Hi All,
I'm trying to figure out a safe way to use our MCI-5 with a manual trans to put our 19' sailboat in the lake. As you can imagine there are a few concerns. I'm not thrilled about parking the bus nearly in the water or too close to it. The grade might be too steep for the bus to pull itself out or at least the clutch might not be happy afterwards. Years ago I had to smoke a clutch to get moving on a steep hill and don't want to make a habit of it.
The boat isn't very heavy, maybe 1000lbs with trailer. Putting it in the water wouldn't be hard but pulling it out would be. A winch might work but would be very slow. Most powered units are only 6-10' per minute, but have a long 30 to 50' cable. It would work but slow.
Overall risking the bus is to be avoided. I just had an idea that the simplist solution might be to just tow it out with a long rope THEN hook it up. Might not be very elegant but keeping the bus out of the drink might be worth compromising this some!
If you've any bright ideas, I'm all ears for good input.
Thanks!
Gary
Put a winch on the back of the bus and let it put the boat and trailer in the water. I would not subject your drive train to that abuse. FWIW best of luck ;)
Gary,
I used to drop my pontoon boat with a Class "C" and it was just a little too thrilling for me and it had an auto transmission.
Wouldn't even consider the Bus and not even on a bet with a standard.
Think about all the motions you would have to go through and then would probably end up damaging your clutch.
I would just offer to pay someone at the ramp to launch it for me, the winch would be a good backup in a pinch.
Cliff
Quote from: Garymci5 on May 05, 2009, 09:42:28 AMI'm trying to figure out a safe way to use our MCI-5 with a manual trans to put our 19' sailboat in the lake.
Easy. Hook up the trailer, drive to the ramp, then unhitch and bribe someone with a pickup truck to handle the last 50 feet.
The last place that I would put my coach is where it will go into the lake if anything goes wrong. NOBODY can do you any good if you have a problem, you're way too heavy.
definitely go with the long tow. I have gotten my 671 with manual pretty bogged down trying to do a start from dead stop on a slope similar to some of the boat ramps I have seen. (my bus is lighter though) so the situation may be comparable. Other options would be using some kind of pulley rig. all of this depends on your boat trailer being stable enough to be rolled about. I have used rope pulley to pull a car from a difficult spot and it was quicker than a winch but required a little muscle, there is even a way to use loops at either end of the rope as cinch points and then running length of rope back and between loops , the more lengths the less effort to pull, this rig locks after each pull. Others may say 1000 lbs is nothing go for it, but I would try this somewhere with a steep slope and no water below before hitting the ramp, seems like a better place to experiment. No wonder my life seems dull sometimes, used to be I would try this on the boat ramp 1st, preferably with a storm approaching and a dozen others waiting to pull their boats.
I've just managed to lose the long reply I wrote to this question based upon many years of launching and recovering boats with all types of vehicles. Bottom line though - if you have enough space then you shouldn't have a problem. At the end of the day, it's not like you're trying to launch a Hallberg Rassy. Even if your 19-footer is heavily-built long keeler it will probably make less difference to your clutch than filling the bus's water and fuel tanks.
Jeremy
I have a 19 ft runabout, I thought about it for a moment (well a half-a-moment). There is just to much that could go wrong. I didn't want to be the entertainment for millions of people on U Tube. BUR
I launched mine ONE time with my 4106, two problems, while floating the boat off the trailer I noticed a large (and getting larger) oil slick gathering around the engine area of the bus, then found that I had submerged the electrical panel at the rear corner of the coach. Lost reverse gear untill I found a way to jump the reverse solinoid, no way I'll do it again.>>>Dan
You could try putting a hitch on the front of the bus.
Isn't reverse a little faster than 1st? That'd make pulling it out that much harder on the clutch.
I can think of lots of things I want to do with my bus.
Backing it downhill towards big water ain't never been on the list!
Have someone else put her in the water will be your best bet. Just look for someone with a nice dent free rig & a nicer boat than yours . . . ;)
It's true that you do often see boats being launched by vehicles with front-mounted towbars, but this is done for maneouvreability rather than because of gear ratios. I don't know about American buses, but 1st gear on my bus is very low (so much so that it it rarely used on the road), so I wouldn't have any worries about taking it down a reasonable slope - but in any case you shouldn't be taking the tow vehicle that close to the water anyway (if the tow vehicle actually gets wet then you've definitely done it wrong!).
Jeremy
Something like this in the bay
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=6661 (http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=6661)
or this http://www.djproducts.com/products/trailer-mover.html?gclid=COiDisbqpZoCFQghnAodWE469g
(http://ttp://www.djproducts.com/products/trailer-mover.html?gclid=COiDisbqpZoCFQghnAodWE469g)
or this:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200381462_200381462?cm_vc=C5503 (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200381462_200381462?cm_vc=C5503), down hill easy or hook to winch on bus
or swivel tongue wheel and hooked to winch on bus
That little manual tow dolly could never pull a boat out of a lake without a lot of help. I have used one in an emergency to move an older Airstream trailer on fairly level ground. (Tree was about to fall on the trailer.)
You should rename the title "Putting a bus in the water with a boat LOL.If you know where you are going call ahead and try to arrange to have it launched,other wise you too can become the afternoon's entertainment for blocking the ramp.
all depends on the slope of things(meant to say scope,ahh! same meaning!LOL)Easy In,Easy out,Hard in,twice as hard comin'out.
Reverse planning always works for me ,FWIW.cheers :)
Bottom line is, your bus isn't water tight enough. The navy spends millions more to make their subs watertight, and I just don't think that your bus is watertight (no matter how good your conversion is ;D ;D ;D). I would never try it with my auto transmission, and never with a manual.
Enjoy, and if you do launch with your bus, send me the video ;D ;) ;D.
God bless,
John
The Key to this Thread is "LAND YACHT". Only High and Dry need apply. Stay Safe, M&C
Gary - It's easy, get yourself a double pair of heavy (and tall with skid proof feet) wheel chocks with a yank rope attached and when you get to the point where you can float the boat have someone chock one set of drives - let the bus roll back completely on the chocks (where the wheels are applying down force on the toe of the chocks) then set your Parking Brake - after launching/retrieving the boat release the Parking Brake (if you've done this right the bus should simply be resting on the chocks) - Now you can walk the bus out without burning up your clutch (as you get rolling have your chocker pull the chocks with the aforementioned ropes) - HTH
The correct answer is "DON'T" even think about getting near the water with anything the size
of a bus... Especially one with a manual transmission.
If you decide to try it make sure we all get to view the video as soon as they fish you out....
(Or put out the clutch fire!).
Hee hee my first thought is to just do it but be sure you have someone standing nearby with a video camera so we can all see how busses float on youtube! :)
Seriously, the above ideas of using a winch and cable are probably the safest and would be my first choice.
Boggie;
After A trip to burning man I'm sure your crown could use a good bath .lol
Don
Quote from: belfert on May 05, 2009, 11:54:30 AM
That little manual tow dolly could never pull a boat out of a lake without a lot of help. I have used one in an emergency to move an older Airstream trailer on fairly level ground. (Tree was about to fall on the trailer.)
Yeah, he said his boat wasn't to heavy but I bet it would get real heavy on the slope.
The more I think about it would be a winch with a remote control kinda like
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200330101_200330101 (http://ttp://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200330101_200330101)
and make sure the trailer has a wheel at the tongue http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_150886_150886 (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_150886_150886) except better.
If you can get the trailer wheels started down the ramp and the keep the bus on the flat, then let boat down ramp with winch in reverse and guide the toungue.
then do again with the trailer to pull boat back in. Make winch versatile because you can always use a winch some where and you can keep it in the bay.
Just a thought, let us know what you come up with,
and post a video with cleverness or demise ;) :D
I'm glad this came up, i may have to reconsider the boat thing some day. ;)
So, what have you learned?
With an exception or two, this place seems to be populated with chickens, followers and naysayers?
What might the advice have been if you asked about driving into the shopping mall parking lot if there are cars parked in it...?
I am sure you mean to only use concrete boat ramps, gravel would be a non-starter in my book.
If your coach will pull away on a slope similar to the boat ramps in question, the only concern I'd have is whether the boat will float before the coach has to go into the water. By pull away, I mean a relatively small amount of clutch slipping to get it to roll, with the absolute minimum of revs. Don't make the mistake of revving the crap out of it and slipping for any distance, you will destroy it right there.
An auto tranny would make this a breeze, the manual just makes it more challenging!
Wheel chocks are a nice touch to help a taller geared coach pull away. Another trick is to attach the ropes on the chocks to the back bumper, just drag them along until you get on flat ground.
Get a friend with a half ton 4x4 and a recovery strap in case you need a rescue, and go try it out at a quiet boat ramp!
Let us know!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Gary -
As often as Buswarrior and I are on the same page, with this one I'll have to disagree with him.
This is based on the various boat launch ramps in my area, and the fact that you've got an MC5A with a 4488 gearbox in it.
Around here, most ramps are roughly 10 - 12% grades - perfect to smoke a bus clutch, unless you've got a stump-puller first gear. Sadly, the 4488 doesn't.
One other thing - the drum brakes on your coach are designed for maximum stopping power when going forward. It's in the geometry of the linkage that moves the shoes against the drums when they're applied. In addition, the rear drums do roughly 60% of the braking - and chances are you're going to have the rear axle in the water launching the boat. So now you've only got 40% braking capability operating in it's weaker mode backing down the ramp. . .
OTOH, it's your coach, and, as Fast Fred says: "Do it YOUR way!"
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
The only way I would use a bus for boat launching and retrieving on a steep ramp is if it either had an Allison automatic, or a 10 spd roadranger in it. Maybe a 6 spd would work, but the 4 spd would NOT have enough startability to pull the boat and the bus up a steep launching ramp-period. Good Luck, TomC
Wonders never cease to amaze me - Are we a bunch of hanger queens? - Gary I'm sorry if I assumed you'd actually owned a boat or used a boat ramp - I'm sorry if I assumed you knew the difference between launching from a gravel boat ramp at 20% grade as opposed to a concrete ramp that you won't high center yourself on - I read through tons of posts telling people how to handle brakes, steering, jacking, and a plethora of highly technical problems that if not properly executed could kill the poster and/or a multitude of innocent bystanders - And boat launching is such a monumental problem? Remember I'm from FLA, you learn to drive on a boat ramp, it's part of the road test.
Gary, if you follow my post, and your chock man pulls the chocks prematurely (before you've established your startability), I assume that before your bus rolls into the drink you will set the service brake, have them re-chock the wheels,and set your parking brake. At worst you'll have to get yanked out. You certainly won't kill anyone, and you aren't required to prove your bus is a flotation device. The worst thing that could happen is you get a tow - You do have a towing policy don't you?
For the rest of you naysayers, get out your "Earth Google", look at Kebler pass or the 'trail' to Marble in Colorado. If I can get my bus (approaching 25 tons) up those roads, is a boat ramp that big of a hill to climb?
I would think that you might be safe if you can make the tongue of the trailer to extend the full length of the trailer. And maybe you could stop the bus before the rear wheels drop off the slope of the last part of the ramp. Or have a long winch to let it roll down and pull it back to that point so I would not have my bus in a bad spot.
But in all sound like one of those things I would not even try.
I'm amazed by how many people seem to think this simple operation is simply impossible. Unless the slipway is exceptionally steep or exceptionally long (due to an unusually large tidal rise-and-fall for instance) then the bus will never need to get into any sort of precarious position. Launching a lightweight boat from a heavy vehicle is the really easy way of doing things - try it the other way round and things can get interesting!
Jeremy
As indicated here it is very possible and doable.
However, not to be a naysayer, the details is where many accidents are born.
"Hey this ramp does not look too wet. "
"It can be wet, hasn't rained in weeks, but 14 boats were launched to day with trailers dripping water over the ramp. "
"Is that nice green hue really moss on the ramp. Slicker that stuff."
And many more,
As BW and others said this is possible, but with caution, vigiliance, and good judgement.
Personally, I have launched with a bus, and lost it partially in the drink. A VW bus, up to the top of the carbs, Pulled out with a 4X4. Waved (Papal wave) to the crowd. I pulled plugs, sponged out distributor, cranked, reinstalled plugs and WD-40ed it. Started 20 mins later, ran for an hour after. Pulled starter 6 months later and drained 1/2 cup of water from starter body.
I will not be trying this with my 5C, but clearly with proper conditions it can be accomplished.
Quote from: buswarrior on May 05, 2009, 08:14:49 PM
So, what have you learned?
With an exception or two, this place seems to be populated with chickens, followers and naysayers?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Interesting!
So if you have a different
opinion than BW's you are a chicken, follower or naysayer?
Come on BW.....This may call for a Molson intervention......
Quote from: Gary '79 5C on May 06, 2009, 01:36:56 AM
However, not to be a naysayer, the details is where many accidents are born.
"Hey this ramp does not look too wet. "
"It can be wet, hasn't rained in weeks, but 14 boats were launched to day with trailers dripping water over the ramp. "
"Is that nice green hue really moss on the ramp. Slicker that stuff."
And many more,
I will not be trying this with my 5C, but clearly with proper conditions it can be accomplished.
I agree and can add more, how busy is the ramp (this could turn into a real production) not all boat ramps offer pull forward and then back up space for a 35' bus plus trailer, how about just backing the trailer up...period.
Remember, its always easy to say go for it when we have nothing invested in the outcome.
I don't want you to be over confident that it will be easy and possibly without complications.
I hope you do it and are succesful and have a blast in your sailboat.
See ya on the road somewhere.
Cliff
My first thought in this thread was that if you can back a little boat behind a bus, you are a better man than me to begin with. Chances are, you can't even see the boat in the mirrors.
Some of the best people watching in the world is at a busy boat ramp ;)
Quote from: Len Silva on May 06, 2009, 06:19:33 AM
Some of the best people watching in the world is at a busy boat ramp ;)
That's absolutely true; my parents have a place not far from one of the public launching slipways on Lake Windermere, and I always used to make a point of taking the dogs for a walk down there around 4pm on a sunday - great entertainment to be had watching big headed people with big ski-boats and big 4x4s make complete fools of themselves. Needless to say that the ones who knew what they were doing were usually the people with sailing boats, normal-sized cars and an understanding of how ropes and gravity worked
Jeremy
Cliff,
Too many people on one side of the boat will tip it over? ;)
We'll share a few and giggle!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Going over a steep pass when in motion is a whole lot different then trying to start on a steep launching ramp. And with the drought in many areas, the ramp maybe entirely too long to do the winch idea. Most ramps I've seen are of the 20% grade or more. Try this-without the boat-find a steep ramp and with the bus only-try to start on it. Personally I wouldn't even try with a 4 or 5 spd manual transmission. Good Luck, TomC
Public boat ramps usually have a slope of 8/1 to 6/1 (12 to 16%) - FYI ADA allows wheelchair ramps to have a 12/1 slope (8%) - And yes I know there are a ton of ramps that have greater slopes, and my advice is DON'T use them - Also don't attempt to launch if traction is poor, you have a 6v53 powering your 45 foot Eagle, 1st gear is so tall that it's your passing gear, your clutch slips as if Andy Granitelli had just STP'd it, your incapapable of negotiating backing maneuvers, your brakes are not adjusted properly, your air system is flatulent, your mad at your spouse, or you forgot to put the plug in your boat ::)
BW - Do you want my complete list of things that can tip a boat over :P
Just a little levity here
Quote from: Len Silva on May 06, 2009, 06:19:33 AM
My first thought in this thread was that if you can back a little boat behind a bus, you are a better man than me to begin with. Chances are, you can't even see the boat in the mirrors.
That's a good point and didn't think about that one. In this case it should be alright as the boat is about the same width as the bus (it's a catamaran; NOT a HobieCat ;-). This should help with the width issue. I consider myself quite good at backing things up, at times backing up a coach with a toad car, while combating the revers caster effect of the car' suspension. Okay, maybe that one put me in my place!
If needed the boat can be rolled into the water using a pulley system from the bus. Ultimately I'm not quite willing to get stuck on a boat ramp-- or worse-- to find out the hard way. The easy way is for the wife to follow us to Waldo Lake (OR) and use the Ridgeline for boat service, as done so many times before. Trying to avoid this if possible.....
I saw a video once of an RV, on a boat ramp, launching a boat. As the man was unhooking the boat, the RV slipped out of gear. It was really funny watching the diver and the tow truck pull the RV, out of the water.
As it has been said, if you try this, please shoot video.
Bill
In Beaufort, SC
Niles,
we're outnumbered,
best we retreat for a beverage?
water on the water, beer on the pier!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: Kwajdiver on May 06, 2009, 06:55:27 PM
I saw a video once of an RV, on a boat ramp, launching a boat. As the man was unhooking the boat, the RV slipped out of gear. It was really funny watching the diver and the tow truck pull the RV, out of the water.
As it has been said, if you try this, please shoot video.
Bill
In Beaufort, SC
To those that make this type of comment: (forget for a moment that it's not even remotely constructive, as a forum comment should be)
The supposed "vote" of confidence, in an earstwhile attempt to prompt someone towards potential disaster, while requesting it be filmed is less than altruistic. Especially when those that make the request desire only the chance to view someone else's demise and not success.
Tell you what: You First.
__________________________________________________________________
Quote from: niles500 on May 06, 2009, 08:38:55 AM
Public boat ramps usually have a slope of 8/1 to 6/1 (12 to 16%) - FYI ADA allows wheelchair ramps to have a 12/1 slope (8%) - And yes I know there are a ton of ramps that have greater slopes, and my advice is DON'T use them - Also don't attempt to launch if traction is poor, you have a 6v53 powering your 45 foot Eagle, 1st gear is so tall that it's your passing gear, your clutch slips as if Andy Granitelli had just STP'd it, your incapapable of negotiating backing maneuvers, your brakes are not adjusted properly, your air system is flatulent, your mad at your spouse, or you forgot to put the plug in your boat ::)
BW - Do you want my complete list of things that can tip a boat over :P
Just a little levity here
Point well taken and thanks for the tech specs, especially the hull plugs (my wife thankfully remembers every time!). I don't intend to put the bus in the drink, or anywhere too near, but certainly plan to put several in me while in it-- and safely parked, no less.
Had a 40' Eagle 05 with a DD318 and fully loaded could barely get going on a 6-8% grade w/o rubbing the clutch a bit raw. The MCI wouldn't be happy on a steep boat ramp in a primative location where cell phones don't work and the nearest help is 35+ miles away. But heck, the water isn't THAT deep....(humorous comment made; there is NO intention of actually doing it...you, yes, you [those reading this, not the "poster"], withhold thy comments!) ;D
This thread gives me an idea for what to do with my 4903 . . .if I can't sell it to someone for a motorhome conversion, maybe it would make a good AMPHIB . . .
:D
I have no experience launching boats. However, I have had the experience of getting stuck halfway up a hill, pulling a tow dolly and car, when my 8v71 and Spicer could just not take the grade. It was quite souring. I even got rid of the tow dolly because of it. Although, I think that having a lake behind me would have made it more exciting, I believe I will skip creating that situation.
I think there are several safe options: bring a car, set up an adequate winch and dolly contraption, pay someone to do it, etc. How long a cable would you need on a winch to avoid crossing the event horizon?
Gary - I'm confident you'll make the right decision on how to do it, after all you did ask first - Glad you could appreciate my humor - good luck
BW - You and I don't need a particular reason to partake of beverages - But I like the way you think - I prefer to look at it as progress and not retreat - To paraphrase another poster - 'Onward and Drunkard' ;D
I'm trying to maintain appearances....
Gotta have an excuse to drink or we'll be labeled alc...hics.
happy coaching!
buswarrior