I have some serious issues with smell in my bus from the toilet when traveling down the road. If anyone uses the toilet while going down the road the smell from flushing will absolutely gag everyone else in the bus. Running the roof vent in the bathroom doesn't really help. I have used various chemicals in the tank to no avail.
I do have a vent going through the roof from the combined black/gray tank. Last summer I did move the tank, toilet, and shower back about 8 inches or so, but 90% of the plumbing is the same. The only thing I replaced was the trap for the shower. I added an RV360 vent after the first trip, but that didn't fix anything.
It has been suggested I may have negative pressure in the bus which is sucking air in from the tank every time the toilet is flushed. Any ideas how to fix a problem like this?
I only have a curtain for a door to the bathroom right now. I suppose a real door might help, but that would only help contain the odor.
I have a venturi style vent cap (the fin type) and it seems to work well.
If there is negative pressure inside the bus, it is going to be hard to overcome. If you do put a regular door on the bathroom, that should also help isolate the bathroom from the negative pressure source. If that wasn't enough you could use a low volume fan to draw a little air in either from the outside or main living area to introduce a slight positive pressure to the bathroom.
A ventilator in a closed bathroom will create negative pressure in the bathroom. So if you close it in with a regular door and use a ventilator, you may want to have another fan of similar capacity bringing air into the bathroom from somewhere when the ventilator is running.
Some trouble shooting questions: Has this condition been around since trip one? Has it grown over time? Are there some trips this condition doesn't happen? Does it only happen when moving? Has your diet changed? ;D The answers should help make the solution more specific.
My short exposure to bouncing plumbing has produced two stinky experiences. A ptrap lost containment that adding water fixed. The second was a caused by a friend and cured by adding Thetford brand blue goo. The blue goo has worked so well that changing my toilet didn't stink up the bus. There were a couple of weird black flying bugs I had to kill but no smell.
Mike
We didn't notice this until the two trips this last summer after the toilet, tank, and shower were moved. It did not happen on the first traveling leg of the first trip last summer, but the tank was absolutely clean when the trip started. We first had the issue on the way home (800 miles) after the tank had been emptied from our five day stay. We had the issue again on the next trip for sure on the way home after emptying the tank. I don't remember if it happened on the way there the second trip or not.
I suppose one thing to check is to be sure the vent is clear, but I don't think that is an issue. Even if water was pooling in the vent enough to block it, the motion going down the road would certainly keep it clear of any water.
We're certain the smell comes from flushing the toilet as there is no smell otherwise from the shower or sink drains.
Edited: left out a word
I tryed an approach last year that seems to work very well for me. I posted about it and some people were concerned it might not work, but it actually does very well.
I put two pvc tubes, one on either side of the top of the waste tank, and elbowed them over the side of the tank and down thru the floor. One has a 45* angle on the end when it comes out of the floor facing forward and the other is just cut straight off. It gives an exchange of air while going down the road because of the force of air into the tube or even when sitting still if the wind is blowing. The curved end one is - I think - 1 3/4" and the straight cut is 2", Im pretty sure.
I have taken my bus to concerts with as many as 12 people in it and have had zero issues....knock on wood. But I don't know about the negative pressure thing. Ya might think about it. Just a thought.
Chaz
Thru the floor? Tsk Tsk Tsk! That's a no no don't you know?
Ace
Hi Brian,
I stumbled upon a smell from the tank that I never had before and I figured it out quickly.
After not using my shower for long periods of time, the trap dries up... Since all my plumbing vents are tied
together, it actually sucks the black tank fumes through the shower trap.. I just turn on the shower now
for a minute before setting off for a trip. Never have any smell anymore.
Nick-
If you only have a problem while on the road, you might consider an exhaust fan (bilge blower) sucking directly out of the tank. That would keep a neg pressure in the tank even when the toilet is opened. I would install it in a separate vent line from the main as it might impede the normal ventilation when it is not running.
I did the same as Chaz .... I original had one vent at the end of the tank and was having bad smells going down the road. Then I install a vent on each end of the tank (tank runs across ways) through the bay floor and have very little smell problem.
I think what was happening was when I went around a corner the movement of fluid in the tank (the tank is baffled) would exceed the capacity of the vent and send the smells into the bus or suck the traps dry, depending which way the corner went. I also put sink stops in with a bit of water in the sink to make sure they are sealed and I have a large stopper for the shower drain.
If you have a powered vent you can also run the fan so it's pushing air into the bus (positive pressure) this also helps a bunch
Yeah, I've had problems with mine since installation. I had a venturi cap on the roof and could smell gas. I think it might actually have been connections on the flexible hose I used for vent hose, but before I figured that out, I routed the vent to the air intake for the engine. So my engine sucks the methane in and burns it now. Well, then I had problems with it sucking the traps dry. Now, I've connected the roof vent back up along with the engine vent. I also sealed the flexible hose connections with plumbers paste and double clamps. The last trip was much better, but it was cold outside, so we'll see this summer if I have that issue fixed.
Thanx Prevost 82.
Ace may think it's a no, no but, it actually works VERY well. "Proof in the pudding", as it were. I actually think turning the 45* backward so it will suck going down the road MAY work even better if you have negative pressure. But mine works great, so why change it.
Later.
Chaz
Prevost82 YOU TOO?
What are all these busnuts turning into?
Doing all of this against the codes!
Shame on you guys!
I have NEVER had my traps Sucked dry although I HAVE had them evaporate dry while sitting here at home. As Nick has stated, simply run the water in the sinks and shower and the traps fill up sealing off any returning updraft of any nasty type smell!
Simple fixes for simple problems but those simple problems CAN become major problems IF you try and do everything by the book so to speak!
As I have said, sometimes you just have to look outside the box!
Ace... still smellin gooooooddd
CHAZ NO NO NO, I agree with you. That's the same exact way mine is and I was told I couldn't do it that way! You read my post wrong bud, but I agree! My vent even has a baloney cut on it to draw the air!
Sorry Ace. I guess a smiley face would have helped me get your sarcasism . ;D ;D
Oh by the way......... what codes??????? LOLOLOLOL :D
We're just "Rebel's without a cause".
Chaz
Chaz also my vent is directed rearward and has worked flawlessy!
Ace
Chaz,
First, Glad to see you back posting.... ;D
I also had some smell getting pulled in while driving, but only when the toilet was flushed.
My fix ended up being a simple tee on the top of the vent stack with a reducer from 2" to 1.5".
This caused the "venturi effect" and pulled the gases out.
Never had a problem while stopped.
Ace only likes the down stack because he refuses to say "upward(gas) and onward(over the roof)" ;D
Cliff
I've already added an RV360 vent cover that is supposed to create a venturi effect and it really doesn't help in my case.
If there is excessive negative pressure inside the bus, it ain't gonna matter where the tank is vented (roof or below), it's still gonna pull air inside the coach when the toilet valve is opened.
Before the powered (or venturi) vent will work, it must overcome the negative pressure & still move enough air.
I made the mistake of sealing up the front of mine a little too well, the result being that I was able to smell the engine & exhaust as tho I was right behind it!
Solution may be as simple as opening a window. . . . . or not. . . .
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12131.0
is the thread where codes were discussed by some & dismissed by others. . . .
Some don't recognise the difference between house toilets & the typical sliding valve rv toilet.
Some think 1.5 liter per flush is minimal water usage where others think 2 cups is excessive. . . . I suppose it's relative. . . .
I would encourage one to understand why the standards are, well standard & widely accepted, before rushing out to invent new methods . . . ;)
Nothing wrong with outside the box thinking as long as the stuff inside the box is understood first.
Past performance does not guarantee future results. . . .
Kyle, when you say you made the mistake of sealing your front up too good, what front? Are you thar far ahead with a scenic cause if so we want pics! I thought you always tugged a trailer home. Do they even have a front?
Oh yea another thing. Its ok to use my name in your postings! It will keep you from wording it to just insinuate!
Belfert, go to odorhog.com
Maybe that will help you with your stinking problem! LOL
Ace
The problem is not odor out of the vent. I am 95% sure the odor comes through the toilet when it is flushed.
I don't think the OdorHog would help.
OMG! ace, I'm so sorry I forgot to include you in the announcement when I drove one home from Delaware or the one up from Florida! my bad. ::) :P
ace, Why on earth would you always assume I was referring to only you. I hate to disappoint, & it may come as a surprise to everyone, but I wasn't thinking about you in particular in that post. you might be surprised to know that you don't rate any higher than anyone else when it comes to what is posted here when I'm reading. :o
Ever read the s&s discussion boards & notice the contempt expressed there for 'rules' concerning:GVWR, tire loads, speed, batteries, etc.? So you aren't alone in your opinions. ;D
The water use goes back to a time when we had to watch how much water went down the drain (carrying slop jars out every morning. . . . . .) while we were saving up to have the leech fields replaced on the septic system. Also was thinking about how fast a family of 6 can fill a 30 gal waste tank if water isn't watched . . . .
My Grandad emphasized understanding stuff before getting too far outside the box, so he predates your use of the term. Sorry again to disappoint, but he comes to mind even when you say it. ;D
All kidding & sarcasm aside, before one, anyone, can make the best choice for their needs, they have to look at all sides of the issue & that is what is so great about these discussion boards - all the different ways of looking at opportunities (they aren't problems until it stumps you ;D ) will enable one to utilize what works best for their situation.
Chill dudes & dudetts, tomorrow is hump day! ;D ;D ;D
Kyle...
my feelings are so hurt!
As for reading the S&S boards? Why in the world would I? Am I missing something there that I cant catch here?
I already knew you have a stable of scenics and they ARE all that from the looks of the one I was lucky enough to go in when at Cliff's house! My guess is that if you haven't started on at least one of them YET, then all you have is a bunch of yard knomes! ::)
OTOH if you have started and your on your way, I'm sure we all would love to see your pics of the progress! I mean, it WAS you that said you sealed it up in the front too good referring to your vent and this being a bus board, one would think that you were talking about a bus, not a tugger or S&S!
Then again, you may be just waiting to sell that land and build your dream coach but if that;s the case, it may be a while since the economy is pretty darn lousy these days! I know, I too have land for sale!
You yourself, may want to think about that chill pill too, bud! ;)
Ace
Ace, Kyle,
It stops here.... take it off the board if ya have to but, this is a final warning before we have to lock down.
Nick-
Not meaning to get this back on topic or anything like that but .............. ;D
We just open a window in the bedroom. Maybe it smells bad in the bedroom while we are travelling although I honestly don't think it does because if I scoot back there when we stop it doesn't smell bad. Since the old woman I travel with won't drive and the cat doesn't have an opposable thumb I guess I'll never know.
All I know is:
All the windows closed up - inside smells bad.
All the windows except the ticket window closed - inside smells REALLY bad, particularly at the front.
Bedroom window open with or without the ticket window open - bus smells good.
I never had a smell in the bus, until I notice that the toilet hose was not sealed on the outside of the hose. I RTV'd the outside of the hose, just to seal it up. NOW! I have a smell, have played with opening closing windows, that helps a little. Wonder what will happen is I crack the bay door open a bit.
I like the floor vent.
Bill
As far as the negative pressure inside the bus goes, that is just speculation from a forum posting last year about this.
I know my bus is way less than air tight up front due to how Dina designed the front end.
As far as the suction/pressure inside the coach that is drawing tank odours inside...
The forces involved in hurtling the coach through the air at highway speed will not be overcome by way of fans.
And as noted, trying to ramp up the suction to the tanks to compete tends to suck the traps dry, leading to stink when you slow down...
Either the coach has a suction, or the tank has a pressure....
see bob's solution. weaken your opponent. But note, opening the wrong window makes it worse!
Relieve the pressures, or figure out how they are building in the first place. What vents/intakes/exhausts were closed off during the conversion process?
By design, a highway coach went down the road with positive pressure inside.
Is the tank vent located unwittingly in a high pressure location in the coach slipstream? A venturi won't do much if located in the midst of a higher pressure environment.
Find the cause, don't spend money treating symptoms!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The vent is located maybe a foot off the center of the roof. I'm neither an aerodynamics engineer nor a plumbing engineer so I am not sure how to solve the problem instead of merely the symptom.
I had that same problem but found a rather strange cure. We ran out of cheese. Once we quit eating so much cheese the smell went away. :D :D Now when we eat a lot of cheese we use rest areas, truck stops and neighbor's lawns for our more strenuous daily duties! ;D Actually on a more constructive note isn't there a 2 way type sewer vent that is made for such problems. Basically it is for basements with the laundry and or bathrooms downstairs. I'll check with a plumber buddy I have if I see him tomorrow. I know he has used them a lot for situations when the traps keep getting sucked dry. Later
Hey Brian
Let's try working on the problem a step or two at a time.
You say you have the smell when going down the road. Does this mean when parked, there is no smell?
Have you noticed if it makes a difference which direction the wind is relative to the coach when the smell is present, i.e left front quartering wind-smell but no smell with a right quartering tailwind, etc.?
You say you have tried the vent fan and it made no difference. Brian, try this experiment to see what results it produces, unless you already know. Run the vent fan, all coach windows closed while moving, then flush the toilet. Does the smell worsen or truely, there is no difference either way, vent fan on or off?
Try this experiment, open all the windows in the coach, flush the toilet, smell or no smell. If no smell, then close a window at a time until you notice the smell, if at all.
Some "engineering" questions also for you. What size vent pipe did you use? How many elbows are in the run from the tank to the roof? Reason, a short radius 90 degree elbow decreases flow by 25%. Four of these in a vent stack causes the air flow to be zero acting as if there were no vent stack at all. Long sweeps are not as bad at about 15% each. Virtually everyone has one elbow coming out of the tank from horizontal to vertical, then varies from there.
Baffled tank or not? Was the tank ever over full such that the "TP" floated up the vent stack and stopped it up or have you tried making sure the vent stack is open to the tank?
Let us know the answers to these questions and see where we go from here.
Rob
91 Prevost LeMirage XL
Missouri
Scott I believe what your referring to is called a "studor" valve or vent! Might even be known as an "air admittance valve".
Works very well where you CAN'T have a vent in a room going up thru a roof or even in a particular room. They use them a lot on island cabinets with sinks or maybe like a bar type cabinet with a sink!
HD has them and they run about 20 bucks. PVC and fits I think a 2 inch pipe.
Ace
You do know that your toilet has an overflow tube don't you? It has to have a little water in it just like any of the other traps. Also tell everyone to put the lid down before they flush and to open the valve slowly instead of just mashing down on it. Made a difference for us. :)
Would seem that if foul odors are escaping when flushed, then there is no problem with air getting in the tank. The problem is there is already too much air in the tank. :(
Need to determine the reason for the tank being at a higher pressure than inside the bus.
Brian, can you extend the vent to be, say 12" taller than it is now? There may be some odd turbulence on the roof providing a high pressure area. The extension can be temporary, say one of the rubber adapter couplings with screw clamps. . . . Take it out for a highway spin & see what the results are.
While the front face of the bus is a high pressure area, the sides near the front are a low pressure area.
Things that stick out cause turbulence that can cause strange pressure areas around them.
These pressure areas are difficult at best to calculate & is why wind tunnels were built.
Good luck with your stinking problem. ;D ;D ;D
Not to drag this OT - but as I was going down the road in the rain this week - wipers off, and not being a necessity on my bus - I remembered a thread on the wind pressure loads of a bus (directly related to high and low pressure zones affecting drag, etc.) - and I was watching the rain drop pattern as it dissipated on the windshield, noting the high pressure areas, when I began looking in the mirror - It appeared that it was possible to do cursory test of wind load/pressure of your bus by watching the rain drops as they dissipate along the fuselage - worthless maybe in this discussion - but when it comes to things such as ram air affect, cooling mods, etc. - It appears it may be unecessary to tape ribbons all over your fuselage to measure the high/low pressure areas of your coach - merely watch the rain drops in your rear view mirror to ascertain the "pressure areas" - FWIW
Quote from: kyle4501 on June 09, 2009, 08:20:12 PM
Need to determine the reason for the tank being at a higher pressure than inside the bus.
While the front face of the bus is a high pressure area, the sides near the front are a low pressure area.
This is what causes problems with our coach. If I open the driver's side window, there is a significant air flow OUT the window, reducing the air pressure inside the coach. When the toilet is flushed, as soon as the toilet valve is opened, the air in the (higher pressure) tank enters the coach in an attempt to equalize the pressures. If we keep the coach windows closed, the pressure remain more equal and no air exchange when the toilet is flushed. Jack
Quote from: Chopper Scott on June 09, 2009, 06:56:19 PM
I had that same problem but found a rather strange cure. We ran out of cheese. Once we quit eating so much cheese the smell went away. :D :D Now when we eat a lot of cheese we use rest areas, truck stops and neighbor's lawns for our more strenuous daily duties! ;D Actually on a more constructive note isn't there a 2 way type sewer vent that is made for such problems. Basically it is for basements with the laundry and or bathrooms downstairs. I'll check with a plumber buddy I have if I see him tomorrow. I know he has used them a lot for situations when the traps keep getting sucked dry. Later
Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. I put one of these in my vent system before I reconnected it to the roof. The thought was that the engine would suck air from inside the coach through that vent instead of sucking the traps dry. Didn't work. It actually leaked sewer gas back into the coach when we'd stop. Wasn't sealing tight. And the engine still sucked the shower trap dry.
As for the back pressure sucking gas from the black tank when the toilet is flushed, we've encountered this, also. It's caused by the suction created by the air rushing around the front corners of the bus. Our solution has been to make sure the toilet lid is closed before flushing, and partially opening a rear window or the bathroom window while driving.
Maybe install a shroud in front of the vent on the roof to force a negative pressure zone where the vent is?
Quote from: Skykingrob on June 09, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
Try this experiment, open all the windows in the coach, flush the toilet, smell or no smell. If no smell, then close a window at a time until you notice the smell, if at all.
Some "engineering" questions also for you. What size vent pipe did you use? How many elbows are in the run from the tank to the roof? Reason, a short radius 90 degree elbow decreases flow by 25%. Four of these in a vent stack causes the air flow to be zero acting as if there were no vent stack at all. Long sweeps are not as bad at about 15% each. Virtually everyone has one elbow coming out of the tank from horizontal to vertical, then varies from there.
Baffled tank or not? Was the tank ever over full such that the "TP" floated up the vent stack and stopped it up or have you tried making sure the vent stack is open to the tank?
The vent is 1 /2" and has two elbows. One is a "vent" elbow and the other is a normal elbow. Tank has no baffles.
The tank has never been full enough to get stuff all the way up to the vent.
That might be your problem. Looks like your vent pipe diameter is not large enough. My vent (that goes downward) is 2 inches and has been said many times, no problems with windows open or closed while moving or sitting still!
Maybe you don't have ENOUGH of a vent!
Ace
Quote from: belfert on June 10, 2009, 11:09:37 AM
Quote from: Skykingrob on June 09, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
. . . .a short radius 90 degree elbow decreases flow by 25%. Four of these in a vent stack causes the air flow to be zero acting as if there were no vent stack at all. . . . .
The vent is 1 /2" and has two elbows. One is a "vent" elbow and the other is a normal elbow. Tank has no baffles.
The tank has never been full enough to get stuff all the way up to the vent.
Belfert, is that 1/2 " a typo? If not, that may be your problem, not enough air flow out the existing vent.
Also, if the vent is 1-1/2", is there an another opening to the tank that is in a high pressure area while on the road? That would cause problems . . . .
As for the flow reduction of 25% . . . . It doesn't work quite like that. A restriction from an elbow or tee etc simply adds to the effective length of the pipe. The vent stack with 4 elbows will still allow air to pass, but at a reduced rate compared to the same length straight pipe.
The pipe is 1 1/2". I left out one of the 1s.
I didn't realize 2" was in the code when I did the vent, but I doubt the size of my 1 1/2" vent is causing the problem.
If you ever go to a rally where they have a honey wagon servicing RV's, you better be sure you have a large enough vent so it doesn't collapse your tank.
Brian,
I didn't have time to read through all the posts so someone may have already suggested these two things.
We have a grey water and a black water tank and there is no question that if you allow food into the grey water tank, through washing dishes, and you don't consistently empty that tank it will stink at least as bad as the toilet, so if you have a grey water tank don't count that out as being the culprit.
Also, we installed a side mount hose rinse port on the side of the black water tank it just hooks up to the rinse hose at most rv dump sites, we also use the blue stuff to keep down odors but the real issue seems to be improper or incomplete flushing of the black water tank before travel, I was told by a guy early in our RV experience "don't drive until you have dumped your blackwater tank because it will form layers of difficult to remove crap. (sorry there was no way to say that any other way)and we also don't use the toilet while we are driving, we either pullover at a rest stop or if it's at might time we pull the bus to an offramp, do our business and then continue on down the road keeping in mind that I will be up bright and early to use the RV dump site.
I personally don't think there's really any way to completely keep a 40' X 8' insulated enclosure smelling like roses with people using the restroom. That is exactly why there is a no #1 policy on tour buses. That's also why I thank God personally often for a good fan on the ceiling of our bathroom.
Rick
Hey Brian
"I didn't realize 2" was in the code when I did the vent, but I doubt the size of my 1 1/2" vent is causing the problem."
Actually, most will be suprised, except for the engineering types, with the actual answer. Flow rate in 11/2" schedule 40 pipe is 0.0141 cuft/min, with 2" schedule 40 is 0.0233 cuft/min. This equates to a 63% extra flow rate for just 1/2" bigger pipe. Is this all your problem, doubtful, but certainly could be contributing. There will also be some effect from the standard elbow, but as Kyle pointed out, the effect is not total.
Some more questions. Are there any other things on the roof (roof airs, fan vents, etc.) near this vent stack that could cause airflow turblence and thus effect the airflow? This relates to the question from before about noticing if the smell is worse with the coach traveling through winds from different directions. Also, how hgih above the coach roof is the vent stack extended. Does it have a cap or is it just straight pipe?
Do you have any answers from the other questions yet?
Rob
91 Prevost LeMirage XL
Missouri
I can't answer the other questions because I can't drive the bus right now since I have yet to have the windshield replaced. The black tank is also completely empty and pretty clean at the moment. I haven't even dewinterized yet.
I have an RV360 cap on the vent so it doesn't extend up very far. The vent isn't really that close to the rooftop A/C or the emergency exit.
Quote from: RickB on June 10, 2009, 01:50:26 PM
... the real issue seems to be improper or incomplete flushing of the black water tank before travel, I was told by a guy early in our RV experience "don't drive until you have dumped your blackwater tank because it will form layers of difficult to remove crap. (sorry there was no way to say that any other way)and we also don't use the toilet while we are driving, we either pullover at a rest stop or if it's at might time we pull the bus to an offramp, do our business and then continue on down the road keeping in mind that I will be up bright and early to use the RV dump site.
Wow, I haven't heard such balderdash (and, please note that I resisted a pun here) in a long time... I think that individual gave you some bad advice.
I can't imagine having a fully self-contained RV, but having to dump the tanks every time you move. FWIW, we live aboard full time, and we dump about once every two weeks. We never have problems with sewer odors in the coach (well, OK, sometimes the cat box starts to smell a little, and my wife reminds me it's time to go out and clean it). Also, logistically speaking, dump stations are few and far between, by comparison to overnight parking spots.
One reason I think this was bad advice is that the best way to ensure that solids are completely flushed out of the tank is to make certain the tank is at least ¼ full before dumping, and preferably ½ full or more. Moreover, driving while there is a reasonable amount of fluid in the tank is one way to mitigate the buildup of solids on the tank walls.
If you have to dump before driving to keep the odors down in your coach, you likely have some bigger problem, such as improper venting, blocked vents, dry traps, or air current and/or pressure problems.
I would also mention that "the blue stuff" that you are using might be part of the problem. If it is a biocidal type additive, it is likely killing any bacteria and enzymes that should be in your tank taking care of business. I would suggest you change to a strictly enzymatic additive, possibly with a non-biocidal deodorant additive if you feel you need it. FWIW, we seldom add anything to our tank at all -- in five years of full-time living, we've added perhaps two gallons of enzyme, usually after tank maintenance.
JMO, of course, and FWIW and YMMV.
To speak to the OP, might I suggest you get yourself a couple of smoke pencils, and see what they do when the commode is flushed while driving? I would think that knowing whether or not a big puff of air was coming inside through the flapper valve would provide a starting point for further diagnosis. Otherwise, we're all just stabbing in the dark here...
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Any ideas where to get a smoke pencil? It looks like they aren't exactly cheap ($25) and perhaps not easy to find.
I saw some recommendations to use a children's toy instead or incense sticks.
Belfert, check your local HD,Lowes or hardware they should have a kit for testing air leaks around windows and door you also a piece of light weight yarn taped to the ceiling will work
good luck
Another idea would be a small piece of dry ice in a cup of water.
Hey Sean,
In my opinion that response was dangerously close to the kind of tone that keeps some folks from posting their opinion.
Disagree until the cows come home,
just do it nice....
Rick
P.S. I am not attempting here to invite yet another escalating argument that hurts the board and does no real good for anyone. We have had enough of those here lately.
Quote from: belfert on June 12, 2009, 05:34:04 AM
Any ideas where to get a smoke pencil? It looks like they aren't exactly cheap ($25) and perhaps not easy to find.
I saw some recommendations to use a children's toy instead or incense sticks.
A cigarette would work. Not for me though. I'd be afraid that after thirty years or so, lighting one cigarette would be the end for me.
Quote from: RickB on June 12, 2009, 06:48:26 AM
Hey Sean,
In my opinion that response was dangerously close to the kind of tone that keeps some folks from posting their opinion.
Hmm. I had thought my tone was completely neutral. If you are referring to the part where I said "balderdash," let me be clear that I was referring to where you were "told by a guy early in our RV experience 'don't drive until you have dumped your blackwater tank because it will form layers of difficult to remove [stuff].'"
Sorry if that wasn't clear and if I came across in any way other than informative. It was not my intent.
In the interests of clarity for anyone reading this after the fact, I have added a phrase to my original response to make my intention more specific.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: belfert on June 12, 2009, 05:34:04 AM
Any ideas where to get a smoke pencil? It looks like they aren't exactly cheap ($25) and perhaps not easy to find.
I saw some recommendations to use a children's toy instead or incense sticks.
Brian, this company is selling a device as a toy called the "Wizard Stick" for $19:
http://www.zerotoys.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Offset=0&Category_Code=PRODUCTS (http://www.zerotoys.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Offset=0&Category_Code=PRODUCTS)
which happens to be the exact same device that some other outfits are selling as a draft detection device for more money:
http://www.chimneyballoon.us/catalog/item/2257305/7033911.htm (http://www.chimneyballoon.us/catalog/item/2257305/7033911.htm)
Based on my experience, I would say this is about as low as you can go for these sorts of things, especially since it is refillable and reusable, and comes with enough "juice" for many uses. Real chemical "smoke pencils" are typically single-use items and come in packages of several units, for considerably more money. You would get them at your local professional plumbing/HVAC supply.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Rick expressed his concern based on how he viewed Sean's comments. Sean responded, including an apology for any offense. That is where it should have stopped.
I have removed posts that went beyond that. I will unlock this thread because it is an apporpriate and beneficial discussion that many have constructively participated in. But more attacks will not be permitted.
HighTechRedNeck,
Thanks! I'm not quite at the venting stage but I'm learning alot as I read the replies. This is a topic many are interested in and it shows.
Everyone, Please continue the topic!
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on June 12, 2009, 10:12:51 AM
Rick expressed his concern based on how he viewed Sean's comments. Sean responded, including an apology for any offense. That is where it should have stopped.
I have removed posts that went beyond that. I will unlock this thread because it is an apporpriate and beneficial discussion that many have constructively participated in. But more attacks will not be permitted.
Hey, it's all good. They were just
VENTING :D
Quote from: RickB on June 12, 2009, 06:48:26 AM
In my opinion that response was dangerously close to the kind of tone that keeps some folks from posting their opinion.
I agree with Sean that there is no reason to dump the black tank daily although I would have not said it quite the same way.
I have a combined black/grey tank plus I am usually many miles from a dump station while camping so I couldn't dump daily without a huge waste of time and fuel.
Sounds like there the vent tube isn't reasonable straight, probably not large enough and possible a little heighth might help if the first 2 suggestions don't clear it right up.
Grant
Quote from: belfert on June 12, 2009, 05:34:04 AM
Any ideas where to get a smoke pencil? It looks like they aren't exactly cheap ($25) and perhaps not easy to find.
I saw some recommendations to use a children's toy instead or incense sticks.
All that you are looking for is something to give you enough smoke to see airflow, that you can move around to find where it's coming from or going to. Incense will work just fine. So will a smoldering cigar or pipe, overheated vegetable oil, etc.
I've always used incense sticks. It has the added benefit of masking malodorous situations.
Mike
I've heard that mixing brake fluid with clorox will produce copious amounts of smoke. I've never tried it, though.
Gumpy Dog,
They make "smoke Bombs" for testing plumbing systems. The smoke is odorless and harmless. I used them as a Water and Sewer Commissioner to identify those that have tied their rainwater systems into the waste sewer system and it also freaked out home owners that had "untrapped" lines in their home. The answer to the outrage of those that had smoke in their house was that it identified a problem that could actually kill the residents or make them sick and that we had found a plumbing code violation caused by the builder. Keeping children in that environment was a criminal offense, or could be construed as such. Once it was "explained" we got a big apology and assurances that a plumber would correct the problem the next day. That was an elected position but was close to a Gummint Worker and I guess made me a politician of sorts. The sanitation workers did the job and I was there to answer to the "voters" and, you know, sugar coat everything. :P 8) ;D ;D
This is a problem that baffles me no end. It has a solution within the bounds of accepted and common practice because code and Winnebago would not have any truck with a failed process/practice. I have never heard anyone, particularly myself, say that venting down would not work. It is a design that many here are using to their great and odor free satisfaction. I refuse to argue with another's success. But, by Yiminey, it ain't code and it ain't used by builders and that has always been my questioning point. WHY?
I was told that you can have "NO" bends or turns in the vent and that it must go straight up. Well hooie! My ancient Winnie has two 45 degree fittings in the black water vent that runs up and thru the roof via next to the toilet. All others are arrow straight. The black tank has two vents if memory serves. To me the system function is obvious. While sitting, the gasses will go up the pipe that presents the least resistance to their flow. By default, the air intake to the tank to replace the vented air will come down the second vent pipe. When I fill the toilet with water and give it a "quick" flush, I momentarily pressurize the tank and a gush of air goes up through the vents. Never went up there to check. The inertia of that air flow is what causes the air to go into the toilet when the water is gone down. I can open the toilet and use a flashlight to see how full the little Darlin actually is. With my head down in the toilet, figuratively speaking, I smell nothing wrong regardless of how full the tank might be. NADA!
I have vent caps on my vents........sometimes. They blow off and I religiously replace them within 6 months like clockwork. ::) ;D
My black tank has been sitting open for 3 months. I mean there is a BIG hole in the floor and it goes into the tank....directly drops straight down. Ker plunk!. Empty now but has been opened like that in the past. NO ODER. Design success? I think so. Can you achieve this level of performance with another design? Apparently.
Your bathroom door will seal batroom odors in the bathroom only if said door is of the hermetically sealing variety. (prepare to repell boarders!)
I once had a severe, drive you out of the house, GOD AWFUL, toilet odor. It didn't used to be and then it was. After flushing the toilet, well, you cannot even imagine. I replaced the toilet seal a few times. i doubled up the toilet seal. I caulked and glued the screw in fitting to the toilet flange tank connection. Then I set the flange in silicone. I even pulled the flange and tiled the floor "under" the toilet so that I could raise the flange the thickness of the tile on the floor. I put vent covers on and I took vent covers off. It never left the park while I rode this Merry Go Round to nowhere. I lived with this situation for a month and a half and I lost a lot of weight. My appetite was curbed even to go out and eat Chinese in a restaurant. Remember that 45 degree bend I mentioned a while back? The one in the vent stack that was behind the toilet? The one someone might possibly use as a hand rail under some unforeseen nor recorded circumstance? That pipe had a crummy crack in it on the back and under side below the 45 fitting. The weight of the vent stack kept the crack well open and the toilet gas vented into the coach. Hack sawed out the section of ABS and glued in a replacement piece. Sat in the corner and recited the "Little Jack Horner" rhyme. Not really! :P I made that part up. ::) ;D ;D ;D When people started talking about smoke I reflected that my odor problem was so severe that I would have believed it was coming from under the bed if that is what i was told. I couldn't find it by smelling around as the gas was going up the vent and the crack w3as apparently a point where gas entered unless a flush was about.
I have never had odors come up thru the traps. Think about the shape of the front of an ancient Winnie. The ones that looked like a Neanderthal had a hand in the RV's design. Remember that old girl? Well, if you open the drivers window while going down the road at 60 the outflow will nearly suck you out that window if you have other windows open in the rear. I kept the drivers slider open a bare 1/4 of an inch and my cigarette smoke never ever got inside. The amt of suck in that coach was worthy of the film industry BUT it never pulled gas up thru the P trap or toilet. Never! If you have a conventional P trap and there is water in it look elsewhere for the problem. But that odor will drive you to great and unnecessary lengths. You have my sympathy.
Hope this helped, hope it made you smile a little. After all, others misery is always a yuk. >:( ::) ;D
Forever,
John
I think I'll just use incense sticks if I can remember to buy some. I was at both Target and Walmart today (don't ask) and completely forgot about the incense sticks.
This problem is going on the back burner while I get other things taken care of such as the broken windshield.
Belfert,
Put the bomb IN THE TANK and then look everywhere for the smoke coming into the house through a crack or whatever. The smoke bombs are a little fire and maybe you should "read the instructions" a little closely.
After draining the tank you could open the dump valve and set the bomb inside on the pipe with something to keep it off the pipe and then close the dump valve to allow pressure to build. You want to block all the vents except one way up on the roof to get the pressure up a smidge. With one 2 inch sewer vent open there can be no pressure in excess of what might move "smoke" around.
HTH and ALWAYS do it your way...really,
John
Quote from: belfert on June 14, 2009, 05:20:38 PM
I think I'll just use incense sticks if I can remember to buy some. I was at both Target and Walmart today (don't ask) and completely forgot about the incense sticks.
This problem is going on the back burner while I get other things taken care of such as the broken windshield.
If Minneapolis is anything like SoCal you can stop by a head shop on the way the home and pick up some incense.
mike