proper 500 ft/lb torque wrench enough times to feel comfortable that I have been achieving the same thing via simple science.
Great thread!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
There are some that firmly believe in lubing the wheel studs vs. the recommended dry installation.
I'm not a fan of dry moving contact either, but when those with the most to loose (the manufacturers) recommend a method that seems less than ideal, I dig a little to find out why.
So, with the intent of learning something -
A question for those that put lube or antisieze on their wheel studs -
What lube do you use?
What torque spec do you use?
Where did this information come from?
The cyclic loading of a wheel stud is unique on a vehicle. It goes past simple clamping (rod bolt), past thermal expansion (heads & manifold bolts), past shear (crankshaft & flywheel).
I had assumed this was part of the reason why these connections shouldn't get oiled.
Someone stated their belief that you can't get uniform results from dry threads & then admitted the use of different oils requires different torque values.
Hmmmmm,
Could it be that there is actually a larger spread in the results with oil?
I haven't ever seen an oil correction factor chart for wheel studs.
I have seen the cautions against oiling the studs.
I have seen the instructions to clean & check the studs (which many ignore).
I have seen the gauges for checking the wheel holes.
Safe travels!
Hi Folks,
Thanks to all for your responses. I especially appreciated the one from Ed Brenner with information from the instruction manual for the X-12. I have only changed two of the four tires I need to, but I really like the X-12. My 1" drive air impact wrench will be finding a new home with another bus nut since I no longer have the strength to use it.
Thanks again for all the information, Sam 4106/MCI 8.