...So as most of you know my coach right now is at a repair shop in florida. i forget the shops name, but ace recommended the guy and i spoke with bryce on the phone last week and he had mentioned that he has heard good things about the guy, and that he helped him out once. basically from all the stuff i have heard, this guy is well trusted and respected and does good work. his name is john and he has a shop in lakeland, fl. that might help. i forget the shops name right now.
anyways, since we dont have a huge budget (only 7k) to work with, he said that for 5.5-6k he had a pulled 6v92 that he was going to put in. he said that it smoked, but they changed the injectors and it was fine then. he has no clue how many miles are on the engine, which is a concern of mine, and he said that he won't guarantee the engine either which brings up a red flag to me.
as most of you know, i run my coach off of WVO and john was saying that you are not supposed to do that and i forget if he said that that is why he won't guarantee the engine, or if he wont guarantee it at all.
anyways, i just wanted to get some feedback on if this is a red flag on the shop, and honestly this guy seems very passionate about WVO being harmful yet i know so many people that do it more than us and dont have problems. thanks guys!
That's a decision you are going to have to make depending on your budget and tolerance for risk. You won't find a more honest guy than John Silver, but a used engine is just that. Nobody can guarantee it and you have to trust his judgment.
If it were me, I would go for it, and if it blew up a week later, I would just chalk it up to the luck of the draw. The only thing I would be sure of is that John did not intentionally sell me a bad engine.
You are also assuming some risk by running WVO. Not saying it's a bad thing but the risk is there and it's yours.
Len
If I were in your shoes I would do a hands on inspection of the engine with him even it costs extra, things like looking at the pistons and liners if possible, a compression check (I heard they are a pain but whats it worth?), Oil analysis, Pull the pan and look at the bottom end if you can.
I am no expert with these engines but if it is out of the bus there should be lots of things you can do to help you make a more educated decision. Start by cutting the oil filter open and looking for metal. They make special cutters for doing that. After cutting you cut the acordion paper filter element out and spread it out, if the engine is coming apart you will see metal shavings or fuzz off of what ever is failing. Take a magnet and run it over the element and if there is ferruos steel from the crank, rods, cam, lifters etc.. you will know. If he tells you it's to late for that then walk away from it. If he won't warrantee it then you have do your own warantee.
And lose the WVO it's akin to running car gas in an airplane.
That's what I'd do. FWIW
I would ask for a warranty most all selling you a used engine will carry a warranty of some type for that much monies.
When the warranty runs out install your WVO system for me it would be a no brainier for that much money with no type warranty.
That is the reason we did not buy a rear gear from him unknown mileage and no warranty and he wanted more for one without than one with the warranty from another source.
good luck and spend wisely
There ya have it. As said here there are both sides of the coin!
OK that said I have never warrantied any used component that I have sold other than it is/would be good at time of installation and that it would be in good working order when it left my shop!
That said had I sold you the reman engine I took out of our 102A3 that we bought and installed ($16,000.00 w/reman Alt, Air Compressor, pwr strg pump, starter, all new hoses, gator grip shrinking band hose clamps, & etc.) ourselves. We would have #1 gotten at least $7500 for the engine itself + installation. OK now keep in mind we know exactly the miles & history on this remaned engine that has 90,000 documented miles on it and we know what we spent on it, & the accessories.
OK if you bought it from us and we installed it for you, we'd probably gave you the remaining 10,000 miles on the 100,000 mile warranty it had when we bought it! (ok now that warranty is expired as it was 1 yr or 100,000 miles which ever came first and we put it in 3 yrs ago, and took it out of service after 2 yrs 1 yr ago!) But I feel confident it is good for the remaining 10,000 miles they had warrantied it for!
NOW the problems are!
#1; It's not available anymore since we put it (had it done in Chattanooga) one of our other coaches!
#2; The price we'd had to have had for the engine was above your budget with out labor.
#3; The cost of towing it up here for the installation would have been more than the installation!
#4; We are not in the used parts selling business normally so there ain't no way I'd ever warranty something I didn't know the history of personally!
#5; If I didn't install it, I wouldn't warranty it! PERIOD! (not saying your installer isn't as good, or better than us) It's just that no matter who it is or how good/nice they are you can't guarantee someone else's work!
Personally I'd say the cost is fair enough and I might ask him to go ahead and quote you a price to check the suggested items on top of selling it & installing 4 ya! Then dig deep and be prepared to pay his MAXIMUM quoted price and no more! If he finds problems before installing it your not out any $!
JMHOFWIW!
By the way I swear on the Gator Grip clamps! After 2 yrs & 90,000 miles in service he had 0 failures! And most are still on the engine as it went back in the other bus! (we left everything we could attached to the engine!)
;D BK ;D
Any shop selling you a engine installed should know the condition of that engine for his own protection.
I have seen David and Dennis @ Southern Oregon Diesel install used engines and always gave the buyer a warranty.
I personally know of one 8v92 he installed in Howards MCI 9 and through no fault of him or the engine because Howard got it hot and used the override and kept running it till he lost the engine.
Point here is David paid out almost twice of what he originally charged for a new engine in Howards bus and that is what I would expect from any shop selling me a engine installed.
FWIW David doesn't do bus work anymore except for people he knows LOL
good luck
I have had John do work for me and will not hesitatye to use him again. Hard to find a more honest guy - especially in Florida! If you don't like his deal go some where else.
JimH
Maybe it's different up here in Michigan, but I have been selling used parts for cars and trucks for many years (www.wreckstore.com (http://www.wreckstore.com)) and everything I sell comes with a minimum of a 30 day warranty for free replacement. If we install it, then it's free parts and labor. We process over 1600 vehicles per year and even though we try to test and document every vehicle, sometimes we can't. If we don't know the history, or can't test due to the nature of the accident we just disclaim it to the customer but it is still covered. I've sold engines out of auction vehicles that were obviously running when they were wrecked but couldn't be tested and turned out to be bad, just the way it goes sometimes. This has bit me in the past but that's all part of the business. You need a dollar amount put on just the engine, and see if it's worth finding something a little better ( maybe a little more expensive) and then making your decision. Sometimes a little more money goes a long ways even if it takes more time to accomplish it.
Good Luck
My 2 cents . . .
Warranties are nothing more than an insurance policy & as with any insurance policy, the one selling it doesn't pay the premium, the customers do.
When it comes to used parts, there is a real & practical difference between a business that buys used vehicles in bulk for the sole purpose of parting out & the business that occasionally has used parts to sell. Sometimes you find yourself in the position of having to compromise. . . .
(Are you having to pay storage?)
Sounds like the guy is trying to help you out by eliminating things that you don't need in order to get going. To offer a warranty, he will have to add $$ to the price he has to charge.
Used is used. I've sold 2 running engines that the buyer got to test drive & thoroughly check out before taking them out - one lasted 200,000+ miles without incident, the other threw a rod after 10 miles. . . .
I'm sure his crystal ball is no better than yours. He seems to be well thought of, do you think that would be if he wasn't conscientious about the quality of his work?
Surely you can't reasonably expect a repair shop to accept responsibility for the actions of others outside their control. Especially since it is so easy to ruin an engine with just poor driving practices.
If he will warranty his work & the labor for a reinstall if the engine goes 'toes up' due to an installation fault in the first 30 days - that would be good enough for me.
Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith.
That leap may be to spend more at a different shop, or it may be to spend less now by accepting financial responsibility for a possible failure in the future.
I wouldn't use any shop if I didn't trust their judgement, way to easy to spend thousands for nothing. . . .
If you trust his judgement, follow his advice.
If you aren't going to follow his advice, why trust him to do the work?
(Have you asked 'the Man'? What did He say?)
I know several busnuts that have had John do work for them and have never heard a negative comment. John and and his father (owner before John took over) are both members of the SE Busnuts. The name of his business is Central Florida Bus Repair. Jack
Has nothing to do with John's honesty or workmanship Jack it's about backing a product or service.
Mike Wilson painted my bus 4 years if I get it scratched or a bubble he will repair it free I never get a bill.
Dick Kaiser in Eugene the same he did front end work for me and I had a front wheel seal start leaking 2 years later no charge must be a East /West coast deal.
I don't mind paying a fair price but I do like people to stand behind their products or service and 6 grand is a hand full of 100 dollar bills to part with and get a thank you only but it is his bus and money
good luck
Phooey.
ilyafish, enough folks on here say your coach is in a good place, that's good enough for me.
A reputable shop is a reputable shop. Get the job done and get back on the road.
We've got a vendor here who has a good reputation trying to help at a certain price point.
I don't know about any of the business owners on here, but my observations are the most trouble comes from the cheapy jobs.
The engine is on the shop floor, and is cheap if no more work is performed other than swapping it. If you want it all checked out, that is going to cost, something that makes the deal unworkable with the cash available.
A warranty? On a good used take out? Some of you guys and your expectations... I expect you find yourselves either turned away or are quietly being taken to the cleaners. I'd smile and mark up the price to you by a hefty amount.
When it comes to a motorcoach, there are too many of us in over our heads financially.
Same as the 2nd/3rd tier commercial operators, we can use up the coach, we can buy a cheap coach, thinking we're ok, but we can't afford to replace/refresh what has been used up.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Kyle, well put, well said.
FWIW BW expectations are good we just installed a 8v92 takeout in a Eagle bus that came with a one year warranty if it's worth 5 or 6 grand it's worth a little backup down the road.
A 6v92 without any warranty is a 1000 to 1200 dollar engine I have 2 here now that run
good luck
I'm guessing John don't like your choice of fuels and that has alot to do with his position. What happened to your old engine? Anything that could have been fuel related?
John is looking at the old one thinking the new one is going to die the same death and that its all out of his hands...
Thank you guys for all of your input.
I am not questioning John....i fully trust him and his judgement. Its just that there is no history on the engine. If he had said it has 100k on it, and knew the maintenance history on it and stuff, i would be completely comfortable with that. So honestly, it almost has absolutely nothing to do with John. It has to do with an engine that he has no knowledge about (which is not his fault obviously). Its all about how much risk I am willing to take, and i would like as minimal risk as possible. No matter how great he is at what he does, there is no way he can tell what is on the inside by looking at what is on the outside, at least not without more $$$$. Here is the position i am in,
1. I am 22 years old. Unlike most people, i cant afford to spend 7k and if something goes wrong in 3 weeks just say 'oh well, i'll suck it up'. Because that just puts me in the position I am now, and 7k poorer. Thats not a wise move and i will not do that. I am a bus nut with very shallow pockets, which makes things alot harder, but it always ends up working out.
2. John has a 102A3 for sale for 10k with a fresh rebuild, starts right up, beautiful coach....i would have to redo my conversion but that is a good deal....i am only about 2k into my conversion.
3. I am paying $75 a month for storage, which is not much. I would rather pass up this deal, and wait longer until he gets something in that he knows the history of. Honestly, it's almost not the warranty that i want. I want to know that at least what i have is going to last me a little bit.
Again, this is nothing personal against John. He is a great guy and is trying to help me as much as I can, which is awesome. But in this situation its just one of those things where he doesnt know much, and neither do i, and to expect him to find out what he cant and put his word behind something that he doesnt know much history about is high expectations. I was just more so curious as if it was standard procedure to warranty pulled engines, thats all.
Kyle, the big man says be patient and wise and when the right opportunity comes up i will know, and not have doubt and know that it is all from Him. This just doesnt seem like the opportunity.
NJT, honestly all i know is 2 things happened to the old engine....it ran REALLY low on motor oil (though john said that would not cause it to overheat), and our turbo was shot. Those are the only things i know were wrong and somehow resulted in me having a cracked block. Anyone have any ideas?
So yeah, again, John seems to be a very respected and knowledgable guy....and nothing against him, i just dont think that this particular engine with no history known about it is a wise choice.
Quote from: ilyafish on August 06, 2009, 11:38:25 PM
1. I am 22 years old. Unlike most people, i cant afford to spend 7k and if something goes wrong in 3 weeks just say 'oh well, i'll suck it up'.
.
'Scuse me? I can barely support my Geritol habit. ;D
The 102A3 sounds good. It sseems like John will guide you through this OK.
If I were doing it I would pay John a few more bucks and have him inspect the engine before having it installed. Then we both would have a good idea of the condition of the engine.
If it is good he would probably give you a limited warranty, all you can expect with any used assembly.
It may be that he won't give you a warranty under any condition because of your WVO.
It is only reasonable that he won't warranty the engine. If he did he would have to charge you extra to cover himself, only what you can reasonably expect.
Used engines are total unknowns.
OK first off if I were in the business of making my living selling used parts, or if I regularly did so, then by all means I would be offering a warranty. But since I'm not (and neither is John) I just can not any way possible see warranting something that I have no history on especially if it were not mine to begin with!
Now as far as paying John extra to inspect it B4 buying it and installing it, I think I suggested that! ;D BK ;D
Ilya,
Any info on the internal condition of your engine would be of interest to many. Me included! You mentioned the turbo having failed. Was it terrible coked up or did it have foreign object damage such as would be expected by a piston shedding parts/edges? Not asking you to tear the thing down for us/me but if you come by info I, at least, am really curious.
As I recall, you had a good WVO system installed. It had heated fuel lines and a heated filter block. Did it have a heated tank? What I read today is that the oil must be at 195 degrees at the injection point/injector. I am also informed that the oil MUST be dewatered before it is used. I seem to recall you pumping it out of a rest. container directly into your tank for use. If the water was not removed or the oil was not hot enuf , my info is that you would have a short(er) lived engine. you should also see evidence of the problem on the inside of the engine. I hope this all works out for you...really I do. I am getting together the processor equip I need to maker BioD and any info you can provide will find application.
Thanks for you help and good luck with your engine. You said one thing that caught my eye: you said you might want to wait for an engine that John knew and was willing to warranty. If he is willing to warranty "other" engines then I would reject this one if only because others are saying he is very honest. Flags are set.
John