So here's the story. I may have found a good parts bus (mci 7) that may have a bad tranny. It's about 50 miles from where I live, and there are 2 lane blacktop routes that would connect with minimal traffic. Assuming I have air for brakes/suspension and have pulled the axles, is there any reason not to tow it with another truck/ bus? Has anyone done this and have good advice? Obviously, I'm trying to save money here but safety is number one. Thanks!
Glenn
I don't see a problem as a Eagle owner they came from the factory with a tow bar bracket on the front and a place to air the system up to tow 3 axles down Trailways did for years good luck
Glenn, I would advise against it.
You have to have a real good connection between the two vehicles.
You are talking a lot of weight here to stop fast if something goes wrong.
And what happens IF all of a sudden the brakes lose air and lock up!
Shop around; a handful of hundred dollar bills beats the risks involved.
Jack
I don't see a problem as long as you can supply air to the towed. Stay off the main roads and travel at off peak hours. I don't know about your country but where I come from an "F" (farm) plate means you can tow anything that isn't nailed down at both ends and tow it whenever and wherever you want to. Got any farmer friends?
I have done similar. My technique is to let the "towed: vehicle stop both rigs. At stops for any reason and for modest down hills use only the big guy's brakes. That procedure keeps the chain taunt so there isn't any crash bang for starts and stopping stuff. A handy talkie link between the two drivers or agreed to hand signals are a must.
You Can Do It!!!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
HTH,
John
Depends a bunch on who is towing and who is being towed and how well they understand what needs to happen, and when. Good communication is a must.
Never tried it with anything this big but a much easier way to tow is with a chain run through a pipe. Take out all the slack and bolt the chain on. No jerks, no slack chain, the tow rig can stop the towed. Otherwise known as a redneck tow bar.
Take it easy and slow.
Good luck
Don 4107
I don't see why not. If you have good brakes and drive real slow, even if it takes a couple of hours, it should work. I'm not sure about using a chain though, you might try a real heavy duty two strap. I have one, haven't used it yet though. It was donated to me, sure hope I don't have to try it out!
You wouldn't believe what I see being towed here in the great state of Texas. Of course it's wide open anywhere you drive for hundreds of miles in any direction! ;D
Paul
If I were to do this, I'd enlist the help of a good friend who I have towed with before. For air, I'd either use the towing bus' air or a genset/compressor or perhaps the bus itself depending on it's condition. I can tell it's been parked for a while, but I have not spoken to anyone yet to know more about it. Communication is definitely a must between two vehicles of this size, so I'd us CB or some walkie talkies. Thanks for the info everyone!
Glenn
Tenor; I have pulled a lot of heavy equipment on the road by using chains and piping. hook two chains on the bus and put the pipe on them, and form like a V to the "tower" even if you go around the hitch and back to the coach and then secure them in place. This act like a trailer hitch if you catch what I mean? Make sure you have enough slack between so you can see what he is doing LOL.
Gomer
Glen,
I would use a nylon 40,000# rated "snatch stap". They are much more forgiving than chains. If no snatch strap is available, my second choice would be a heavy cable. Jack
I'm with Jack and the elastic strap. I have towed buses with them before and the strap absorbs all the misdirected energy for a real smooth tow. Just don't hook around any sharp edges.
Jack, NJT,
My buddy has a tow strap, but I forget the rating. I'll find out. If it's too small, I'll but the 40k model, since I need one anyway. They are the way to go. Thanks for the reminder about sharp edges!
Glenn
To reinforce what was stated above, it takes 2 drivers - one in each vehicle. Each should know what he/she is doing. Long chain/strap, not a short one (or two).
The pipe to keep the chain fairly taught is a good idea, but if you use a strap, be sure it doesn't cause the strap to fray or cut.
The towing vehicle provides the force, the towed vehicle provides the braking.
The way I read the original post, the transmission is bad, which implies the engine runs. If this is true, the towed vehicle could supply its own air. Communication is key - in addition to the walkie/talkies (not cellphones), agree on an emergency horn communication - including a "stop immediately".
However, remember the slogan used in many transportation industries .... "If you can't do it safely, don't do it."
When I was a young and new bus driver, I lost a blower driveshaft in the middle of the busiest intersection in town (fortunately, a small city) - on my last trip. The guy who came out to get me was known as a wildman, and he towed me in on a short chain from a pickup truck - about 8 miles. Of course, I ran out of air pretty soon, and had to bring it in on the handbrake (TDH-4512). Not a fun trip, but it gave me something I use today when I teach scheduling courses... "the only time I was ever late on my last trip was when I broke down".
Arthur
>>It's about 50 miles from where I live, and there are 2 lane blacktop routes that would connect with minimal traffic.<<
Not on my dime or life. I did this kind of thing with U-Haul for short moves of less than 20 miles or so. My buddies did longer trips pullling the little Toyota trucks behind the big ones, and one got caught. He got let off, so that only emboldened us more. Of course, now that I'm 41, I guess I'm not into pulling stunts like this. Fifty miles?? It may be done safely, but then again...even if so.. Aren't you talking something like over 50,000 pounds combine weight with two drivers on a narrow road? This isn't a rig set up as a proven unit controlled by one operator, with no delay in communication, IE trailer with trailer brakes. (Small trailers or 4 down toads excepted..I don't even like tow dollies). Suppose one of you drops the walkie talkie while steering or braking?
And just suppose... everything was going perfectly(Quite probable just to show you I'm not completely close minded here..it may be flat and straight enough), and some do-gooder gets stuck behind you for a mile, 2-3 minutes, gets fed up (Very good chance) and has a cell phone?
What are you going to tell the police? Your boss made you do it? Worst case? What about the chance of a breakdown on the part of the towing rig, or collision? Well, at least the parts bus is there. What's the cost of an emergency roadside tow vs something planned?
I'd probably be tempted to do it for a short 2-10 mile tow, but every mile increases the risk of failure, IMNSHO. Good luck.
Doug
I have pushed an Eagle bus with a 1/2 ton chevy pu. I would recomend a 3/4 ton if I had a choice. Communications is nice, but not necessary. The man in front does all the steering and stopping. When the pusher sees stop lights he quits pushing. I HAVE DONE THIS FOR AT LEAST 5 MILES.
REWARD
This assumes the engine runs in the bus. Without the engine, you could rig a generator and air compressor, but what about the power steering? That could be a big problem.
Glenn,
Do you have a towing policy for your bus? If not I'd get one through coach-net for $110 and let them tow it. Lots of peace of mind for a little cost.
Buying a roadside assistance policy knowing you need to use it at the time of purchase is unethical and probably constitutes fraud. Roadside assistance providers are counting on only a small percentage of customers ever using the assistance.
Coach Net can be picky on what they pay for, but a blown tranny shouldn't be an issue. When I lost prime changing fuel filters they basically said tough luck as they wouldn't pay for it. Luckily, I figured out there is a priming button before I had to call a mobile mechanic out. The guy at Coach Net seemed to indicate they wouldn't pay for lack of maintenance items like siezed wheel bearings due to not repacking them. I think they don't want to end like AAA where a lot of people buy the service instead of paying to keep up their vehicle.
When I had AAA, they would not pick up a disabled vehicle that you just bought. I would not expect any policy to do that, and like you say Belfert, it could constitue fraud and I don't want our community to get a bad rap!
Glenn
I believe Coach Net has a 24 hour waiting period, but that could be the Good Sam plan. I don't know that there are any other restrictions on how long you have owned the vehicle.
I bought my Good Sam plan a day or two before I flew out to pick up my bus. I wanted to make sure I was covered from day one and I already had all the information they needed on the vehicle. I have since switched to Coach Net.
Well, what the heck...
I am somewhat torn as to a correct responce.
If there was a time of day/week that the 50 miles could be traveled under extremely light traffic conditions, and both drivers had some experience in these matters, I am supportive.
That being said, I would be traveling at a GREATLY reduced speed from the limit, the towing apparatus must not be in a configuration that will allow it to drag on the ground, and both vehicles must be able to stop themselves without incident or seat soiling, if they come apart. And they better be configured so that they do not come apart.
As for speed/tow mule, I'd be real temped to use the farm tractor, operating at an economical engine RPM.
And get out of the way at the earliest opportunity to allow the other road users to get on with their day.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The Towing policies usually have some limitations such as towing only to
an approved service provider or factory/dealer location.
There is also a limit on what they will pay the participating towing company and that is usually a negotiated rate well below regular retail. The tow drivers don't get very exited when their labor or distance exceeds the stated rates.
So, Generally it's $175 to $400 to hook up or load and $4.00 to $5.00 per loaded mile and/or hourly rates that can be from $30 and Hour to $75 an hour.
Rates do change if you have to get a second wrecker to help load or if you manage to aggravate the tow driver.
People Like CN are wise to the tricks that members try to pull and they can inflict some radical policy shifts if they think something doesn't sound just proper.
They like most providers may not have any tow companies within a reasonable distance or not at all. That happened to me on I-95 in Georgia one night. They simply had nobody within range so proceeded to do nothing at all but say sorry...
Buses and Large Coaches are special vehicles and take special equipment and trained operators. Any hack can drive a tow truck but only a pro can do it the right way most of the time.
If it don't run and has questionable running gear, brakes or other problems, Then the Landoll approach is the ONLY option short of calling the scrap yard.
You take your chances no matter what the situation and providing that you have an otherwise runnable/drivable coach with working brakes and lights you might get away with doing it the cheap way.
I pulled a 56 Dodge school bus with a 72 Pinto back in 1973 and that was a 40 mile tow through Orlando.. A really nice Nylon rope and lots of luck but never again.
That said, Just about any Superduty Ford or Dodge 3500 should be able to pull a bus fairly well at low speeds if you have good brakes and air to run the suspension. Power steering will only work if you have air assist or can run the engine. Otherwise it may take 2 people at the wheel to make turns the hard way.
...DUH....
I'll know much more tomorrow when I call about the bus. I am hopeful :
1. that they would just like to get it off the property ;D
2. It runs
3. it builds air and fills the suspension and brakes work.
4. My buddy with his F-250 with powerstroke diesel and duallies is willing to help pull using snatch straps
If all of these things come true, I'd use snatch straps, speeds at about 25mph (the route would be at most 55 posted with only 2 small towns, each a few blocks long)
Glenn
Don't know if this will inspire you to give it a try, or scare you completely off:
When I worked for an international moving company in England many moons ago one of our European trucks broke down in Germany with a bad transmission. Because the engine ran and the brakes and steering still worked OK, the boss decided to tow it back to England with the company Range Rover (back when they only had 3.5 liter engines)! The truck was a 2-axle DAF towing a 2-axle drawbar trailer, fully loaded and grossing about 25 tons. I took about three days and nights, with the Range Rover in first gear the whole way, all through Germany, Holland, the overnight truck ferry across the North Sea, and 80 rolling miles in England. He used a rigid tow bar, and used the truck's brakes to slow/stop. The German Polizei weren't amused, and he needed help getting up the ramp off the ferry, but he made it safely but slowly. Because CBs were illegal in Europe they had to use horn codes - one toot for stop, two for go.
Morale of the story: anything's possible, and it can be safe if you think through all the eventualities.
John
Tenor...you have few choices as per posts.
If you want tow without the worrying of slacking & jerking such as tow rope or chain. Use a solid rod or thick wall pipe to connect both tow-err & tow vehicle. This method will make both vehicles into one train. Connection can be a chain at both ends of the pipe. Whatever you do...make sure you use at least 5/16 inch or heavier chain and largest diameter grade 5 bolts thorough link to bind the chain together with sae washer & double nuts. The bottom-line is to keep the slack to zero movement as much as possible to avoid jerking.
This rig works like a regular tow bar except it a single bar that need second driver to steer.
Now have your helper to keep watching for your brake light for stopping or slowing down.
Communication is vital so if anything go wrong such as no air pressure.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
when my starter died in Florida a couple of years ago they towed my mc-5 80 mi. to get fixed. my 4104 was listed on the policy. tow truck drivers don't care, they don't check vin #'s. I don't see a problem with fraud since their towing a bus you own cause that's what you pay them for. I'm pretty sure they limit you to 1 tow a year. Your home is probably a heck of a lot closer than a QUALIFIED repair shop if it's something you could normally repair yourself.
Either way you decide to go let me know if you need an extra set of hands, I'd be happy to help.
I would be concerned about the truck pulling the bus. Calculate up the weight of the bus, and see if the truck could pull it uphill from a dead stop. If it is all down hill might be different ;D.
Let us know what you do. I am sure you can do it without a tow truck.
God bless,
John
Quote from: John316 on July 27, 2009, 05:47:49 AM
I would be concerned about the truck pulling the bus. Calculate up the weight of the bus, and see if the truck could pull it uphill from a dead stop. If it is all down hill might be different ;D.
Let us know what you do. I am sure you can do it without a tow truck.
God bless,
John
Amen!
Quote from: Damn Yankee on July 27, 2009, 03:10:33 AM
when my starter died in Florida a couple of years ago they towed my mc-5 80 mi. to get fixed. my 4104 was listed on the policy. tow truck drivers don't care, they don't check vin #'s. I don't see a problem with fraud since their towing a bus you own cause that's what you pay them for. I'm pretty sure they limit you to 1 tow a year. Your home is probably a heck of a lot closer than a QUALIFIED repair shop if it's something you could normally repair yourself.
Either way you decide to go let me know if you need an extra set of hands, I'd be happy to help.
The fraud is signing up for a roadside assistance policy knowing you already need to use the service. It would be no different than your house burning down and then buying an insurance policy for the house without telling them the house is already gone and then trying to collect.
If you buy a roadside assistance policy and your vehicle breaks down the next day, no problem, but if the vehicle is already broken down, no dice.
I have heard of somone who was able to buy roadside assistance from Good Sam for a vehicle that was already broken down and Good Sam towed it, but they were up front about the vehicle needing a tow. I hve no idea why Good Sam agreed to it.
Quote from: Sojourner on July 27, 2009, 05:58:34 AM
Quote from: John316 on July 27, 2009, 05:47:49 AM
I would be concerned about the truck pulling the bus. Calculate up the weight of the bus, and see if the truck could pull it uphill from a dead stop. If it is all down hill might be different ;D.
Let us know what you do. I am sure you can do it without a tow truck.
God bless,
John
Amen!
Hopeful that F-250 is manual trans to avoid overheating.
Vehicle Drive Calculations (http://www.womack-machine.com/pdf/rb365/10p352.pdf)
Example: Grade Resistance is the drawbar pull
needed to keep the vehicle in constant
motion up a grade. This is in addition to the
drawbar pull to overcome road resistance as
expressed by another formula.
F = GR × W
F is drawbar pull in pounds.
GR is grade resistance in percent
(20% is written as 0.20, etc.)
W is gross vehicle weight in pounds
PLUS Rolling resistant:
Drawbar Pull to keep the vehicle in steady
motion on level ground depends on the road
surface. The following figures are pounds of
drawbar pull per 1000 lbs. of vehicle weight.
Concrete . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 to 20 lbs.
Asphalt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 to 22 lbs.
Macadam . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 37 lbs.
Cobbles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55 to 85 lbs.
Snow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 to 37 lbs.
Dirt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 to 37 lbs.
Mud . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 to 150 lbs.
Sand . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 to 300 lbs.
Add gravel for payload to increase traction.
Wish you well.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
So I know a little more now about the condition. According to the director of the academy, the pressure plate cracked and it has been parked for about 3 years. He is going to have their mechanic call me for further questions later this week. It did continue to run well. So, we'll see!
And I got a quote from the towing company behind my house of 200-250, assuming I have pulled the axles and can air it up. That sounds like a no-brainer! I was expecting twice that amount or more!
Glenn
I'd slap $300 in the tow truck OPERATOR's hands and thank him by telling him "I don't need no change!"
JMHOFWIW!
Don't get me wrong, I'm a cheap skate by nature, but It's well worth $300 to have an uneventful experience! (of course I wouldn't pay up front just in case!)
;D BK ;D
I'm with BK on this (especially the cheap part ;) )
Sitting for 3 years. . . . . That'd make me very nervous as to the condition of seals & air lines.
Do your homework & verify the bus airs up & rolls before you schedule a tow, you don't want to pay the tow driver his rate to do the things you can!
I used a generator & a portable air compressor to air up one that had been sitting for 10+ years.
You'll be happiest with a Landoll trailer, you won't have to worry about the tires, or air lines, or airbags, or etc during the trip.
(A inside dual tire failure can take out the airbags before you know it lost air.)
Those tow truck drivers MOVE! They don't waste any time going down the road, so if on the hook, your tires better be up to the task!
Landoll tows around here (south east) run from $75 to $125 per hour the truck is away from the shop. So the quote you got is right in line.
The hook tow trucks are ~25% more & some won't even hook up to an old bus. . . .
Did you explain how old the bus is, where it is, how long its been sitting? These things may have an impact on getting it towed. You don't want to pay them just to come out & say "we don't do that". :(
About the debate over using roadside assistance to pay for towing something you bought knowing it needed towing - I'm surprised there is anything to discuss. We should all know the difference between right & wrong . . . . & where deception belongs.
Oh yeah, about recommending using a vehicle rated for 12,500# gcvw to move a 30,000# 'trailer' 50 miles . . . . Not on MY life! Moving that off the road or short distances is one thing, but when you get to double digit miles, the odds of burning up something move too close to a sure thing. :(
Quote from: luvrbus on July 25, 2009, 06:32:26 PM
I don't see a problem as a Eagle owner they came from the factory with a tow bar bracket on the front and a place to air the system up to tow 3 axles down Trailways did for years good luck
As I understand it from an old Eagle employee, the tow bar was only used to move gliders around the plant.
You might also want to check state laws about towing with straps, chains or make shift tow bars. Having the law stop you along the way only to tell you that you cannot move it any further until it is done properly and also give you a ticket for improper towing could possibly be more expensive than just doing it correctly the first time. And then there is the safety issue is the vehicle should get out of control on you.
I agree with you belfert. I guess my point is if Glenn doesn't have a roadside assistance policy maybe he should consider one long term not just for this one instance. I would not be without one.
Ya, what BK said, sounds like a heck of a deal with no liability.
Yeah Bob you are right. I need to put a towing policy on my bus. I'll get one VERY soon!
Glenn
Quote from: Tenor on July 25, 2009, 06:25:07 PM
So here's the story. I may have found a good parts bus (mci 7) that may have a bad tranny. It's about 50 miles from where I live, and there are 2 lane blacktop routes that would connect with minimal traffic. Assuming I have air for brakes/suspension and have pulled the axles, is there any reason not to tow it with another truck/ bus?
Are you CRAZY????
That coach weighs FIFTEEN TONS. A bus MIGHT work, but anything else other than a semi or a big-rig tow truck will not have the mass to control the towed load, and it will go from "doing okay" to "Also killed the crash was" in two or three seconds.
Call all of the big-rig-tow operators within 100 miles, explain the situation, and let them bring it as a back haul after taking a semi somewhere. If you are willing to wait a few days until convenient for them, you can save a lot of money and do so without killing someone.
An alternate idea is that, since you are planning to part it, part it THERE.
Tenor,
Would you be so kind to do us a favour and report that the job has a conclusion, whether true or not?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
BW,
I will post a conclusion. I am awaiting a call from the mechanic (probably tomorrow) then a call from the financial people at the academy. THEN I have to get some knee pads for the begging to my wife... ;)
At this point, I expect to use the towing company to do the job if all of the above works out. The rate of 200-250 (flat tow, not landoll) is just too good to scrimp on.
Glenn
Forgot to add, that if this works out, I'll be making parts available in the Spare Tire section. I'll start a new thread to see who is looking for what.
I've got my needed parts list ready! ;D
A final update to this thread: The academy that owns the bus has had a volunteer step forward to repair the clutch. I asked them to keep me posted if they change their minds or if things fall through. Thanks!
Glenn