Except for some mechanical work in the past and some in progress, we haven't really started the conversion on our '89 102A3. We retired last year and want to get on the road full time before the polar caps melt.
The window skinning, floor plan, furniture, etc. have been cast in stone for some time. In fact, except for the generator and Motosat, everything (appliances, sinks, lights, etc.), has been purchased on sale and is sitting in storage.
We are looking for someone to skin 4 windows on each side, and do the interior wood work. No deep gloss hand rubbed cherry or rose wood styling. We want some nice looking white wood cabinets and white walls in a side isle design with enclosed bath. Some Ozite or something similar on the ceiling, with Corian counter tops. I will do the AC/DC and electronic wiring and plumbing -- things I do well.
I don't have a clue what the costs of farmed out conversion work would be. I've only talked to one converter so far, and I realize I haven't gone into a lot of detail about our plan here, which is nothing out of the ordinary, but I have been quoted around $50K for skinning windows and interior wood work. That seems somewhat steep to me, but then I really don't know. Exterior painting , tires and wheels are not included in the above price.
I would appreciate comments / advice from anyone with knowledge or experience in the conversion field and realistic costs associated with it. Thank you, Chuck
Chuck that seems way to HIGH to me. However that said I have never done it, or had it done!
But I can garuntee you that if you go to a rally or 2 and ask around you'll find plenty of experienced hands who would be willing to help or do it for much cheaper! And I know for a fact a good rally to come to is coming up!
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12698.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12698.0)
steel tents welcome and there will be knowledgeable folks here that can & will help! ;D
;D BK ;D
Chuck, 50 grand sounds high but not bad to me from a converter cabinets are a pain in a bus and and am sure you will have cabinets and closets in the bath and bedroom with Corian costing around 50 to 75 bucks a square foot installed it will cost money.
In to days economy I would check with a cabinet maker in your area maybe you could cut a deal or hire a cabinet maker by the hour.
good luck
I'm not sure $50,000 is at all out of line. Before we bought the frenchy-bus I got pretty serious with a converter in Ontario. After I supplied him with a chassis there was still about $100k of parts and labour and I think more of that was labour than parts but that's over 5 years ago now and I've drank a lot of scotch in between. You guys that do the work yourself discount just how many hours you actually put into these things.
Material is certainly a factor but the greatest cost is the actual time spent creating a cabinet that fits, there are no straight lines in a bus and the imaginary straight lines that you create to work from change every couple of feet as the curves of the bus change.
Yes it seem like a lot of money but then why are custom coaches so spendy ? I think for work farmed out it is a bargain price for all the work that has to be done. Just tearing the bus down is a job in itself. I think it would take more than one person to do the job in a reasonable amount of time.
I have not gotten to the finish work yet and have to say time is the factor here. I takes time to make things fit in a bus. With bus, gen, windows, siding, plumbing and a good start on electrical. I have not figured in any of my time and I am in about 30 grand and one and a half years of part time spent. To each his own but 50 k sounds high to me but I can do this kind of work. If one is looking for someone else to do it the wage to do it will be high.
I can't comment on the price of having the work you describe done by a professional converter. All I can say is doing the work is a lot of work! The cost of materials is probably 1/3, the other 2/3 is labor. As I could not afford it to be done by someone else I took the low road and did it myself. Is the quality as good, nope. I have made a lot of mistakes and learn as I go. I am doing this for the experience and my labor is cheap.
Remember you pay for what you get.
Get some more estimates, but keep in mind not everyone will do the work exactly the same way. It's a matter of how deep you pocket is. If you can afford it, go for it. Get the contract in writing so you know upfront if there will be any add ons that don't surprise you on the final bill.
Good Luck and really hope you get the coach of your dreams finished to your liking.
One more thing, do you have any pictures? I have a friend that has a 102A3 that might get inspired with ideas on yours, maybe he will follow your post and ask himself, huh Doug. ;)
Paul
I am not sure where you are located, but let me chime in.
If you are on the East coast, I know of one shop not to use. Don't use Star Jet, in Columbus OH. They are a well known shop, and I think that they would do just fine just painting (they did fine, not great, on our paint job). However their other work was terrible. I can go into details if you want, but if you don't live near enough to consider them, then I won't bother.
About the price. I would say that for just the skinning should be a total of 10K max for the skinning, and maybe a solid color paint job, or maybe some more for the paint job.
Cabinets? I really don't know, but that price does sound steep. If the guy tells you that materials are so expensive (which they are), then if you are savvy about some of the stuff, provide your own materials (except for the wood, he can usually get a better price on that). We purchased "rejected" oak, and milled it ourselves, which was way cheaper. We actually framed the whole bus out in 2X2 oak sticks. Needless to say, our bus is built solid. Sometime I will try to post pics, but our bunks are built with the idea that in the event of a wreck, they wouldn't collapse (we know another group that had a wreck, and all of their bunks collapsed.
BTW, we got our kitchen counter, for 50 dollars. The guy who we purchased it from, said that it cost him 200, and he would have sold it for 400, but he had been storing it for two years, and basically gave it to us. It is 7ft long and 30 inches wide. It is some sort of man made, silicone based, unbreakable counter top. We got it from a nice counter top dealer. So I would check with a counter top dealer in you area, and be flexible with what you get.
HTH
God bless,
John
Chuck...My name is Thomas Winterhalter. I have taught the Bus Conversions Workshops for the Bus Conversions Magazine. Currently I am working on some articles for the magazine, and your bus project would be a great one to write about.
Where are you located? I live in Tulsa, OK.
Contact me at: busdesigner@aol.com
Probably many of you don't know tom (busdesigner). He is a fantastic person, great teacher, and skilled in most phases of bus conversion.
Tom, are you still in the business of doing conversions?
If so, he would be an excellent candidate!!
Jim
Chuck, 2 friends of mine also have their cabinet and furniture work done at good prices from a Amish cabinet maker in OK between Wagoner and Pryor.
But I don't have any idea how to reach them.
I know he also did work for Vogue on their Prevost conversions and his name is Miller that is about all the info I have on him.
If you know any one in the Tulsa area they might help the only thing I remember about the location was he had a phone booth in his front yard out side the fence on hi way 169
good luck
Just offhand I can't think of any good cabinetmakers, I know a few mediocre ones but none that are really good at what they do. I know one that was offered 75K to do the cabinetry in a prevo from key west and he turned them down when it turned out they had 2 prevos they wanted done for the money.
I don't think the Amish have phones, might be hard to reach them.
I know the Amish in OK don't have phones in the home but on a Sat they line up to use the phones at Wal-Mart in Pryor but this guy had a phone booth outside his yard.
good luck
RV -SAFETYMAN Yes I'm still doing Bus Conversios. Last project I did was to put in a TV lift behind the sofa in a slide out in a Gulf Stream Motohome
Tom, email me a phone number and address I need a TV lift overhead. PS tell Sandy hi
good luck
50 g may or may not be a good price. I think it really depends on the quality you are eventually looking for. I would contact a few converters, see if you can check out their previous work (or recommendations) and then meet with them to get a realistic bid. I know that with all the work I have done (non-professional) I would say $50,000 seems very logical and reasonable.
Good luck!
Grant
I've heard rumors that a guy hired a couple of shipwrights to build the interior of his bus.
If he didn't like something, he would have them tear it out & do it over.
Final job was most impressive!
~$160,000
But it wasn't his money, it was his kids inheritance . . . ;D
When it comes to paying someone to do the work, good luck! This custom stuff will carry a price premium - if it doesn't, you really should find out why the guy's time isn't worth more.
Cheap doesn't cost less if you have to redo it.
Is it worth the $$ saved if you hate looking at the results?
Tough choices . . . Good Luck.
luvrbus
http://www.inca-tvlifts.com/ (http://www.inca-tvlifts.com/) this one has a unit that folds out of ceiling
http://www.auton.com (http://www.auton.com) they are the original TV lift
http://www.tvlift.com/ (http://www.tvlift.com/) this is the one that I used. You can adapt it to come down from the ceiling
Hmmm,
I've been watching these posts on this thread, and I have come to the conclusion that many busnuts aren't marching to the beat of a different drummer.... they are just like little birdies. CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!
Try sourcing custom cabinets and granite/Corian/concrete counter tops for the standard kitchen in a 2500 square foot house.
Without an Island, you can push upwards of $100K without going whole hog, depending on how "Custom" you want.
$30K isn't unusual for a normal kitchen remodel.
You pays yer money and you takes yer chance.
Most of us busnuts are CHEAP because we can't afford more! I would just as well pay $100k to someone to do a real nice interior, but I don't have the money.
The kitchen in my 2800 sq foot house cost well less than $100k and it has Corian countertops along real hardwood floors. I am fairly certain my entire first floor didn't cost $100k. Sure, you can spend $100k if money is no object and you want Viking and Subzero type appliances.
My only comment here is to be very,very careful who you choose and how you pay them.
There are a lot of people out there who;
1. Are outright crooks.
2. Who over estimate their abilities and underestimate time and cost.
3. Just don't know what they are doing.
So, get references, itemize EXACTLY what you expect done, when and how much. After you have a contract which carefully spells out every detail, don't change a thing, however minor without an addendum spelling out the time and cost. If it's not in writing, you didn't say it, and neither did they.
I have been burned a little but I have seen other people charred to a crisp.
That $50,000 can become $100,000 in the blink of an eye and they will have your bus hostage.
Thank you for all the comments. I appreciate the time to respond and the candid information. I will look at other converters, but the information gained here and some calculator work this morning shed a new and more realistic light on the price range. And yes, I have seen his work -- very nice. And I will have a tight contract and scope of work.
Busdesigner, Hi Tom. Yes Elva and I took one of your classes in Nov. 2003 I believe, at Mike's place in Westminster. Probably the most important thing I learned in your class was to acknowledge my limitations.
Jim, I hope you've been able to make some progress on your engine maladies.
Thanks again,
Chuck & Elva Newman
Oroville, CA
Busn1@moonlightmadness.org
Chuck,
You seem to have a solid cash foundation. If you do the electrical and plumbing you can probably "helper" on everything else. This board has people that have done every aspect/phase of conversion and they liked it and share it. If you find a concern that "can do it all" you are in a professional shop and you will pay shop rate. I suspect that is $70 or more. Try doing this like a general contractor would....get quotes for each stage. They can't come to you so you have to travel to them. I have no doubt that there are Knuts on here that would take some of this as a project. None would do it all but each would beat the crap out of a shop rate. Take your "concrete plans" down to the scheduled get togethers in Fla and elsewhere and meet and speak with one of the finest groups you might ever find. Find out what they have to say about your concrete and determine what stages can be done independently. See who would "like" to do part of your project and when they would "like" to do it. OR if they can recommend a reasonable shop to do that phase. You now have a "tin tent" and can travel, right? Retired? Have the time? If you have the time and the money and the min skills and the desire....I think you are headed for heaven. Wish I could go there.
I urge you to investigate painting the thing outside. There are posts on here that go through the painting yourself experience. Out come has been.....near pro job.....a couple grand for materials....lots of work. Check the shop prices. You should run into some of these at the meets.
HTH,
John
Chuck,
After following stories on this board for almost a year, starting when I purchased my 102A3 last September, I have learned a lot about this hobby that I never dreamed of.
After a slow in start May I am doing my best to keep the project moving forward. I have removed windows and skinned the sides and the bus is currently in primer awaiting paint. A couple of friends and I spent right at 150 hours stripping the bus, adding the skins and preparing the bus for paint. The bus is scheduled to be painted by the end of the month???
I will spend the winter on the inside of the bus with insulating, wall additions, electrical and plumbing systems. I too have purchased components for the inside and have it in storage.
It saddens me to hear or read stories about other bus nuts who either cannot afford to maintain their bus or have health issues that is resulting in not being able to use the bus. Last summer my friend Paul and I went to look at an Eagle that was for sale locally by an elderly fellow that had spent three years completing the conversion. He had used the bus only a few times when his wife developed dementia to a point that she could no longer travel in the bus. He kept the bus for a few more years until last year when he turned 80 and began to have poor health himself. While walking around the bus he was telling me about how he couldn't wait until it was completed and the two of them could ride off into the sunset. Tears came to his eyes and he told me that all his work turned out to be for nothing. At that time bus prices had started to drop and his bus was not nearly worth what he had invested. I left his place feeling really bad about his situation.
Life is very short and I read many stories on this board about bus nuts who are enjoying the hobby and all of the friends they have met. All of us who are still healthy need to stop once in and think how fortunate we are.
Chuck, stick with the bus project and you will find a way to get it done. I plan on doing most of my bus conversion by myself and I hope to complete the conversion for $25k. I have a nice shop for my bus project and I am fortunate to have most of the skills and equipment required to complete the conversion.
I do hope that I have some good luck with my 8/92 engine as I have kept up with those who have/are having engine problems and having to overhaul the engine would be a definite discouragement. I think the biggest surprise I have since becoming involved in this hobby is the high maintenance cost to maintain the bus. Normal things like A/C maintenance, tire replacement and a brake job can cost a small fortune.
Good luck to you and keep us posted on your progress as you move forward.
Doug
Just my opinion mind you but you gotta enjoy the doing.
Building a conversion for some may be all about being done to enjoy it.
I like the building and then a trip or two to see how it all works.
Then a little more building modifying changing improving removing redesigning.
Then another trip or two. I take notes when we travel about what to do during the down time.
WE love to do the traveling and planning I love to do the conversion work.
Sometimes the little things are as satisfying as the big stuff.
Enjoy the bus when you are traveling or working on it.
Just my way
Melbo
Where are you located. Would you be willing to travel?
Somewhere in CA.
God bless,
John
Ericbsc,
We currently are in Oroville, CA. We alternate between here and Sioux Falls, SD. Have a few more mechanical projects (dryer, air leveling system, etc.) then it's off to Oregon for conversion and paint.
John316,
Very nice looking coach you have there! I wanted a smooth side D series but couldn't afford it back in "04 when we purchased our A3. I should have waited. At least I got a repowered unit with Series 50 and DDEC III for the same price as a 8V92. At 11 mpg, I don't need more power. Hope to see your's sometime down the road.
Doug1968,
Your story of the fellow with the Eagle absolutely hit the nail on the head. Life IS SHORT. Elva and I are in good health in early 60's and we don't want to roll the dice any longer. Hence our decision to let a converter have at it. In 6 months we can be living our full time dream, whether it lasts 1 year or 20.
I lost far more money in 2001 in the market and again last year on a "family deal", than the $50-$60K this conversion will cost us in. I needed some validation that I was going in the right direction here and wanted input to explore all options. Thank you once again to all of you folks who responded. The light is now on, and we are moving forward.
Chuck, wise choice on the guys in Oregon is Mike going to do the paint he is the best and Larry does first class work and I find both to be very honest.
good luck
Keep us informed please. It will be nice to know somebody whose rig is being converted, and then done (well no conversion is ever done ;D).
Anyways, we will look forward to pics. Keep it up!
I will post pics of our progress....sometime ;D ;D ;D. Today we are working electrical (uggh). I hope we get that finished up soon. We are going with LED's for most of our lighting. I think that they will be hidden strips of lights. Cabinets are being built right now, and I have the HVAC ducting installed. We got our new generator set up so we can run 120 off of it. It was set up for 240.
So much to do, so little time ;D.
God bless,
John
John316, You better start showing pictures, I like to copy what others have done! ;D
Chuck, Good Luck on your conversion, Mike will do a great job on your paint, look at Clifford's, unbelievable! Take a look at some of his work here
http://www.willyscustomconcepts.net/ (http://www.willyscustomconcepts.net/)
Keep us all informed of your progress and show as many pictures as you can. We like to see all the goodies!
Take Care,
Paul
Well make it about double to what you will think it will be. I know i have at least 125000.00 and probably closer to 140,000.00 if I would take the time to add up the receipts. This is not counting the many hours of work. but with that being said I did enjoy that part. I have not used it at all since the work has been done, most of the things have not even been use. not even the john, which is a new china closet. I have had it for sale for over a 1 and half. had some calls but no one with any money. So there she sets and that is where she can, I'm asking 79000.00 about half of what I have in it. I maybe would drop a little other then that it can set right there and just maybe I will find time to use it, if I don't run out of time first. still a bus nut. You can not help but love these beast.
I can't imagine spending that kind of money and not using it, I think I would make the time. In this market you may have it for quite sometime, unless you find someone with the cash.
Go out and enjoy the fruits of your labor, it might put a smile on your face! ;) Heck I get all giddy when I can spend 100 bucks on ours!
I know of a lot of us want to do the conversion because we enjoy the work and the challenge. Having converted my 4104, then redoing most of it, then powering it, then finally just tired of always wanting to make some other improvement, I sold it. I bought a 1988 Prevost Angola conversion. Considering life is short, resale of a name brand conversion is maybe a little better, it more than likely will be low mileage, there will still be plenty of challenges in general repairs and the things you want to modify and in today's market an older profession conversion can be bought for 60,000 to 80,000 dollars. Consider this, find one you like, have it checked over, maybe buy some new tires, batteries and hit the road. The older Angola's and Liberty's are supposed be electrically simpler.
Ken
Ken,
I agree. If you can find a conversion you like, go with that. However, some people, like us, never found a conversion that we liked (we looked at conversions all the way up to 500K dollars). All of the entertainers, we old and wore out. The new ones weren't built right....We finally decided that we had to build our own. We could have gotten a entertainer, for what we paid for just the shell, but that wouldn't have been built right. There are always trade offs. Now we are spending months on our conversion, but it will all be worth it having it built right. Yes, it has taken a tremendous amount of thought, drawings, brainstorming, building, sweating, and changing ideas, but we keep telling ourselves that it will be worth it ;D.
So bottom line is, if you are just a couple of people going to travel for only a weekend or two, I would say go with one that is done. If not, do it yourself...Provided finances are there.
God bless,
John
Hi Chuck
I bought my 91 Prevost for $38K 4 years ago, have receipts totaling another $25K for a roof raise, custom made cabinets, woodwork, webasto, 12.5K genset, side by side refer, all appliances, most of the furniture, leveling system, new aluminum wheels. I have the paint, about $17K, corian $5K, carpet, $1K, tanks $1K and awnings $6K left before I call it finished for a total of $93K. I was shooting for $90K from the beginning, thinking I would be okay with the price, that is, until prices went south. I have done everything myself so far and will continue to do so except for the paint and corian. Custom cabinets and woodwork, which I enjoy doing, is not eveyone's cup of tea. I learned to weld, not great but well enough to keep the chasis togetherLike others have said, it satisfies me becasue I am doing it but if I were hiring it out, some of the things I let get by because I did it wouldn't get by if I was paying someone else was doing it, but then, that would cost more to do again.
If you can find a conversion now is the time to buy them. I don't think (fingers crossed) you would get hurt due to the amount of discounted pricing in the market at this time.
The reason I continue to move forward is I enjoy the project, I am motivated to see it to the end. I will have a 91 coach with only 86K original miles on the chasis in a conversion just the way we want it at a reasonable price.
Hope this gives you some idea what it might cost you if you were to move forward with your own conversion but there are a lot of variables.
Rob
91 Prevost LeMirage XL
Missouri
I actually kind of like working on my bus, but I am not happy with how redneck the interior looks right now. I would be happy to pay someone to do the work if I could afford it. A friend of mine in Kansas said he knows someone who does inexpensive, but nice looking bus interiors. He never calls me back to give me the name of the guy.
I have no one to help so sometimes it forever to get things done. My friends who do help from time to time for the most part don't care how it looks so they don't do a good job. I may rip everything out again next summer and do a number of things differently so the end result turns out better this time.
If I take off the massive amount of mechanical work and modifications I've done to the bus, the actual conversion has cost about $45,000.00. I've spent about that much also on mechanical work. I didn't have the money to buy a nice bus, so the transit at $4,000.00 was it. But putting another $40,000.00 into mechanical work shows me I could have had a nice highway bus, if I had the money at first. You do what you can with what you have. At least now I have new steering, air bags, and virtually everything in the engine compartment including the transmission has been rebuilt or replaced. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on August 15, 2009, 01:17:43 PM
If I take off the massive amount of mechanical work and modifications I've done to the bus, the actual conversion has cost about $45,000.00. I've spent about that much also on mechanical work. I didn't have the money to buy a nice bus, so the transit at $4,000.00 was it. But putting another $40,000.00 into mechanical work shows me I could have had a nice highway bus, if I had the money at first. You do what you can with what you have. At least now I have new steering, air bags, and virtually everything in the engine compartment including the transmission has been rebuilt or replaced. Good Luck, TomC
Hey Tom,
What ya got is nice! Especially since it's done (more or less) & PAID FOR! It's better than mine! ;D
;D BK ;D
Thanks BK! I know one of those nice Setras would make a real class act going down the road and coming into a RV park! Good Luck, TomC