Good Morning Guys
I looking for some tips or tricks to get my passenger side tag axle freed up. I believe it is seized at the pivot point where the bushing is located. I removed the grease nipples and dumped some diesel over it last night and again this morning. Any tips would be appreiciated as we are trying to get ready to leave on a trip in a few days.
Thanks
Grant
Grant.
I don't know what it looks like so I gotta be pretty general.
I'd locate the stops and see what movement is between them.
I would carefully, find jacking points and try to move the axle between the stops with a bottle jack with the air bled off. It probably doesn't matter what direction you move the axle first and it may be easier to jack into the top stop first from the ground. I would then turn the air to the bags and see if it won't extend the axle to the bottom stop. You may need to pull the wheels to do this properly and I would also pull the air lines on each side close to the bags to be sure the air supply is passing through the height adjustment valve and then replace the lines back on the bags.
You will likely have to break the lines to the bags to bleed them, as the valve can hold air on the bags after the main system bleeds off in some applications.
My experience with large pieces of iron frozen together by rust is that judicious application of heat along with copious applications of whatever brand of weasel piss you prefer will eventually win out. The goal with heat application is to use the heat to expand one part of the assembly without transferring the heat to the other part. Rather than generally heating an area it works better to heat a narrow area lengthwise along the area that is frozen, if that makes sense. If you can get any movement at all then that will allow your weasel piss to work its way into a new area - time is your friend but it sounds like you don't have a lot of time. As has already been pointed out you need to use the airbags to help you rather than working against them.
Grant, put the grease nipples You removed into Your grease gun and see if they are clear, if so reinstall and pump copious amounts of lube into the bushings. You might want to take a narrow blade screwdriver and scrape any solid grease out of the holes before reinstalling the grease nipples. If the axle will move down to the ground it will probable free up if You can get it to take a lot of grease. I would not use heat except to get the old grease in the housing soft enough to be able for the new lube to push it out. If the axle moves it will free up as You drive. good luck, John
Heat is the answer. I remove or free up a lot of stuff with heat. I'm not familiar with what you are trying to free up as to what is froze up, be it rubber or nylon or steel on steel. Even if it is brass on steel heat is the answer. If it's rubber or nylon then not. You will have to use enough heat to get the outside piece red hot fast. That requires a torch and a rosebud tip. Bobofthenorth had it right. Heat the length of the piece in a narrow path and try to expand it as fast as possible. If that doesn't work get the garden hose out and soak it so it cools off fast. If not loose then try the heat proccess over again. Eventually she has to let loose. And like junkman stated. Make sure those grease zerks are clear. After you heat it you'll probably need new zerks anyways. Best of luck. Later
Did you check the shock and is the bag deflated? Do you have the deflater valves in the rear passenger side?
is it stuck in the up position ? do you need to remove the chain? is the air bag inflated?
One thing on heating with the grease zerks still in. I would remove them before heating, I had a friend that did not remove when heating the item, the ball in the Zerk flew out like a bullet. Just a word of caution.
Thanks guys, I did find some info in the archives as well. These things are a......, well we'll leave at that.
I have been using weasel piss on that pancake clamp for a couple of days. I have replaced all grease zerks with new ones. So yesterday I removed the shock, greased the pancake clamp, loosened the pancake clamp, and greased again. It seems to be taking grease very well now. However the outside grease zerk on the tube portion is another story, I can't get much grease in it. Then I jacked it up so it was almost suspended in the air from the tag axle location, then hit it and hit it with my big sledge, no luck. I did have the air bag deflated so it would not work agaist me. Because we are planning on heading off soon, I think I'm going to run it and keep trying to apply grease on route. The axle is in the run position and there is downward pressure on level ground. Then this fall I think I will remove the grease zerks , and try to flush it with diesel, filling it with diesel through the breather tubes. Then once it's flushed I will fill it with diesel and let it sit for the winter, and winter is a dam long time up here. Then come spring I'll attack it with a mind set, using heat if neccessary. Am I setting myself up for a major break down running it this way?? I hate to get it apart and find out a need a part that is a month away. We are planning on putting somewhere around 5000 miles on it over the next 2 months. Thanks
I'd get that freed up before heading out.
First off, take some careful measurements of the tag axle's position relative to a hard point so that you know whether anything is moving, the suspension travel of both axles is too big and the jack's effect on the coach makes measuring to the ground no good.
Turn the air off, put the jack under the tag and put the weight of the bus on it by just a hair and see what happens. Be very aware of the amount of lift to the drive axle suspension and the tires, you don't want it to move too far on the first try. If nothing happens, make it secure and leave it sit. Any motion you get at this point, as long as it's small increments,is more likely to go back, with the amount of lube you've put to it.
After movement, do NOT go for more, you have to cycle it back down, or you'll just stick it up further.
Adding penetrant all the while.
You have to work it in little bits. Pushing up is way easier than pushing down....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I would advise not driving that way until it is fixed. Limp it to the nearest repair shop if you have to. It needs to disassembled, cleaned, inspected and reworked as necessary. Until you do that it's only a bandage and will likely seize again.
http://busconversion101.com/air_suspension.htm (http://busconversion101.com/air_suspension.htm)
My concerns about driving the bus with the axle seized would be tire wear and braking. The effect on braking might be minimal but brakes are only important when you really need them and at that point they are really important. At that point good brakes are like the old lady said when she p'd in the ocean "every little bit counts". If your tags are like a lot I have seen then adverse tire wear may not be that big an issue but 5000 miles is not an insignificant distance. If your tags are in decent shape now they may not be when you get home again.
As far as getting a "professional" to free it up, I'd take a day off and do it myself - probably a lot cheaper in the long run and much better chances of ultimate success.
I guess my concern is that I may burn the bushing out by applying heat and nothing else I have tried seems to work. Tehn if I do burn it out I will never get the parts on time to get it back togather. However having said that it is better to be safe than sorry. Thanks guys, good advice once again.
Hello Grant
If I were near by I'd be over there to help. The link I posted shows this assembly disassembled and it is pretty simple by the looks of it. Have you removed the clamp from the axle? If so what does it look like after washing it with some solvent? Lots of rust? There looks to be a thrust bearing plate in there and can you rotate it? Once the clamp is remove the axle should come outboard under normal circumstances. I think you would have to get the center housing glowing red before any damage were done to the bronze bushing. Now mind you I have never done this job before and take all this with a grain of salt again I wish I were there. All these parts look very heavy and extreme caution is in order.
I wonder if the center housing were pumped full of grease it would'nt push the axle free using hydrualic force. Any thoughts here by you mechanics?
Thanks alot Airbag, I wish you were here too! haha. I haven't dismantled anything, just been greasing and greasing and applying pressure to see if it will move. It will not. My mechanic said grease the hec out of it and run it, stop ever so often and grease some more. I hate running anything that I know isn't right. It will bother me the whole trip. I have had the rear of the bus close to supended in the air by the jack point on the tag axle, with the shock removed and the air bad deflated. When I removed the grease zerks the one on the outer tube looked quite bad. I took a small drill bit and cleaned it out as good as I could, and have been trying to get grease it but It's not taking much. The zerk nearest the centre of the bus works great, pushing the extra grease out of the breather tube.
Grant
Grant, there's another perspective that I'd consider before thinking about running a vehicle with a known defect. If there's any type of incident, you may have liability issues.
When I've been General Manager at city transit systems, I had a test for any decision. What do I say when the media shows up at my door with questions, and what do I say during discovery by a plaintiff's attorney? In reality, I wouldn't let a vehicle out with a known defect... not because of a plaintiff's attorney, but because I've investigated too many bus accidents, and I don't like seeing people in my charge loaded into ambulances.
Even if the other party is totally at fault, there may be fallout. Locally (Dallas, TX), the General Manager of a new sporting arena was hit by an 18-wheeler after a recent concert. Minor accident, the truck was entirely at fault, but the arena GM was not sober (news reports) - trouble all around. It prompted an investigation by the alcohol people, but it was determined he didn't work for the catering company. Bottom line, apparently he'd chosen to drive with a defect, was not at fault in the accident, but the feathers sure hit the fan.
Just something to think about.
Arthur
About the one point that will not take grease...acetylene/oxygen torch heat that area & around the outer tube until IR gun read 400°F all around and then try pumping grease in...it should work thorough the dried dirt & rust so it will ooze out. Then try jacking up a little and release until it no more sticking or binding. You can use your air spring to push down some but first, you must reinstalled the shock absorber or you can damage the rolling lobe and don't be under it while apply air because it can injure you.
Remember heat only the area that won't take in grease.
IR gun is an infrared Thermometer hand held unit that measure it temperature wherever you aim the red led beam at.
Hopefully it will break loose and travel.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
I'm new to bus conversions and buses in general, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about the ways and means of running a 30 year old piece of industrial machinery. I've decided that full compliance with commercial standards is the best way to go - it's how the bus was probably run and maintained for the first 25 years, and it's appropriate now. Siezed tag axles are a down-check flaw, and you should have them rebuilt before you put the coach on the road. If you manage to get them free and they don't develop excessive play - another down-check flaw - then you would be Ok to run the bus, but get the things rebuilt, don't just hope. If the wrong thing breaks, the whole tag could fall off and become a rolling accident. Hopefully you'll break them loose and they won't be flopping around after the gunge works free, and you'll be fine. I'm sure hoping, anyway!
Best of luck!
Brian
IBP can get most of the parts to repair the tag axles including remanufactured assemblies if needed. Call me at 1-800-468-5287 x232.
Thanks
Steve
Hey Grant
Did you ever get her to free up? I hope it's working.