New members are vital to the growth or even survival of any forum. It is largely their questions and fresh ideas that spur discussions. They often ask questions that have been answered before, but sometimes that results in discovery of a new approach. New members, whether experienced at bus conversion or not, bring new experiences and perspectives. They sometimes bring up new ideas that help everyone.
Sometimes they post something that is technically incorrect and that usually gets commented on and the misinformation corrected. That is important too. Otherwise those searching for information would too often get misinformed.
But it is VERY important to the health and longevity of this forum that we don't develop the reputation of being harsh on new members or being closed to new ideas or perspectives on how to approach a challenge. I have seen it before and am watching it happen now to a once popular Yahoo group. Word gets around about the reputation and even those that don't hear of it lurk for a while and when they see others criticized or otherwise "shut down", they choose not to join or post.
We aren't saying let misinformation stand. If a new member, or any member, posts information you know to be technically incorrect, feel free to say so and provide the technically correct information. But try to keep it polite, disagreeing with/correcting the point, not ridiculing the person. If their statement is merely a different perspective that you don't agree with, by all means express your perspective too. But again, respect their right to express their view. This all goes back to the civility issues we have faced before.
If a new member has a problematic history in other forums or elsewhere that you are aware of and have concerns about, the right thing to do is notify the moderating team by clicking the "report to moderator" link in the bottom right corner of the post. Please don't flame or ridicule new members in public.
Thank you from your friendly moderating team.
I saw the post you are referring to and wondered why the person was being attacked! Then I read further and saw that this person had some sort of history.
Inquiring minds wat to know????
Jack
Yes, inquiring minds want to know. What was the "history"? Whatever, we sure drove him off and I didn't think that was very nice.
I do not know that a person's reputation on another board is of much concern. Let the person float or sink on what they post here. There are people here capable of pointing out fabricated information if needed.
One history that came up recently were several felony convictions for consumer fraud, not indictments, but convictions that resulted in serious prison time, very shortly after being released from state prison the individual, once again, engaged in the same activity that had landed the individual in prison, not once but several times over a period of years. No names are mentioned here. I realize the importance of bringing in fresh blood with new ideas to give the board new life but to openly welcome a predator that has preyed on numerous individuals in the past and showed no remorse inspite of being repeatedly incarcerated in state prison is a hard thing to ignore. However I'll honor the wishes of the board if thats what is desired.
HTR,thank you for addressing this,although an unfortunate incident ,hopefuly no harm was done.There was surprisingly very little effort on the party of the first part to dispel the aligations of the party of the second part,and fadded away quietly,very unusual for a innocent person indeed.
As for the party of the second part ,well,still cool in my book LOL ::)
Cody,
Now that is important information and adds a new dimension to your posts. But even so, it might be more appropriate to start by alerting a moderator and communicating behind the scenes. Aside from current contributors not knowing the reason for the hostility, there could be others observing from the sidelines that could decide this board is too closed to bother with. Thanks for the information though.
Hi Guy's,
When I first read the post, it was a subject that went way over my head in the tech dept.... So, I wouldn't have known any better.
I'm glad that we have folks here smart enough to see through the hog wash that something was not to par with this member!
The fact remains that this stuff happens and we all learn something from it. Hopefully before anyone gets hurt.
Happy Memorial Day
Thank a Vet for your freedom!
Nick-
Cody, are you privy to information that the general public doesn't have access to? Do you check up on all new members? What made you suspicious in this case? How are we to know? I assume you are talking about the member you had a disagreement with?
Which One! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
The first one. Did I miss something that was so evident?
:D :D :D LOL Just Kidding! ;)
After a lifetime in law enforcement a person gets a gut instinct sometimes that something isn't right, no I don't check up on everyone, and only if I'm asked to do so, by who, doesn't matter, nor does how matter but the information was accurate and exact. Yes, sometimes I could do things differently I suppose, hind sight and all that I guess.
There were actually two incidents this week that prompted the post I made. While the public handling of these two incidents was unfortunate, the existing members involved had the welfare of the forum community in their hearts when they sounded the alarm. And I thank them for their insight and concern for the community.
But the purpose of my post was not to dwell on things that have happened. It is about making sure the forum is always seen as a positive place for new members as we go forward. As Lin observed:
QuoteAside from current contributors not knowing the reason for the hostility, there could be others observing from the sidelines that could decide this board is too closed to bother with.
That is one reason that it is best for anyone with concerns to contact the moderating team with what they know and not go public. That is not to say that we will necessarily take harsh action solely on one person's report or on a person's past. But it will enable us to be alert for signs of trouble and act on that.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on May 23, 2009, 12:58:44 PM
If a new member has a problematic history in other forums or elsewhere that you are aware of and have concerns about, the right thing to do is notify the moderating team by clicking the “report to moderator” link in the bottom right corner of the post. Please don’t flame or ridicule new members in public.
Thank you from your friendly moderating team.
This is the key to the whole situation when dealing with any member! It should never be done in public, that's the job of the Moderators! All comments should be off line and let the Moderators make it available to the membership if they deem so appropriate.
I'm kind of getting sick of hearing about it myself, it ruins my desire to even read or post!
~Paul~
I really don't think there is a problem at all with new members. The vast majority of newbys, even if they are busless dreamers, are treated with respect. Their questions are answered by the same people who have answered the same questions a hundred times before.
The problem comes up when someone who has no real experience comes here and tries to tell everyone else how it's done. They are not willing to listen to the vast expertise presented here by those who have actually done it.
Remember the guy who was going to do a "frame up" restoration on some junk transit? He had done (or at least watched) someone do it with a Volkswagen, what's the difference, just a little bigger, right?
There have been a few others. For the most part, they deserve the scorn they receive. I don't think we are driving away any new blood at all, just a little cultivating.
HighTechRedneck,
Excellent council.
Ed Roelle
Quote from: edroelle on May 23, 2009, 04:37:01 PM
HighTechRedneck,
Excellent council.
Ditto.
Although to be perfectly nitpicky, I believe the correct word is "counsel".
Quote from: bobofthenorth on May 23, 2009, 06:36:01 PM
Quote from: edroelle on May 23, 2009, 04:37:01 PM
HighTechRedneck,
Excellent council.
Ditto.
Although to be perfectly nitpicky, I believe the correct word is "counsel".
I can top that. I believe the word is persnickety. ;D
Quote from: Dreamscape on May 23, 2009, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on May 23, 2009, 12:58:44 PM
If a new member has a problematic history in other forums or elsewhere that you are aware of and have concerns about, the right thing to do is notify the moderating team by clicking the "report to moderator" link in the bottom right corner of the post. Please don't flame or ridicule new members in public.
Thank you from your friendly moderating team.
This is the key to the whole situation when dealing with any member! It should never be done in public, that's the job of the Moderators! All comments should be off line and let the Moderators make it available to the membership if they deem so appropriate.
I'm kind of getting sick of hearing about it myself, it ruins my desire to even read or post!
~Paul~
I totally agree with Dreamscape view...in order to have good clean posts on board is to have full time moderators who is quick to point out the rule before it went too far. Until this is done...it only good as it can be. I know this board lack of an income to pay for full time moderators. So what can we expect from anyone who can put down anyone wrongly without reporting to the moderator.
As what HTRN posted...beware anyone want to post negative remark...you better think twice before you post it.
This is uncalled for to put down anyone without the proof.
In other words, if don't clearly read it well and don't understand it...ask a question or two without the negative remark.
I miss my new friend to learn more what has been done with the modeling or whatever.
Hope he come back to share with us knowledgeable BB nuts in his field of study.
If you personally don't like the poster or don't care about the subject...move on to the next one or whatever.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
BTW...there is many bus nuts read this MAK BB and fear to post their comment or answer or question because of the negative feedback from the very few.
Thanks Cody! When a predator shows up amongst my friends, I want them to know. IF you do it undercover or discretly you are sure to miss a potential victim. JIm
Lock one thread and start another about the same subject way to go guys.
Gerald you are a 100% about guys not posting I have friends that just read only and most don't even do that any longer.
I was guilty Sat of coming across the wrong way to a new member and for that I am sorry.
The new guy Tovinman was hammered by some for what ever reason also.
good luck and you guys have a great day
How about a comment from a newbie? I lurked for awhile as many also do and when I finally had some questions I wanted to ask I joined up. As with many forums when you post a question you get a lot of answers to your questions as you all know. But eventually the correct one appears. I am a very mechanically inclined individual but would be up a certain creek without a paddle if not for all the help I have received from this forum. Of the few forums I have been a part of this one seems to have the least issues and flame wars (now that the elections are over). I think it's because of a more mature group of members ;). I just haven't seen a lot of things going on that would scare a lurker away from joining. This is a pretty well behaved bunch. Later
I feel that the board is friendly to new members, but even with the new screening procedure sometimes a questionable person will slip thru and thats bound to happen, one such person I exposed (when asked too I might add) a few days ago, another was exposed by another poster, I don't feel thats a bad record when a person takes into account the new people that have joined lately and seem quite happy here. If I acted in such a way as to color the board in a bad light then I apologize to the many members here, quite possibly we should also rethink the position extended to Sam Walker, I'm sure he has something that could be considered an asset to contribute as he also has some knowledge of busses and particularily of business.
I think one of the FLAGS that upsets some of our members is when a new member starts right out in their first post telling everyone how to do something and questions anyone that disagrees with them.
Most of our memebrs start out by asking questions and as they gasin knowledge, thay start answering questions for other memebrs (kinda paying back for the help they received). Jack
Guys, talking to friends of mine on the board several are upset about the whole deal of running a check on a member and feel like when the word gets on other boards we are going to pay a price it doesn't bother me, it should because this is the way our government works .
good luck
I've probably said enough on this matter already but that has never stopped me before.
I went back and reread Jim's very first post that ignited the first storm. There was a lot of good information and work went into that post. You can argue with some of the assumptions but that wasn't the first objection to it. The first objection was nitpicking over a transposed decimal point (71.5 c/w 7.15) in the text of the message. The screenshots of the worksheet clearly showed that the correct figure had been used in the model.
That thread is now being portrayed as somehow protecting us from predators but all I see in the early going is a new poster getting attacked for the kind of silly typing mistake that all of us make. And I won't let this degenerate to a comment about how many of that kind of mistakes some particular posters make.
I have to respectfully disagree with Jack's comments about posters needing to ask questions first. We have no way of telling how many months or years a poster has been reading the board prior to making that first post. If any post has standalone merit we need to respect that, regardless of whether it is the first or the 1000 and first post for that particular member. In my opinion Jim's first post had standalone merit and nothing in it warranted the witch hunt that he was immediately subject to.
bobofthenorth, you said it very well. I agree. Thank you.
After much thought, I have come to the realization that your right, and in the light of fair play, I'm requesting that Sam Walker be given membership if he wishes here.
I have been trying to keep my mouth shut on this one, but I can no longer do that. I agree 100% with Bob Evans on this.
Moderators, I hope you let this tread keep going, since we need to address why we ran what appears to be a legitimate poster off the board. Yes, his thinking was a bit out of the norm, but we need that kind of thinking. As an engineer, I looked forward to his work.
Cody posted some very strong comments about criminal conviction. I am reasonably certain that those comment pertained to Sam Walker and not the poster. However, if you read the post it would suggest that the poster had a criminal background. I really don't care if a person has served some time, UNLESS is it is for fraud and they are trying to cheat the members of this (or any other related) group.
If a person is going to be labeled a criminal, I want to see a link to verifiable information. Anything less is grounds for a lawsuit. In the case, of Sam Walker, his track record has been well documented with actual court records.
I am personally very offended by the label we put on this poster.
A very sad time for this board.
UPDATE
OK, Cody posted when I was typing my reply. It now appears obvious that his criminal comments were about Sam Walker. He now has come back with a rather sarcastic comment about letting Sam become a member. THAT IS UNCALLED FOR (even if it is sarcasm). Cody has put the poster and Sam in the same jail cell by the way that he wrote the comments.
I will stop now, because my blood pressure is way off the chart.
Jim
Cody is in a bad situation here I think the guy that ask him to run the check on Jim(whom I do not know) should be man enough and have enough balls to step forward and say I ask Cody to do it.
I have no use for people that hid behind someone doing them a favor.
Cody I don't know what Sam has to do with this Mike K the owner of this board is a good friend of mine and he is not without sin just like the rest of us
This is starting to upset me now so I will leave it alone good luck
rv_safetyman wrote:
"since we need to address why we ran what appears to be a legitimate poster off the board. Yes, his thinking was a bit out of the norm, but we need that kind of thinking. As an engineer, I looked forward to his work."
I agree.
rv_safetyman wrote:
"Cody posted some very strong comments about criminal conviction. I am reasonably certain that those comment pertained to Sam Walker and not the poster. However, if you read the post it would suggest that the poster had a criminal background."
This is what I thought.
This is getting tiring, when you decide on an appropriate punishment let me know, meanwhile entertain yourselves with a walk thru the austin texas court records or the spicewood texas court records, of course the possibility does exist that another individual, same age, same name lived there at the same exact time and left at the same exact time, anything is possible I guess.
If your going to do backround checks on each new person that comes here, how about starting with some old members that portray themselves as to more than what they are? I know a few that go to church every Sunday but lie on Monday! To me they are just as much criminals as the next!
So how about it? Who and where do I send my list of wannabees, yes those that wish they had a bus and come here preaching the facts they know nothing about?
Maybe some of you worryer's should concentrate more on your own business! How about working on your own relic for a change! How about asking questions rather than cut thoase down that have been where you only wish you could be?
And I too am sorry for the way some of you candy coat your remarks only to get a dig in! Shows just how much class YOU REALLY have!
Ace
As long as discussion is kept civil there is no need to lock the thread.
The information Cody related was regarding criminal convictions of the original poster for consumer fraud. That said, I know several people with criminal convictions that are good people now. Is Jim G. one of those or was he setting up people here for a scam? I have no idea. As I have said, the situation would have been better reported to the moderators instead of published. But it is water under the bridge and the best we can achieve now is to handle them appropriately in the future.
Personally I too would very much like whoever the person was who asked Cody to do the check, and hence put him in this tough situation, to step up and take responsibility. Not that it would undo anything, but it would be the responsible thing to do considering the position it has put Cody in.
Cody, this is really very simple. You have labeled the poster a criminal. You now have eluded to some Austin court records. Court records should be public. Give us the link.
We all would like to be protected from the possibility of being defrauded. If you have the information that will protect us, we owe you a big thanks. However, do us a favor and give us the links so that we can make our own decisions.
If the poster was found guilty of some crime that does not impact us, and has served his time, then we should not concern ourselves with his history. If he has shown repeated criminal activity, then that is a different story. BIG PROBLEM IS we don't know what he did.
We are all big folks and can make judgments on how to protect ourselves. It is great to have factual data on which to base our judgment. In the case of Sam Walker, there were lots of signals that jumped up. His customer stories, the court records, etc. His impact was direct on our hobby. He scammed bus people and we all needed to be warned. And indeed we were warned with FACTUAL data.
The poster deserves the same treatment.
Jim
Mike, anything I've ever done I've owned up to, this is no exception. Just use a new rope. Everyone can do thier own research, I'm done with it.
Cody, I know you do. And that wasn't my point. I really do mean that the person who asked you to do the check should step forward as a matter of doing the right thing.
As I have stated from the beginning, what happened is water under the bridge and I am not suggesting anybody be penalized and nobody should leave. We just all need to focus on NOT attacking each other or new members from here forward. It's that simple, no rope needed.
As a member of this board I will post my opinion:
It is very admirable to want to protect this board,as well as the members from those that seek to do harm .
the mistake was not insuring that it was done in private,and the results handed to the moderators for judgment.
Now that this is public,every thing concerning this should be brought out into the light.
All the White Washing is not going to last very long and will not make this go away.
I think an issue made public,deserves a public answer,no apologies,just a good explanation would suffice so this unfortunate incident can be put to rest,and move on to better things.
All but one that are were involved have commented,whats fair,is fair,and now it is Mr/Mrs X 's turn to step up and accept the responsibility for starting this mess ,unintentionally or not.
If this is not done ,I am afraid there is a big cover up and we are all being deceived here.After all we are all human and make miscalculations,so humble thy self and come forward ,then let's move on ,shall we?
Luv and respect to all
Van
I've been out of town...what happened?
Jack
Jack and others, the main thread that got all of this mess started was: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=12016.0
It will take you some time to work your way through all of the posts of that thread and this one. Not a very pretty picture for this board.
Hopefully this is just a blip and we will get past it, but some of us are pretty darned upset.
Jim
Was there a post or two deleted or edited on this or the other thread? I keep seeing where Jim supposedly was involved in some sort of consumer fraud if I read it right...however nothing to back it up. I thought I read at one point that he had stirred up some sort of trouble on other boards...the link(s) I followed certainly did not bare that out.
I thought the guy had some good looking information...and got kicked it where it hurts bad! Of course that was my impression...and in my world sometimes 'impressions' wind up being what is remembered.
Now I am not a lawyer...I used to work for some and quit that...too slimy for me...however I think some of the moderators here need to read this whole thing from a less personal prospective and ask themselves if they took the personalities or friendships out of the equasion...would they have handled it differently. Not trying to tick anyone off here...you moderators do a great service here...and I thank you for that!
Jack
Just to make sure that it is clear, when Jack talks about "Jim", it is not me :) :).
Folks have called me a lot of things, but I do not have a criminal record ;)
The other Jim
If a reader doesn't question the credibility of what they read, they deserve to be misled & ill-informed.
When anyone makes a statement, they should be prepared for it to be scrutinized. The bolder the statement, the bolder the scrutiny.
And, if ANYONE posts a report worthy of NASA, they should expect it's credibility to be questioned intently. If not questioned, then no one took it seriously. A calm & rational response goes a long way to establish confidence from the audience. Childish insults & name calling erode ones credibility at a copious rate.
A newbie is one who hasn't established a reputation yet, so they should be prepared to answer questions to fill in the blanks.
If someone suspects a 'predator', wouldn't it be better to pose questions & let the 'villian' drown themselves in the mud rather than trying to hold their head down? You don't get dirty that way.
The frequent posters have reputations & that tint their postings, some for the good, some for the bad, & some for the ugly. :o
Some of the pigeon holes I use for classifying posters are;
knowledgeable, idiot, unknown/ undecided, bully, cry baby, pious, self righteous, lost, crazy, closed minded, open minded, friend I'd like to meet.
I'm sure we all do some form of judging others, that can be a good thing & it can also bite you in the @$$.
Maybe it's just me, but when someone posts a link to back up their position & when you follow it - it doesn't, I figure the one that posted the link is clueless.
Simply saying "the information is out there, look it up for yourself" what I'd expect to hear from a confidence man.
I've met lots at rallys that like reading my posts, I'm guessing that those that don't like my posts either avoid me, have the good manners to say nothing, or just lie. ;D
Most of them don't post & their reasons are varied, but I sometimes think they are the smart ones. ;)
Maybe this fellow will rise from the ashes, come back & provide some answers. . . . . maybe not . . . .
Quote from: rv_safetyman on May 24, 2009, 02:37:28 PM
Just to make sure that it is clear, when Jack talks about "Jim", it is not me :) :).
The other Jim
Most definitely not Jim Shepherd. I probably should have wrote Jim G. (I don't remember th spelling of his last name).
What's done is done, good or bad, it cannot be changed. Please, let's all learn from our mistakes, move on, and do better in the future. Name calling or inuendos by anyone seem to always cause hard feelings. Jim G is welcome to post and clear up any misconcetions if he so wishes. That said, I am moving on and will not add any more to this thread. Others are welcome to join me. Jack
Good grief!
I need a script. This is one big double speaking mess.
Maybe, there's three different posters who are persons of interest?
Perhaps at least one that has another alias?
A member of the community did some research, perhaps at the behest of another member?
We demand sources be exposed?
Someone is a criminal?
Some may be attributing the criminal past to the wrong of the three?
Much hand wringing and dark clouds on the horizon follow.
There's a movie in this somewhere.
Seriously, lets all relax, as the world works less than evenly, we got a little burst of activity requiring intervention, and we will carry on.
Would you prefer the forum end up like many out there on the internet? It is only with careful scrutiny by all of us and our Moderators that we are not completely deluged in ungodly CRAP. And into your e-mail at home too, not just on the forum.
This is our own version of Homeland Security, after all, neither of our North American jurisdictions let everyone in who wants to visit... and we don't fret about what THAT appears like to the rest of the world.
In the future, I will alert the Moderators expeditiously if I am aware of a poster's past history and with my thoughts on their unsuitability for this community.
happy coaching!
buswarrior