In one of my "ongoing saga" threads (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12749.0), the subject of diesel antifreeze and cavitation came up. I thought I would start a separate thread on the subject.
This subject has been discussed several times on this board, but I thought it would be worth starting yet again another thread.
Large diesel engines (including our DDC two and four stroke engines) require an antifreeze with special specifications. The primary specification is that it must have low silicates and Supplemental Cooling Additives (SCAs).
Automotive antifreeze that you buy at the cheaper automotive stores does not meet these specifications! If the incorrect antifreeze is used, excessive cavitation of the cylinder liners can result. Not all DDC engines have wet liners (where cavitation can result in engine failure if it breeches the liner wall), but it would still be good practice to use the correct antifreeze.
DDC has published a good booklet on the subject: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Public/brochures/7SE298.pdf.
I have posted a picture of cavitation damage at: http://rvsafetysystems.com/Engine_problems.htm. The picture is a thumbnail. Click on it to get more detail.
Jim
Jim I use a good heavy duty antifreeze from Detroit it is green in color, the colored antifreeze most sell are a long life pre charged antifreeze same as the green only with the chemicals added.
Folks make the mistake thinking you never have to add chemicals to the colored stuff for balance big mistake on their part.
Keep your system balanced with clean water and a SCA filter and you don't have problems as you know I don't use distilled water in mine but do use R/O water.
The 4 strokes are more prone to cavitation than a 92 series as the 92 has only 2 inches of the liner that comes in contacts with the coolant and that is at the top for cylinder cooling to make more power.
The 71 series has zero contact with the liners
The advantage of the colored antifreeze is longer life between changes but don't buy antifreeze from a place like Auto Zone.
Fwiw the water specs from DD never included the 2 strokes till a few years ago you should read the water spec in the 92 and 71 manuals good luck and a good subject
Thanks Clifford. I was not aware that DDC sold both "short" life (my term) and "long life" (pink) antifreeze. I think their "Power Cool" is the pink long life version. As I recall it is about $16 per gallon in the full strength version (as opposed to the 50/50 version).
The last I checked at DDC they did not sell the test strips (to test the SCA level) in small quantities. I am told the test strips have a fairly short shelf life. Anyone have a good source for the test strips in quantities of 5 or less?
BTW, I told Chad that I would write an article on this subject. Have not heard back from him yet.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on July 27, 2009, 03:45:08 PM
The last I checked at DDC they did not sell the test strips (to test the SCA level) in small quantities. I am told the test strips have a fairly short shelf life. Anyone have a good source for the test strips in quantities of 5 or less?
Jim,
Fleetguard 3-way test strips, CC2602A, come in a package of four, individually wrapped, with an expiration date on the package. Available at any Cummins dealer.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I lost a couple gallons of Antifreeze changing my old sock type Perry coolant filter to a spin on and need to add a couple gallons. I have seen several posts here about Antifreeze that I called the guys I know here at United Engines. Both of their most experienced techs said any green Antifreeze that you buy anywhere is fine because all the additives in the newer product.
Just thought I would pass this on.
Bryan
I've been using Napa Kool. Is that the correct additive?
Clifford/Jim,
I was told there was a new type antifreeze out, very expensive, as it heats up it expands. For the expansion you have to leave the vent cock/filler cap open. Anyone here of this type?
John
I am not sure what additives are in the antifreeze. But from what the techs told me at United Engines (Detroit Dealer) was that any green antifreeze is fine. Also one of the local coach lines uses a Texaco or something similar. He said there is no need to pay the $16-$18 per gallon. These guys run them for a living so I am sure any green is ok.
HTH,
Bryan
Bryan, not trying to argumentative here, but you need to read the DD spec I cited earlier in this thread. If possible, you may want to read the article I wrote in BC magazine (Sept. 09). Lots of details as to why you want to be careful to use the correct antifreeze.
The following is an excerpt from the article:
>>>>>
There are both SAE and ASTM standards for antifreeze. The two most applicable ASTM standards are D-3306 for automotive antifreeze and D-6210 for what is called "fully formulated heavy-duty antifreeze". The fact that ASTM (and SAE) have unique standards for the two different applications reinforces the difference's in formulations.
>>>>>
In the article I go into a lot of detail about the difference between lower cost automotive antifreeze and antifreeze designed for HD diesel engines.
Color does not define the antifreeze. It is the ASTM standard that does and it is marked on the container.
Automotive antifreeze (ASTM D-3306) can damage your engine. The 71 series is less likely to be damaged, but the 92 series and the modern four stroke can be damaged.
The argument is somewhat like two stroke oil. You can choose to use DD recommended antifreeze or not. You just need to be aware of what the results can be.
Jim
Great Topic.
Well,If I Ever Get My Set Of 2009 BCM Magazines I Ordered Over 8 Weeks Ago. >:( I Will Be Able To Read About The Antifreeze Differences. Also I Wanted To Read All About Jims Engine Saga. ( I Cant Wait ) !!!
They Say You Learn Something NEW Everyday And I Got To Say...... I Had NO Idea That There Is Different Antifreeze For Diesels ?? Compaired To Cars. If That Info Had Not Come From Jim And Clifford I Would Have NEVER Believed It.
So..... Is This Also The Case With My Cuminns In My Dodge Trk ?? Or How About My 8.2 Detroit Diesel In My Crown ?? I Think The Answer Is Going To Be NO. Not Required On The Lighter Duty Engines. RIGHT ??
Ok,So...If I Understand This Right Jim. Only The Series 60 And Kinda Sorta The 8V92 Need This Type Of Antifreeze And Or... Any Diesel That The Liners Are In Contact With Antifreeze. Correct ??...Well I Think I Got It. ;D
Thank You
JOHN 8)
Jim,
I don't take it as argumentative. I am just going by what the dealer was telling me. I do have an 8V-71 dry sleeve, so maybe that is why he told me what he did about antifreeze not making a big difference. I could not find anything in my maintenance manual (GMC Truck and Coach Division X-6310) that stated anything about antifreeze types.
I also looked in my GMC Maintenance Manual (X-6814). The only thing stated in it about antifreeze is to use only Ethylene-Glycol type. It also states the advantage of a higher boiling point.
I am no expert, just posting what was relayed to me. Maybe there is a difference between the 71 & 92 that require more specific antifreeze.
I did try to copy and paste your link and it would not work. Do you have a copy of your article you can email me?
Thanks
Bryan
If cavitation is the main issue, there are additives for that. Are there other reasons for the different standard?
Quote from: Bestekustoms on February 13, 2010, 09:54:16 PM
Great Topic.
So..... Is This Also The Case With My Cuminns In My Dodge Trk ?? Or How About My 8.2 Detroit Diesel In My Crown ?? I Think The Answer Is Going To Be NO. Not Required On The Lighter Duty Engines. RIGHT ??
Thank You
JOHN 8)
John,
I've been using the Napa additive in my Ford Power Stroke. Lin I think it is Napa Kool.
It says in the owner's manual to us the motorcraft additive, which is the same as Napa or International. :o
My understanding is that the additive is like slime that sticks to the cylinder walls so the bubbles can't reach it. ??? ???
I bought and added a coolant additive that specifically applies to diesels from C&J here in Minneapolis. One jug did my whole system. I think it was $20 or so. I can get the name if anyone is interested.
RB
Guys you just don't go sticking and kind of green antifreeze in a 2 stroke read your manual and stay within the specs all the green stuff does not meet the specs.
And I don't use distilled water either I just balance my system with chemicals and a filter
I use the green stuff but I don't buy it at Wal-Mart or Auto Zone.
good luck
John, I will try to gather a few of my recent issues and loan them to you when we get together this week.
Bryan, when I submit an article to BC, it becomes theirs from a publishing standpoint. Mike and I have an agreement that I can publish the PDF version of the various articles after an agreed upon period of time. Mike is looking into converting the technical articles into a PDF version for downloading for a reasonable fee. The main reason that I and other authors are writing these articles is to support Mike's "adventure". That way we can continue to have this great forum and an improving magazine. I am know that this sounds negative, but I really want Mike to succeed. Detroit Diesel must have changed their site. Here is the new link: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/Coolant-Selections.pdf
Lin, as long as you test your fluid with test strips, you are probably OK.
The big issue is that automotive antifreeze has morphed in recent years to address aluminum engines. To do that, the manufacturers have increased the amount of phosphates. The phosphates contribute to cavitation and, according to DD, some seal problems. DD is adamant that the antifreeze for their engines should not have the phosphates. That is also true of Cummins and CAT.
When we refer to manuals that are many years old, recall that technology changes and I suspect that is the case with antifreeze as noted above. When in doubt, I always check the DD (or CAT/Cummins) sites for the latest recommendations.
I recently bought DD Power Cool at a truck parts dealer for less than $14 as I recall (full strength). The difference in price between that and automotive antifreeze just does not justify the risk in my mind.
As long as I am on my soapbox, antifreeze should be tested periodically. The additives are sacrificial and need to be kept at the proper level. Earlier in this thread Sean listed a source for these strips. Note: the test strips have a shelf life, so get fresh ones.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on February 14, 2010, 07:48:03 AM
The main reason that I and other authors are writing these articles is to support Mike's "adventure". That way we can continue to have this great forum and an improving magazine. I am know that this sounds negative, but I really want Mike to succeed. Detroit Diesel must have changed their site. Here is the new link: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/Coolant-Selections.pdf
Thanks Jim. Chad, Phil and I trully appreciate your support and that of the many other people either directly supporting BCM or cheering us on. I don't want to send this excellent thread off topic, so I will just briefly share something I said in a PM I just sent to John since it applies equally to anyone with concerns.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on February 14, 2010, 07:46:05 AM
John,
I'll look it up and see that you get them. I apologize for the delay.
Unfortunately several balls got dropped around that time amidst the frantic pace of getting the January issue out at Christmas and the problematic run to Bussin' 10.
Anytime you have concerns about anything BCM, please don't hesitate to email or call me.
Thanks,
Mike
As a sidenote, in spite of the challenges we had on the trip, I am very glad we attended Bussin' 10. We enjoyed it and the help Raymond, Tom and Jack gave me after the rally with the coolant leak problem that developed was priceless.
Well folks,
I am not a expert on the above subject as I read the above posts regarding the correct anti freeze to use in our Detroit's.
Going back to the late 1950's when the Greyhound PD4104's and Scenicruiser were main line coaches and the power plants were 2-4/71's for the Scenicruisers and the 6/71 for the 4104's.
Greyhound used the green type of antifreeze and it was supplied by Texaco.
I wonder what the specs were back then for the Detroit's using antifreeze quite a bit different than today I bet.
I guess I am doing it all wrong but I use the green antifreeze that you buy from Wall-Mart and in all the years never had a problem with my 8V/71 in my P8M4905A.
I am going with Bryan and United Diesel mechanics idea in regards to what antifreeze that they recommend.
jlv :P
Well, I guess we can now add antifreeze to the list of subjects where we acknowledge that there are "believers" on both sides and have to agree to disagree ;) ;D.
Anytime I see a thread on oil or marine wire, I cringe. Now I will cringe when this subject comes up :) ;) ;D
Jim
Is it possible that these SCA's and cavitation only apply to a wet sleeve engine? Mine is a dry sleeve 8V-71 so as far as I understand there is no possibility of cavitation :-\
Bryan
Thats A BIG..BIG..10-4.. :-*
10-7
JOHN 8)
Quote from: rv_safetyman on July 27, 2009, 04:56:36 AM
Large diesel engines (including our DDC two and four stroke engines) require an antifreeze with special specifications. The primary specification is that it must have low silicates and Supplemental Cooling Additives (SCAs).
Automotive antifreeze that you buy at the cheaper automotive stores does not meet these specifications! If the incorrect antifreeze is used, excessive cavitation of the cylinder liners can result. Not all DDC engines have wet liners (where cavitation can result in engine failure if it breeches the liner wall), but it would still be good practice to use the correct antifreeze.
I have no idea what antifreeze is in my DD engine (8V92), so how do I test this, or must I simply drain it all out and be certain of the type of antifreeze?
I read about the test strips, but have never thought I needed to test, because the tester said it would not freeze. Are these strips for another purpose?
Also, is any damage done going to continue to do damage if the fluids are changed - in other words, will I have consequences in future miles as the reult of this?
Bryan, I can only pass on what has come up in previous threads. Because your 8V71 engine is dry sleeve, a few folks have commented that the cavitation issue is not as significant (some say not an issue at all).
DD does not make a distinction. At some point, the piston bore structure has to be exposed to the coolant. The issue becomes how much that structure dampens the vibration caused by the firing in the cylinder.
It is also argued that our buses don't see huge amounts of running hours and thus the rate of damage does not catch up with us.
Tom C had commented in another tread that he has seen engines where the cavitation has actually penetrated the liner in a very short time (something in the range of 100-200K miles as I recall). This information based on his employment with Freightliner.
As I always say, I am often "over the top" on some of these issues, but I do try to base my decisions/comments on PUBLISHED information and REASONABLE engineering thought processes where ever possible. When I review published information I always try to analyze what I am reading. Is it just marketing propaganda? Is it outdated? Does it make engineering sense? I did a ton of research on the subject when I wrote the article and I am convinced that this is a technical issue as opposed to a marketing scheme.
Perhaps I am sensitized a bit on this issue, as I THINK my Series 60 engine problem (seating of the liners) could be the result of incorrect antifreeze. Certainly, my liners had some significant cavitation.
Jim
So Jim, if i start a thread on whether i should use oil or antifreeze on my marine wire, that will probably put you over the edge huh? ;D ;D ;D
Define "edge".
Point of no return.
Are most of us in sight of the "edge" - either in front of us, or behind?
Guys use what ever you choose too but I can tell you for sure if using a Methyl Alcohol or the Methoxy Propanal based green antifreeze with a high % of silicate like you find sometimes at the box stores it will be head gasket time in about 1 year on a 92 or a 71 series
.Fwiw you need to change the green antifreeze every 2 years where the pre charged and long life antifreeze is good for 5 to 6 years
The 92 series engines don't have a cavitation problem but the liners will rust so use a rust inhibitor,balance your system and keep it balanced
good luck
Thanks, luv (Is that appropriate on Valentine's Day?)
Removed
Ed, you know darn good and well that I am already over the edge. What a terrible way to treat a guy on valentine's day :)
I forgot another issue that makes me cringe: "towing heavy trailers with my bus". Ed, you can add that to your list.
Keith, some folks say that using 3-way test strips (http://www.dieselmanor.com/docs/FG-teststrips.pdf (http://www.dieselmanor.com/docs/FG-teststrips.pdf)) will give you a pass/fail. I am not convinced of that. It looks to me like the test strips will tell you what is missing in terms of additives and what your protection level is, but it does not seem to test for things you don't want in your antifreeze.
For that you will have to have your antifreeze analyzed by a lab. That will give you a report of the physical properties as well as "wear metal, additives and other metal". The quote in the previous sentence comes from my antifreeze analysis report. I think most labs that analyze oil can also analyze antifreeze. I suspect most truck dealer locations will have the kit and can get that done for you. You can then compare the results to the DD recommendations in document I cited earlier.
I think the instructions are to take the sample when the antifreeze is warm. I could not do that, but I think the results are still valid. If you take the sample from the radiator drain, I would have a bucket under the drain and let the antifreeze run for a few seconds so that you are not getting abnormal sediment in the sample. You can add the drained fluid back in the filler tank when you are done.
Jim
Dallas, you owe me a keyboard!!!
Wow, you really hit the nail on the head. I hope that Bob and Brian don't get p#%^$# off :)
Jim
I guess I am looking at why it would hurt the DD 71? Is he liner steel? Also I am thinking about the use of our engines vs. commercial "Heavy Duty" use. And id the antifreeze is ok in say my old hot rod with a 440 in it and never rusted through a cylinder wall why would it rust through a sleeve on my 71? Is it a difference between cast and steel sleeve? Just trying to decipher this in my mind.
Why would there have not been anything in my manuals other than Ethylene-Glycol stated. The 8V-71 has been around since 1957. If all these additives were a big concern why would it have not been published in them?
Not trying to argue this point but the Detroit coolant selections info only says 53, 71, 92 as being important to use Power Cool or an equivalent. But it does not state wet or dry sleeve. I guess some things seem to be more marketing driven sales techniques. Maybe because I am a salesman I am skeptical ;D
Bryan
Jim,
I always say it is better to get p!$$ed off than p!$$ed on, ;D
I have a thick skin so I am good. I want to do what is best for my bus. But at the same time I have a DD article saying one thing, my manual showing another and then the techs at Detroit with 30+ years experience telling me green is fine. I would think they would be the first to tell me to buy the Power Cool as I would probably get it from them and they know it. Why would they turn away the buck? So you can see why this is a very debateable topic for me. I have no problem spending more money on certain things if I can see a benefit ;)
Bryan
Bryan, the issue is not one of corrosion, but rather, erosion. Cavitation is very complex. Take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation. Gas engines do not have an issue with cavitation in the cylinder walls. HD diesels do and the problem can damage the engine quickly.
I have tried to treat this subject lightly, but I am getting very frustrated! I spent a ton of time researching and documenting the subject with links to good resources. I did this so that we would not have to revisit this subject a bunch of times.
I don't mind folks second guessing my thoughts. However, I get frustrated when they do so without seeing my documentation. Here I am, again, spending a bunch of time to revisit what I spent a bunch of time presenting to BC magazine readers.
Think I will pull a BK (the real one) and take some time off and let others deal with this.
For those of you want to CONSTRUCTIVELY discuss my article, I will be glad to do so. There is a ton of room for me to learn from that discussion.
Jim
Quote from: rv_safetyman on February 14, 2010, 11:02:19 AM
I don't mind folks second guessing my thoughts. However, I get frustrated when they do so without seeing my documentation. Here I am, again, spending a bunch of time to revisit what I spent a bunch of time presenting to BC magazine readers.
You do have to realize that not everyone gets the magazine so we haven't all seen your research.
I need to check to be sure the stuff I've been using is okay for my Series 60. I have just been buying green coolant. I do add SCAs to the coolant as required after testing.
Jim,
I am not second guessing your thoughts. That is what makes us individuals and it is just that, your thoughts on information you have gleaned related to this subject. I also understand specifications as I work with them every day. But specs can also have varying alternates and equals that perform a similar end result.
I understand you have done your research on this but I have seen absolutely nothing distinguishing between wet or dry sleeve engines and the use of antifreeze type in the articles you just gave me. That was one of my main questions; Does this apply to a dry sleeved 8V71?
Bryan
Call me stupid, but I can't seem to drop this.
First of all, I paid $10.91 per gallon last month for DD Power Cool. Is it really worth all this drama to avoid doing it right???
Next, the reader has a few choices here when it comes to getting information on the subject:
1) Read what the OEMs recommend. All of the majors have the same recommendation.
2) Make your decision based on your source of choice. If it is contrary to what the OEMs recommend, then you are on your own.
3) Read the technical articles in BCM. The folks that write these articles have spent a lot of time doing the research and performing the work.
4) Spend hours on the internet doing your own research. When you are done, you can be the focal point of this and all the other redundant threads that will inevitably crop up.
For those of you who choose not to subscribe to BCM, then you will have to do without option 3 as your choice. You seem to be willing to ask folks who have taken the time to write the articles to spend a ton more time to answer your question and then you don't want to listen. I have spent several hours on this thread in the last two days and it is time I don't have. I have tried to patiently answer various questions, but there has to be a limit.
Bryan, what more of an answer do you want on the 8V71 than I gave you a few posts ago???? If you want to challenge DD and their technology, go for it.
Now most of you know why the folks with good technology have left this board.
I am out of here.
Jim
Removed
AMEN Jim you keep doing what your doing . I enjoy reading your post and have learned so much from your experiences .
Jim
Thanks for the info. I have seen the effects of cavitation in a loader at work. I am not smart enough to understand it all but will pay a few bucks for better antifreeze as I did for my oil.
John
Jim,
The skill and knowledge range among the board participants is quite wide. I appreciate learning from those I believe have the experience and/or research information that makes their input valuable. However, as I think Dallas was pointing out, you do not want to try to convince anyone of anything. Everyone will make their own decisions and live with the consequences. I guess I have been negligent in the coolant area. I believed that automotive antifreeze with an anti-cavitation addictive was okay, but it appears that there are other issues to be aware of. Clifford's warning about loosing head gaskets is one. I have not monitored the system with test strips and now have that on my list. I will probably start watching for deals on Power Cool or some other diesel coolant to have on hand. Thanks for the help.
How about we all make a deal? Whenever anyone, newbie or Sr. brings up oil weight, biofuel or coolant we just shrug our shoulders and smile...Jim don't do this to yourself again. We appreciate your input too much for you to leave over a self inflicted wound.
I think we all know that some of these issues will never be resolved and that's ok.
It's tough to watch these topics go up in smoke.
Feeling for you Jim.
RB
Jim,
I am catching up on this thread, so sorry I am late.
Here is the deal. Per your recommendation we went with the DD power cool (pink, extended life). I am unlike some of the others. When it comes to our engine, I don't mess around. Why? Because I am not as rich as some of the others on here, and I can't afford too many engines ;D (but then again, we run 15-40 in ours ;D). The biggest thing is that the others don't pull the newbies off track.
We don't mind spending some extra money, to save an engine (I just don't get the way some people do math ;D). You, and Clifford were the ones that probably saved us a ton of grief.
If others want to gamble with their engines...cool with me (I just feel bad for them).
Don't let the others pull you down. As they say, "There is a sucker born for every seat." ;)
God bless,
John
Per my previous post in regards to Greyhound and the old PD4104's and Scenicruiser coaches using the Texaco green antifreeze back in the late 50's.
Greyhound used the Perry water filters on their equipment back then and I read what I could find out about Perry Water Filters the filters solved the many problems dirt and scale in the system and it keep the antifreeze in a non acid neutral state also prevented cavitation in the engine coolant system passages.
So today why not install a Perry coolant filter on our engine coolant system and just buy the standard antifreeze and not have to worry about the high dollar antifreeze that Detroit and the other engine companies are selling? ???
Just a thought on my part :P
jlv
So that I was sure what I was talking about. I found no less than three locations including manufacturers that cited the difference between dry and wet sleeved engines and antifreeze required. Here is one of them.
Cylinder liners come in two designs - dry sleeved and wet sleeved. A dry sleeve is inserted into the engine block. The engine block has outer walls that contain the coolant around the cylinder so the dry sleeve slides inside that bore and the coolant never actually touches the cylinder liner itself. A wet sleeve is inserted into a block that does not have any outer cylinder wall. The coolant in the cylinder cooling jackets actually touches the cylinder liner itself. The liner has flanges and counterbores on it's outside diameter that are used to hold o-ring seals so that the coolant stays in the engine's water jackets and doesn't leak down into the engine's oil sump.
Typically dry sleeves are used on smaller engines while wet sleeves are used on larger engines. The reason for this is that larger engines create more heat and the wet sleeve does better job of conducting that cylinder heat to the coolant because the wet sleeve is in direct contact with the coolant. Engines like the 5.90 liter Cummins ISB use a dry sleeve while larger engines, like the 7.2 liter Cat C7 series and up, or the 8.3 liter Cummins ISC, 8.9 liter Cummins ISL, etc all use wet sleeves. Dry sleeves don't have as specific a need as the wet sleeve engines when it comes to coolants so if you have a Cummins ISB, you won't have to read any farther unless you're curious. The rest of this information applies to any RV owner with a wet sleeved diesel engine.
Pitting is a result of something best described as "cavitation". Wet cylinder liners are held in place in the engine block with o-ring seals and the clamping pressure of the cylinder head upon the upper flange of the liner. As the piston moves up and down there is also side to side force being exerted on the cylinder due to the throw of the crankshaft. This sideways forces causes these liners to vibrate back and forth. When the cylinder moves in one direction it moves away from the coolant, creating a small air bubble in it's wake. Eventually this air bubble bursts and the coolant, which is under pressure, bursts through and impacts the cylinder liner. This sudden jet of high pressure coolant can pit the liner, and if allowed to continue, will create a pinhole through it. Think of this action as giving you the same results as if you fired a pressure washer's meanest cleaning tip to your wooden sided house at point blank range. The results would be equally disastrous except all of this happens in microseconds in a diesel engine running at high RPM and it doesn't stop until you switch off the key.
Regular coolants just can't handle the effects of cavitation. They're fine for gasoline powered engines but then gasoline engines don't have the cavitation issue to deal with either so don't go stick Dexcool into your large diesel. Keep it for your passenger car or light truck. Cavitation needs the high compression ratios of a diesel engine with wet cylinder liners to begin. It's even greater on a cold engine because the increased slap creates more vibration. It's also greater at lower RPMs when lugging your engine that it is in a diesel engine that's revving. In order to counteract the effects of cavitation we need to use special coolants designed for wet sleeved diesel engines.
I guess if you have a dry sleeve such as mine you are probably fine with the Wal-Mart brand.
I also run the Perry water filter. My bus was ordered new with it and this is what is stated about a coolant filter:
What the Coolant Filter Does...
Coolant filters are used on most types of diesel engines. These filters help to maintain proper engine heat transfer by filtering solid contaminants from the coolant and by minimizing corrosion and deposits in the cooling system.
Properly installed and maintained, coolant filters help to provide:
A clean, well-functioning engine cooling system.
Proper engine heat dissipation.
Engine efficiency through improved heat conductivity.
Method to introduce necessary Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCA's) when required.
Coolant filters mechanically filter the coolant through a fine media, removing impurities such as sand and rust particles suspended in the cooling system. The coolant filter also conditions the coolant by softening the water to minimize scale deposits, maintains a neutral to slightly alkaline condition in the coolant, and prevents rust.
From what I have learned a dry sleeve engine with a coolant filter should be in good shape as long as it is changed out every 2-5 years based on the type you are using.
HTH anyone that was not FULLY understanding what I was trying to get at with a DRY SLEEVE engine. Cavitation is not possible!
Hopefully now this does not sound stupid or like someone being a sucker.
Bryan
I am officially shrugging my shoulders and smiling. ;D ;D ;D
"And that's all I have to say about that."
Forrest Gump
Quote from: roadrunnertex on February 14, 2010, 07:38:31 PM
So today why not install a Perry coolant filter on our engine coolant system and just buy the standard antifreeze and not have to worry about the high dollar antifreeze that Detroit and the other engine companies are selling? ???
Just a thought on my part :P
jlv
Simple...I don't want to take ANY chances with my engine. I am not like others who can afford a new engine. Just me, but I do NOT mess with the engine. I don't care what kind of fancy filters are out there. I just use the standard filter on ours, and run the recommended coolant through it. Honestly, I couldn't care a hoot less about saving 7 dollars a gallon, compared to risking (even very slightly) our engine. If you ask me, that is penny wise pound foolish.
For crying out loud, we are just talking about a pittance of seven dollars a gallon. Why not go for the best?
But, YMMV.
God bless,
John
Quote from: John316 on February 14, 2010, 09:41:08 PM
Quote from: roadrunnertex on February 14, 2010, 07:38:31 PM
So today why not install a Perry coolant filter on our engine coolant system and just buy the standard antifreeze and not have to worry about the high dollar antifreeze that Detroit and the other engine companies are selling? ???
Just a thought on my part :P
jlv
Simple...I don't want to take ANY chances with my engine. I am not like others who can afford a new engine. Just me, but I do NOT mess with the engine. I don't care what kind of fancy filters are out there. I just use the standard filter on ours, and run the recommended coolant through it. Honestly, I couldn't care a hoot less about saving 7 dollars a gallon, compared to risking (even very slightly) our engine. If you ask me, that is penny wise pound foolish.
For crying out loud, we are just talking about a pittance of seven dollars a gallon. Why not go for the best? What is it going to hurt? We are not even talking about hurting the wallet, for seven dollars. Now, what really hurts the wallet is your engine rebuild. If you want to take that chance, be my guest.
Oh, yes. If I was a diesel mechanic, that was looking out for mostly my own best interest, then of course I would tell you to run regular car anti-freeze. If I tell you to use that, then you will probably come in looking for a rebuild, and viola, I have more work.
Guy, go with what the manufacture says. Do you skip oil changes, because you think that you don't need to? When do you stop following the manufactures recommendations?
But, YMMV. It is your engine, and you can rebuild it if you want :D.
God bless,
John
Sorry, looks like this was a double post.
Brian, a couple of things before I hang up my hat on this topic that over the years I have seen the cheap antifreeze cause a lot of oil cooler,radiator, heater core, and head gasket problems.
Every 71 series that I have tore down that the owner hasn't taken care of his system using a cheap antifreeze the 71 series has to be bored to remove the hot spots where the bubbles (cavitation) have been trapped against the outside wall that make for a costly rebuild.
If the Wal-Mart stuff fits you needs go for it I have no problem with what you use , but a water filter will not take care of your system alone.
The green stuff comes in all different flavors choose the right one or it is heartbreak hotel down the road
Now you guys want to talk about OIL lol
good luck
I just made my yearly trip to W.W.Williams In Phoenix and was shocked at their prices. A 10 pack of coolant test strips $4.33. A case of full strength engine coolant $8.69 a gallon.They also had Shell rotella- t at $11.89 a gallon. I have always used DD collant and at these prices why go anywhere else.
Don
Yup Don I buy antifreeze at WW Williams also the cheapest I found I also buy my filters there when they have their special in the spring comes in a 3 filter pack oil filter and 2 fuel filters for 22 bucks a good deal.
good luck
Quote from: rip on February 15, 2010, 04:49:39 AM
I just made my yearly trip to W.W.Williams In Phoenix and was shocked at their prices. A 10 pack of coolant test strips $4.33. A case of full strength engine coolant $8.69 a gallon.They also had Shell rotella- t at $11.89 a gallon. I have always used DD collant and at these prices why go anywhere else.
Don
Is this the Pink coolant? I will say i am guilty of the cheap stuff because of being in a pinch to add some and have probably added about a gallon(plus distilled water) over the years to top off.
However the cheap stuff is the same price as the WW stuff you mention here. What did you get here ???
Also does anybody know if The DD pink stuff is the same as the VW pink stuff(G25 i think)?
they went to pink to address aluminum issues. At this price I will consider using pink stuff in all my vehicles.
The old 7.3 boys stick with the cheap green stuff to avoid silicates(IIRC) and the extended life stuff that causes so many issues. But that was in the orange stuff and now in green stuff too.
Now if my pea brain translated this thread correctly.
for 8V71 - use pink stuff and SCA and filter is good too if you have one
What color dye should I use to turn my green stuff pink? I tried red dye but it turned purple. Is purple good for stopping cavities on a 6-71?
:-\
Boy I am confused now. ???
Back many many years ago Southwestern Greyhound Lines were running 6/71's in their equipment in the winter they would leave the buses running this was in Amarillo,Texas by the way and the reason was to keep the cooling systems from freezing up as they had no antifreeze in the system.
Orders were if a bus broke down and you could not keep the engine running was to drain the system to prevent dammage to the engine and cooling system.
The above information is from a book by Howard Suttle a retired Greyhound driver called Behind the Wheel on RT 66 Chapter: No Antifreeze page 197.
So perhaps Southwestern Greyhound Lines maintenance had the problem solved way before our time by not using Green Antifreeze in their Detroits just plane old tap water.
Interesting folks.
jlv
Still shrugging and smiling, shrugging and smiling.
Rick
Yes it the pre -charged pink stuff.I do buy all my filters there.
Clifford,
So are you saying that because of cavitation the outside wall of the cylinder bore was penetrated between it and the sleeve?
Thanks,
Bryan
I'm like Rick Smiling. THE BOOK I Have has three pages on which type of antifreeze to use and what inhibitors to use and not use.
John
My understanding of cavitation:
When the diesel fuel ignites in the cylinder, it rapidly increases the pressure inside the cylinder. This creates the 'ringing' that vibrates the liner & the coolant at the surface cavitates when it can't move as fast as the liner does.
If the mass of the liner increases (thicker wall), the vibration intensity goes down & cavitation is reduced.
A friend was using spec antifreeze in his powerstroke Ford & lost 2 engines due to cavitation. They finally realized there was a problem with core shift in the engine blocks & it was the thin side of the cylinder wall where the cavitation was most active.
In summary,
Cavitation can be an issue in any diesel engine - the dry liner engines may be more resistant (due to thicker wall ? ), but are not immune.
Cavitation can happen in a gas engine when it 'spark knocks', but usually the piston fails before the cavitation can do any significant damage. :o
If you are going to deviate from the manufacturers current specifications, you should at least know (not guess) why the manufacturer chose those specs.
(I have worked at many dealerships & repair shops, It may suprise you at what their motivation was behind the advice given to customers. :( )
That is why I am so skeptical. . . .
Hey Jim,
Another highly contentious subject is the use of never seize on lug nuts.
Let's not forget the impact wrench vs torque wrench debate either! ;D
Good luck with educating the unwilling ;)
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him THINK ! ;D
You know what they say about winning an internet argument - it's like winning in the special Olympics. . . . . you still are what you were.
I have used the green stuff for years and My dentist still charges Me to fix cavities! What gives anyway, should I shift to a different color or just use salt and tap water? The shadow wants to know! John L
Jim's article on antifreeze can be downloaded in the Sept 2009 issue of Bus Conversions magazine for only $5.
Quote from: belfert on February 15, 2010, 07:50:21 PM
Jim's article on antifreeze can be downloaded in the Sept 2009 issue of Bus Conversions magazine for only $5.
ARTICLE!!!!!!! :o ???
Like Hugh's mag, I just get it for the pictures :D ;D
I guess I am having a problem with letting this go. Especially with the comments that continued to insult my intelligence. And some by folks that don't even have a bus running down the road. If you have something that is related to what the conversation is and something to back up what you are talking about then by all means speak up. But if it is no more than a comment about leading horses to water or a smart @$$ comment then you should probably keep it to yourself. This is in part why people get ticked off.
Because I did not write an article does not mean my research is any less correct than the next guy. Just different results.
Let me state that my only question was in regards to the 8V-71 antifreeze requirement.
I did speak with two different Detroit dealers, techs, service managers and a bus company that has been in business for over 30 years running 8V-71 & 92's. They run 15 buses currently.
I even looked at a torn down 8V-71 that was being rebuilt and had the mechanic that has been working on 8V-71's since the 60's in Vietnam on tanks and still does for United Engines to this day. He is regarded as the most knowledgeable 8V-71 tech in the entire company.
This is what every single one told me including the bus company.
A good off the shelf Sams Club Green Antifreeze can be run in them with no problem because they are a dry sleeve!!
If you have ever seen an 8V-71 torn down you would see that you have about 1/2" of meat between the cylinder and sleeve. It was even explained to me that the only 71's that had a cavitation problem were from running Pond water in them. He had only seen a couple over the last 40 years.
And if you have HOT SPOTS in the cylinder liner and need to hone it out it is NOT from cavitation.It is from improper fit of the sleeve to begin with not allowing the heat to dissipate evenly. Cavitation can not be honed out. How do you hone out a hole in a cylinder wall?
So in my research I think I will take the words of wisdom from the guys that do this every day for a living and have seen first hand on an 8V-71 what works and what does not. They all said keep your antifreeze clean and changed out every five years or so and it will be fine. With over 100 years of combined experience of the techs, service managers and fleet owners. I think my antifreeze will be fine.
Jim,
In keeping this fair to you I was not questioning your research. I did miss your initial post about what some have told you about dry sleeve engines, so I apologise for continuing on with you about the 8V-71. I only wanted what pertained to my 8V-71. If you are running a series 60 or one that does not have the large cylinder walls and is not a dry sleeve as a 71 then you should follow the recommendations that Jim has posted and that was confirmed by the techs and service managers as well.
As to anyone else that has commented about this questioning my intelligence and ability to learn! When you have the experience to know what you are talking about on this subject, (say 20-30-40 yrs. and not your couple years of owning a bus) maybe that is when you should speak up because the other comments don't help anyone!
Bryan
Quote from: bryanhes on February 17, 2010, 10:35:51 AM
When you have the experience to know what you are talking about on this subject, (say 20-30-40 yrs. and not your couple years of owning a bus) maybe that is when you should speak up because the other comments don't help anyone!
Bryan
Well, I guess that rules me out.... :-X In that case, I should be silent.
God bless,
John
Jim, I think that you "could" divide the coolant selection process into different engine models.
It's not just certain Detroit engines that are more prone. In the late 90's Cat had failures with liners sinking with the 3406E.. Texaco and CAT campaigned with the "RED" coolant. Warranties were denied on the spot if there was "green" coolant. At the same time the "main" liner plant had a fire on the production line. Mahle stepped in and took over the production. The new liners were found to be cracking due to over-hardening in the heat treatment process. Can you imagine the trucker that just had to shell out his dollars for repairs only to come back and do it all over again. There was alot of finger pointing going on.
I am running a late model year 2002 Series 60 and I do not want the liner corrosion/erosion and will run the Detroit spec coolant. I also have a 6V92 in my MCI. I run the same factory coolant in both engines..
I think folks with 8V71 can run whatever you want.
Bryan, you should leave it alone some what of you just posted is BS about the hot spots on a 71 series.
I dealt with United for years some good some bad they rebuilt a engine for me and it made it to Memorial drive from their shop before they had to call Williams wrecker.
I saw that happen to Roy Clarks Eagle also they rebuilt but he made it to Riverside dr before Williams had to pick him up.
I don't put a lot of faith in those guys but I do like the parts guy from New York.
I am not telling you not to use the green stuff just use the right one or you will pay for it later.
And FWIW the best 2 stroke guy I found in that part of the world is in the little town of Coweta Ok he put United to shame
good luck
Bryan,
To pull a quote from Stripes - "lighten up, Francis" - without some clowning around there'd be no color & then it'd be too boring to read. Ya can't read much after you've nodded off. :o
My idea of research involves controlled data, otherwise, how do you know what really caused the results.
Asking bar patrons how many drinks is OK before turning in your car keys will generate different data than if you asked EMS responders, or police, or lawyers. . . . ::)
Quite a bit heard at dealerships & service facilities is hearsay which renders all of it questionable. That is not to say it is all bad - just you have to look into it further & get confirmation from different sources (not like sources as in other dealerships & service centers). The service manual & factory tech support are different sources than the dealer.
(just like responses to posts here - some make sense & others should be ignored.) ;)
You said cavitation can't happen in a 71 series. I maintain that while it isn't likely, it could happen.
While hot spots are usually caused by poor fits - cavitation can also cause it in dry liners. But short of having the exact measurements at that exact spot from when the liner was installed & comparing those numbers with an inspection of the water side of the hole - it is hard to know for certain.
One of my manuals (for a PD4501 with an 8V71) says to run clean water in the summer & when freezing is a concern to add alcohol. It also had instructions for when to use the filter & when to bypass it.
Education & experience are what you make of it.
Time spent often means little more than the opportunity was there. . .
The degree itself isn't necessarily worth the paper it's printed on.
I hope you have many many happy & trouble free miles down the road in your coach.
Clifford,I was not basing this on United Engines more so the guy that I have been talking to there has worked on these since before the Vietnam era. And the man that has owned the bus charter company for 30 years. Neither one were selling me anything just letting me pick their brain and giving me their experience with these engines. You have obviously seen many of these torn down. I saw a bare block on Monday for the first time. I would think it would take a miserable amount of time and no maintenance of the cooling system at all to have the action of cavitation make it through the side of the cylinder wall (which appears to be about 1/2"-5/8" thick) to make a hole. I guess anything is possible.
Kyle,I did not say it can't happen. I said:
QuoteIt was even explained to me that the only 71's that had a cavitation problem were from running Pond water in them. He had only seen a couple over the last 40 years.
I am not bothered by many things and enjoy being a smart @$$ sometimes. But I have a problem taking someones comments on a subject when that person has no more knowledge than I do. I did what I feel was due diligence researching this for my engine.
They did not have all these additives years ago when Greyhound, Trailways etc.. were running these down the road for millions of miles. So why do I have to run it now? The ASTM Standard was not published until Oct 1, 2008. The Coolant Selection from Detroit was not published from what I can find until 2001. I guess it makes sense to me that if it was required on my engine Detroit would have recommended it and changed the formulation of antifreeze in the 60's or 70's. If anyone has anything dating back into the 70's mentioning special antifreeze for an 8V-71 please post it. It makes the most sense to me that cavitation addressing additives more so arose from problems with the thinner sleeves and more horsepower of newer engines. As with most things that have changed in the manufacturing process so has metal thickness and quality of steel products. I do understand corrosion is corrosion. The only thing that I think would differentiate the rate at which it happens between the two types of engines (wet/dry) is the types of metals and thickness contributing to the rate of breakdown, whether it is with straight water, regular old Ethylene Glycol or something with additives.
I know my bus has had regular Ethylene Glycol antifreeze in it since 1970 with the Perry filter on it and from service records changed out about every 5-6 years. I have pulled lines and seen no scale. On a 98 degree day with the coach air running it never gets over 180-190. It is the original radiator as well.
If I have missed something about a certain kind of antifreeze from circa. 1970 please let me know. Otherwise I will continue with what has worked for the last 40 years on my bus.
Bryan
Bryan
Some of us as you pointed out, have owned a bus less than 10 years.
But we have been on this bus blog long enough to know "hot button" issues when we see them. It doesn't have nearly as much to do with you as it does with the subject. There are 3-5 subjects that most of us here just decide are not worth the effort of discussing. You, my friend, whether you are aware of it or not, are in one right now. This is not the first heated discussion about antifreeze and it probably won't be the last.
Bryan, in truth nobody here really gives a rip if you run battery acid in your radiator because we live in a free country. You asked a question and Jim answered it. Then you disagreed with him and he disagreed with you. He isn't trying to pass a law that makes you change your antifreeze. End of story.
Meanwhile we're all sitting back going "Here we go again" somebody's gonna say a bunch of stuff they don't mean and then they're gonna leave and I hope that isn't what happens with you.
But be careful here, when your words turn from disagreeing with, to disrespecting the guys that have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to the majority of people here that they care about us and that they know what they're talking about well, then you're on your own.Those folks are highly valuable and highly valued by the majority of us here.
I'm sorry if you took my words to be inflammatory but I was speaking about the unresolvable subject not you. Go and look at the archives of arguments about oil viscosity, antifreeze and politics and religion and see if you don't see a pattern.
I've been where you are right now,heck alot of us have been where you are right now.
Stop take a breath, climb down from the ledge and realize we just disagree... that's all nothing more
Rick
"thinner sleeves and more horsepower of newer engines"
That right there goes a long way to explain why the newer engines require more from the antifreeze.
In an ideal world, engines are designed based on what is available. Sometimes, the design isn't good enough for existing coolants or oils - this is determined by studying failures & sometimes remedied by an improved coolant or oil. If that special coolant or oil enables the engine to last a reasonable time, it becomes part of the specification & the manufacturer takes that into consideration with later designs.
Sometimes marketing & politics get involved & nothing makes any sense anymore. ::) That may explain why an engine designed in the 30's (with a proven track record) would get a new specification for coolant 70+ years later.
A funny thing about corrosion is that the higher stressed a piece of metal is, the faster it corrodes.
Quote from: bryanhes on February 17, 2010, 01:28:57 PM
I would think it would take a miserable amount of time and no maintenance of the cooling system at all to have the action of cavitation make it through the side of the cylinder wall (which appears to be about 1/2"-5/8" thick) to make a hole. I guess anything is possible.
I have seen new liners in Kawasaki L/115 loader go due to cavitation within one year. We learned the lesson about PH control.
John
Well, things have settled down and I thought I would write a special note to Bryan.
Bryan, please understand that some of those comments were directed towards other posters as well. I did not want to have the thread get personal, but when the subject is debated, that often happens.
My frustration was not that you (and others) were disputing me (I always encourage CONSTRUCTIVE corrections to my thought process), it just seemed that you were wanting to argue the point without really looking at the data that I based my comments on. I always try to present sources that I base my comments on. All I ask is the posters respond with sources so that we can understand where they are coming from.
You have done just that. You ultimately did quite a bit of research since this thread started. One of your posts basically supported the information I found as well. What you posted agreed with the OEM position that HD diesel antifreeze should be used on engines with wet sleeves. So we agree on that. What was in contention was whether diesel antifreeze was needed in dry sleeve engines. You have found information that suggests it is not required.
What folks are uptight about is the poster who just wants to prove that black is white. We have all seen them and most of us do not tolerate them well. For a while, it looked to me that you might be going down that road and I lost it. For example when you confused corrosion with erosion and talked about a gas engine, it looked argumentative to me. Turns out that you were indeed trying to understand the subject and find an answer to your specific engine.
Now with all that said, I am not sure that the $3-4 difference is worth the possible risk. However, you have done the RESEARCH that allows you to make an informed decision.
So, as I said earlier, we will add this to the list of the "OH NO NOT THAT SUBJECT AGAIN" and take a chill pill before we even think about becoming involved ;D
Jim
Well
The good news is now each person that reads this will think about what to use and make there own informed decision.
Thanks all
John