I swear bus manufacturers don't employ any design engineers. Maybe if they did, common service items wouldn't take half a day to replace.
On my bus, the entire headlight assembly has to come out to replace the park/tun signal bulb. It also appears the entire park/turn signal light assembly has to be unbolted to change the bulb. What engineer thought this one up?
There shouldn't be any reason the headlights have to come to replace another light bulb. I've spent nearly half a day removing the headlight assembly on just one side. The nuts and bolts are all rusty, plus the bolts are supposed to be 10-32, but neither SAE or metric sockets fit some of the bolts. I had to grind off one bolthead after every trick I knew failed. I have yet to remove the park/turn signal assembly, but it appears I will have to buy one of those ratcheting flat wrenches to get them off as there is a defrost duct directly behind the light.
Oh well, the joys of owning a bus I guess.
I had a 1971 datsun 240Z that before you replace a burnt headlight, you had to remove the front tire on that side, the hatch for the headlight was inside the fenderwell, now I know where that designer went after 240Z owners got ahold of him lol.
Brian, they call that Mexican engineering sorry couldn't help myself good luck
With all the news lately about auto manufacturers, we've seen a few videos of car assembly. The entire dash going in before the doors, seats and steering column, the drive train installed from the bottom, before the suspension is added.
The engineering effort goes into "how can we shave five minutes off the build time" and little thought given to how it will be maintained.
This is one of the many reasons I'm using my '85 Kenworth cabover for my next conversion. Way too many designing flaws in buses in the interest of passenger safety for easy workability. Compared to commercial big rigs that are designed to be easily worked on. Good Luck, TomC
Try a 1966 Cadillac, to change the rear tail lights you had to take the bumper off and it weighed a ton. Don't ask how I know.
ED
Quote from: TomC on June 27, 2009, 08:18:26 AM
This is one of the many reasons I'm using my '85 Kenworth cabover for my next conversion. Way too many designing flaws in buses in the interest of passenger safety for easy workability. Compared to commercial big rigs that are designed to be easily worked on. Good Luck, TomC
Tom,
I like that idea of using a COE, I will like some input of what you doing. I got a 72 Wanderlodge with the 391CID which is no more up to the task & been joggling with either lifting the shell & replacing the chassis with a FE transit(5.9L cummins) or COE with a L10(lot more work). It could also be built with a container, full length slide, 4 outriggers for on/off.
wrench
You get what you pay for. . . . .
What good is the best there is when no one buys it?
If customers would do something other than flock to the lowest price, maybe the focus of the design engineers might be on serviceability rather than cheap.
I hear customers whine all the time about price. . . . . I call it the WalMart mentality - Paint & polish sells
with no thought of serviceability until it breaks. . . . Then the cheap initial price is forgotten.
A machine that is designed for service will cost more than the one designed for low cost.
Guess which one sells?
A business can not stay in business for long if no one is buying their products.
I guarantee that if the market placed a premium on serviceability & quality, that is what would be built.
I buy craftsman tools because of the cheap price, warranty & the ease of getting replacements.
I buy Snap-On or Mac when quality counts. If I have a choice in the tool box, the craftsman is always the last choice. But, I don't bitch & whine when the craftsman tool fails either, I simply get it replaced at sears & buy a real tool from Snap-On or Mac. 8)
Agree, that what put checker out, too good 3/4 to chassis for cab.
wrench
Or could it be that they don't want people other than their service personnel working on their products, if the idea of a serviceable item costing more held any water then apparently you've never tryed to change the last 2 plugs on a ferrari 308, you not only have to be a contortionist but you also have to have the tool designed to remove them and then steal it from a service center, cause it's just not available to the public. I'm inclined to agree, that the ease or cost of production is everything to the designers, make it pretty and make it cheap and make it quick.
Quote from: TomC on June 27, 2009, 08:18:26 AM
This is one of the many reasons I'm using my '85 Kenworth cabover for my next conversion. Way too many designing flaws in buses in the interest of passenger safety for easy workability. Compared to commercial big rigs that are designed to be easily worked on. Good Luck, TomC
Like this one???
I'd imagine neither cost or serviceability even make the top 5 when it comes to buying a new Ferrari. Seems performance, the name, the prestige, the image, & one up-manship are higher priorities.
Since I work as a design engineer, I can assure you that the engineers are constrained by what the customer will actually pay for, you see, we engineers like getting a paycheck & our employers can only give away so much before they loose money & have to close. If the customer is focused on serviceability first & cost second, the design will reflect that.
You would be amazed at how focused some are when it comes to cutting the cost at every corner.
It is a rare pleasure when a customer is interested in serviceability & will actually pay for it.
(edited to add)
BTW, just because it was designed with out serviceability in mind doesn't mean it will be cheaper.
And, yes, there is the mindset of selling something at a loss & make the real money on service & supplies - ever wonder why there are so many different colation angles & styles for nail gun nails?
but, what do I know? I've been asleep for 1/3 of my life. ;)
ya, ok
The problem is that before an "engineer" is allowed to design anything, he
should be made to work on the kind of equipment he or she is to design. I was
an electronics engineer, worked more as an electronics technician. Anything I
designed there after was with service in mind. RV and Bus engineers should have
to work and live at that school for a minimum of five years before designing the first product.
Len, you hit a nerve that I share greatly, That is auto makers, bus mfr's as well, possibly, direct engineering to dumb down and make the installations of the car components as easy, quickly, efficiently, as possible. I just got done replacing a steering rack on a '99 T&C van, all backup fasteners, no drilled and tapped holes, like my '83 Mercedes. The '99 van is definitely made with production line efficiency in mind, I had a '90 Chrysler mini van, with much better systems. My '99 Mercedes hopefully will also serve me for years to come.
Belfert, Sorry to hear about the rusted fasteners, Not much that engineer could do, However YOU have the opportunity to install all stainless hardware and never be in this spot again.
Two things I tell my fellow engineers/contractors/craftsmen, God helps those who help themselves (means we need to help first) and as engineers we should leave this world a better place. NONE of that Green Crap, just fix it like you will be back in there some time in the future, not soon however.
Good Luck,
Gary
Gary
I already purchased the stainless steel hardware today. I need to get the headlight assembly reinstalled tomorrow so I can take the bus to get the windshield replaced Monday.
Not all engineers have their head up their ***, it just seems that way. ;)
I started out as an auto mechanic. I went to college so I could become a designer & fix those problems. The frustration I had working on stuff pales in comparison to the frustration I have from the 'unforeseen' constraints placed on the end product. While a lack of cranial capacity may be the cause some of the time. :o Sometimes, the cosmetic styling overrides all else. :( Sometimes it is a delivery time line that cannot move. Sometimes it is lack of available tooling, sometimes . . . .
I am fortunate in that I get to see my designs fabricated, built & tested all in the same building that I work. If something is difficult, I hear about it & we discuss the options - sometimes it is modified, sometimes the prints are changed for the next one, & sometimes it stays the way it is as that is the best compromise.
The compromises are often complex because of all the unseen baggage, but there is seldom time or capital to allow a start over. Sometimes what looks so good on paper ain't worth nuttin' in reality.
Good luck with your repairs.
It wasn't always that way. The venerable PD4104 was designed to be repaired and rebuilt multiple times. The 4104 maintenance manual is incredibly detailed and almost fun to read.