can we get a conclusive answer about use of inverters for power once and for all in one location. There seems to be lack of cohesiveness about this subject. ::) :P :'( ;) 8)
Get a generator, and thank me when you have no problems making money.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
No!
"You can't handle the truth!" - Jack Somebody ;D
I just finished putting my Xantrex 4024 in - and I think it's sweet! What do you want to know?
Glenn
How to run an ice cream truck using an inverter.....
sorry, you asked....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
You say you want an "answer," but you did not ask any specific question(s).
The subject is really too large to cover in a couple of posts, but there is plenty in the archives. There are also several good web sites on the topic, and even some books. Lastly, the manufacturers all have pretty good, if biased, web sites.
There is no single "right" answer when it comes to inverters. Lots depends on what you want to use it for, whether you need integral charging, what, if any, motor loads you will have, and whether you live mostly on- or off-grid.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: circusboy90210 on April 13, 2009, 06:53:49 PM
can we get a conclusive answer about use of inverters for power once and for all in one location. There seems to be lack of cohesiveness about this subject. ::) :P :'( ;) 8)
You mean kinda like a 3-ring circus? I'll worry about that when I get my bus.
Right now, I have one of those power-robbing things in my car. It's a mini-450 Watt if you must know, and I wouldn't trust my laptop to it, even for recharging the battery. Did fine for my cell phone, but that was for an emergency.
What I do know is this: I need a pure sine inverter if I want to be absolutely safe with all of my products. Not every product needs pure sine, but why not stick to the standard? My dad was a well respected engineer for Westinghouse Electric (Before they got mismanaged by a group of MBA's-NOT engineers!), and that was his advice.
As far as all the other options and uses and how they work together in a bus are concerned, I'll check the archives. If I can't find it, then I'll ask someone like Sean. ;D
I'm not sure how an ice cream truck is related to a bus or motor-home though...can somebody explain that to me? ???
Quote from: circusboy90210 on April 13, 2009, 06:53:49 PM
can we get a conclusive answer about use of inverters for power once and for all in one location. There seems to be lack of cohesiveness about this subject. ::) :P :'( ;) 8)
Sure, in fact, I'll give you four conclusive answers:
1) Topeka, Kansas
2) A silver umbrella rack
3) October 17th
4) Wooley Mammoth
I'm not sure what they are the conclusive answers to, but then I'm not sure what your question is either.
The answer is 42.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverter
I find that inverters are kinda like stereo speakers. You can't ask someone what is best because everyone hears differently!
With inverters, lately I give the same advice as I do if asked what speaker is best:
If YOU love it, whatever it is, it's the best thing in the world for you, regardless what I or anyone else thinks!
Personally, I have two inverters on my bus but not how or why you'd think. One is a dedicated 2KW pure sine chinese cheepo from ebay that I built into my 110v AC style summit refrigerator (and it gets turned on and off by the fridg's thermostat) so it's now a wonderful 12 volt DC fridge that only cost me a song, runs happily on three solar panels on the roof, and ended forever my hassles with ammonia based units-
And the other is a tiny 100W pure sine that I keep alive 24/7 for folks including me who need to plug little stuff into when we're on the road, like cellphone chargers etc. Oh, and my sweet little Dell computer that I use for GPS.
I would recommend from personal experience that pure sine units will give you fewer headaches in the long run... but whatever you think is best probably is!!!
Cheers
Can Vanna buy this guy a Vowel? and the answer is? Hey Bob, It is 42. Go fig. M&C
Quote from: bobofthenorth on April 13, 2009, 09:44:43 PM
The answer is 42.
Yes but you're going to need a bigger computer to figure out the question. Say something as big as .... the earth.
I forgot what I was going to say, sorry.
Will
Quote from: circusboy90210 on April 13, 2009, 06:53:49 PM
can we get a conclusive answer about use of inverters for power once and for all in one location. There seems to be lack of cohesiveness about this subject. ::) :P :'( ;) 8)
A lack of cohesiveness?
CB, lets start out simple on this subject, you need to ask a specific question, general questions can't be given an accurate answer, you need to spell out how much wattage you will have and then possibly a formula on how to create that wattage and keep it going could be come up with.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on April 14, 2009, 08:45:18 AM
Yes but you're going to need a bigger computer to figure out the question. Say something as big as .... the earth.
Yep, and then you'll need some mice to run it.
I'm embarassed to say that (and this is entirely true) I once gave the answer '42' in an exam to the question "What was 'The Final Solution' "?
Jeremy
Its amazing how many Douglas Adams readers there are here. I wonder if there is a disproportional number of Douglas Adams fans among bus nuts or if there is a disproportional number of bus nuts among Douglas Adams readers. Or maybe its just a sampling error to even out some infinite improbability somewhere else in the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohesiveness ;)
Jeremy,
For years and years I've only had two correct answers....
One is 42
and the other is, "There are no bones in Ice Cream."
I DO have an observation when asked why I don't drive faster....
"If you don't like this speed, you'll really hate the other one!"
Quote from: Jeremy on April 14, 2009, 09:08:40 AM
Quote from: Lee Bradley on April 14, 2009, 08:45:18 AM
Yes but you're going to need a bigger computer to figure out the question. Say something as big as .... the earth.
Yep, and then you'll need some mice to run it.
I'm embarassed to say that (and this is entirely true) I once gave the answer '42' in an exam to the question "What was 'The Final Solution' "?
Jeremy
Ok Bob and fellow Bus nuts, This is getting deep. I feel the question of life or why am I here coming on! M&C :o
Quote from: bobofthenorth on April 14, 2009, 09:32:58 AM
Its amazing how many Douglas Adams readers there are here. I wonder if there is a disproportional number of Douglas Adams fans among bus nuts or if there is a disproportional number of bus nuts among Douglas Adams readers. Or maybe its just a sampling error to even out some infinite improbability somewhere else in the universe.
I think the board appeals to the 'techie' faction of the bus nut community and this faction tends toward SF (just as most astronauts read SF) which gets you to the late Mr. Adams and well OT.
http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/inverter_faq.html#what_it_does
What does a power inverter do, and what can I use one for?
A power inverter changes DC power from a battery into conventional AC power that you can use to operate all kinds of devices ... electric lights, kitchen appliances, microwaves, power tools, TVs, radios, computers, to name just a few. You just connect the inverter to a battery, and plug your AC devices into the inverter ... and you've got portable power ... whenever and wherever you need it.
Inverter Used with Microwave
The inverter draws its power from a 12 Volt battery (preferably deep-cycle), or several batteries wired in parallel. The battery will need to be recharged as the power is drawn out of it by the inverter. The battery can be recharged by running the coach motor, or a diesel generator, solar panels, or wind. Or you can use a battery charger plugged into an AC outlet to recharge the battery.
While we were talking about inverters i have a freedom marine 25 that has a couple bad boards from moisture where can i get them repaired thanks Richard
What does a power inverter do, and what can I use one for?
A power inverter changes DC power from a battery into conventional AC power that you can use to operate all kinds of devices ... electric lights, kitchen appliances, microwaves, power tools, TVs, radios, computers, to name just a few. You just connect the inverter to a battery, and plug your AC devices into the inverter ... and you've got portable power ... whenever and wherever you need it.
Inverter Used with Microwave
The inverter draws its power from a 12 Volt battery (preferably deep-cycle), or several batteries wired in parallel. The battery will need to be recharged as the power is drawn out of it by the inverter. The battery can be recharged by running the coach motor, or a diesel generator, solar panels, or wind. Or you can use a battery charger plugged into an AC outlet to recharge the battery.
OOPS! sorry I meant to put it all in one location,my bad! :D
The real truth is there is no "one size fits all" answer.
So to find what you seek, you need to understand some things & then must answer some other questions (there is no free lunch).
The power one ends up using is often a compromise of what is available. Sometimes, there are other options that will work as well as or better than an inverter, so one must first understand the difference between when an inverter is required or merely desired.
One must be able to recognise the viable options available before one is capable of making an intelligent choice.
Before one can make an intelligent choice for an inverter, one NEEDS to really UNDERSTAND the power source supplying the inverter.
A good read:
http://www.phrannie.org/invert.html
http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html
I thought the answer had previously been disclaimed as offshore drilling. :D
Hey NewbeeC9 is that really your picture? Or is it your daughter? Either way I want a date!!!!! :)
Oh. It's Christina.
Too bad she's too fancy for me....
This might be the answer...
http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html (http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html)
Or at least a more precise question...
8) ;D
Jeremy, I think that is absolutely brilliant. I hope the instructor saw the humor. Okay, What CB completely failed to communicate was a question he has about using inverters to power the equipment in his Ice Cream truck.
He asked this question in the chat room and was not satisfied with the answer. So he is trying to ask it here to gather more opinions. The considered opinion in the chat room was you can not take the cheapo inverters from J.C. Whitney and run the refrigerators/freezers/noisemakers etc. At least not more than a few minutes.
The inverter he purchased came with jumper cable connections and very light gauge wire. We were worried about a fire as much as equipment failure. As he alluded to in his post, Bus Warrior ( and several others ) suggested that he get a generator. It was safer, easier and an quick solution to his problem.
However CB has talked to several drivers from other trucks who have stated that most of the trucks now use inverters instead of generators because of the noise. So, if any of the real smart electrical guys want to guide CB thru the selection/installation process of using inverters instead of a generator to power the equipment in his ice cream truck, make like a chicken on a june bug and jump on it.
I am sure CB would appreciate it.
Frank
Oh, and always remember to take your towel
Quote from: bobofthenorth on April 14, 2009, 09:32:58 AM
Its amazing how many Douglas Adams readers there are here. I wonder if there is a disproportional number of Douglas Adams fans among bus nuts or if there is a disproportional number of bus nuts among Douglas Adams readers. Or maybe its just a sampling error to even out some infinite improbability somewhere else in the universe.
Quote from: Slow Rider on April 14, 2009, 01:59:17 PM
Jeremy, I think that is absolutely brilliant. I hope the instructor saw the humor. Okay, What CB completely failed to communicate was a question he has about using inverters to power the equipment in his Ice Cream truck.
He asked this question in the chat room and was not satisfied with the answer. So he is trying to ask it here to gather more opinions. The considered opinion in the chat room was you can not take the cheapo inverters from J.C. Whitney and run the refrigerators/freezers/noisemakers etc. At least not more than a few minutes.
The inverter he purchased came with jumper cable connections and very light gauge wire. We were worried about a fire as much as equipment failure. As he alluded to in his post, Bus Warrior ( and several others ) suggested that he get a generator. It was safer, easier and an quick solution to his problem.
However CB has talked to several drivers from other trucks who have stated that most of the trucks now use inverters instead of generators because of the noise. So, if any of the real smart electrical guys want to guide CB thru the selection/installation process of using inverters instead of a generator to power the equipment in his ice cream truck, make like a chicken on a june bug and jump on it.
I am sure CB would appreciate it.
Frank
Oh, and always remember to take your towel
ok I have several towels, I also am not panicking. the application is to run a 5.7 amp freezer possibly two I have a 2500-5000 watt inverter. I'm thinking of getting a cs130 170 amp alternator and installing a second external rectifier ina box with a cooling fan with a deep cycle battery to hold the charge.(the external rectifier is after market)Amazingly enough I'm watching a mit professor talking about proportions in a physics lecture. hahaha talk about irony. I would like to run a second slightly larger freezer at 9 amps. I ran my smaller generator as a test yesterday and the 1800 watt genset was a epic FAIL. Now IT IS necessary to get the 4k watt unit running again. I had the unit working last fall and have not ran it since the fuel tank melted and almost caught the whole unit on fire, fortunatly when it stopped running I went out to investigate and fuel was running all over the hot exhuast manifold and muffler(cherry red @ the time) but I think maybe it needs a new plug or something. Really not wanting to run generators as they are loud and offensive in this tree hugging city I live in, plus expense and something else to monitor all day long. so long and thanks for all the fish.
Quote from: boogiethecat on April 14, 2009, 12:33:33 PM
Hey NewbeeC9 is that really your picture? Or is it your daughter? Either way I want a date!!!!! :)
Oh. It's Christina.
Too bad she's too fancy for me....
I bet u say that to all the boys :-* ;D
Quote from: NewbeeMC9 on April 14, 2009, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: boogiethecat on April 14, 2009, 12:33:33 PM
Hey NewbeeC9 is that really your picture? Or is it your daughter? Either way I want a date!!!!! :)
Oh. It's Christina.
Too bad she's too fancy for me....
I bet u say that to all the boys :-* ;D
That's a little gay ;)
Quote from: circusboy90210 on April 14, 2009, 03:59:59 PM
... the application is to run a 5.7 amp freezer possibly two I have a 2500-5000 watt inverter. ... I would like to run a second slightly larger freezer at 9 amps. ...
OK, so now I'm not sure if you want to run a 5.7 amp unit plus a 9 amp unit, two 5.7 amp units, or two 5.7 amp units plus a 9 amp unit.
In any case, I am assuming these are the steady-state, running currents (as opposed to inrush start-up current) for the units, and that's at 120 volts.
First off, to run compressors such as those in freezers efficiently, you need a "true" sine-wave inverter. If you skimp on this and get an MSW unit, it (and the alternator, and the batteries, and the cables) will need to be at least 20% large, maybe more, the freezers will not run as cool, and you will likely burn the compressors out much sooner.
For the steady state running, you will need, for the following sizes:
One 5.7 amp freezer: 820 watts
Two 5.7 amp freezers: 1,640 watts
One 5.7 plus one 9: 2,120 watts
Two 5.7 plus one 9: 2,940 watts
If you get a sine-wave inverter with the correct capacity (as outlined above) for the steady load, you should be OK on starting current so long as the inverter's maximum rating (or surge rating) is at least double its continuous rating.
As a last comment, I suggest you actually measure the current draw of your freezers, rather than rely on specifications. You may find that they actually draw more current under the circumstances in which they operate. Remember that appliance ratings are established at a "standard" temperature (usually 70° ambient) and assume that installation instructions, including ventilation requirements and coil cleanliness, are followed to the letter.
If, in practice, it's more like 90° or 100° behind the freezer in the truck (or more), the ventilation around the condenser coils is poor, or the whole assembly is full of dust, you could find your equipment drawing a whole lot more current. This might explain the failure of the generator to run it (although I suspect it has more to do with the genny's maximum surge output being in the ~2,000 watt range, and the start-up surge of the freezers to be more like 3,000 watts).
Hope this helps.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: NewbeeMC9 on April 14, 2009, 04:05:40 PM
I bet u say that to all the boys :-* ;D
That was Meat Loaf, not Freddie Mercury
J
Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 05:04:52 PM
Quote from: circusboy90210 on April 14, 2009, 03:59:59 PM
... the application is to run a 5.7 amp freezer possibly two I have a 2500-5000 watt inverter. ... I would like to run a second slightly larger freezer at 9 amps. ...
yes this helps as one 1800 watt genset alone would not properly start up the compressor even over 4 hours and the coil cooling fan was running at 1/3 the normal speed, no noticeable cooling on the gallon jug of water in the 4 hours.( maybe a few degrees but not enought to write home about)
OK, so now I'm not sure if you want to run a 5.7 amp unit plus a 9 amp unit, two 5.7 amp units, or two 5.7 amp units plus a 9 amp unit.
In any case, I am assuming these are the steady-state, running currents (as opposed to inrush start-up current) for the units, and that's at 120 volts.
First off, to run compressors such as those in freezers efficiently, you need a "true" sine-wave inverter. If you skimp on this and get an MSW unit, it (and the alternator, and the batteries, and the cables) will need to be at least 20% large, maybe more, the freezers will not run as cool, and you will likely burn the compressors out much sooner.
For the steady state running, you will need, for the following sizes:
One 5.7 amp freezer: 820 watts
Two 5.7 amp freezers: 1,640 watts
One 5.7 plus one 9: 2,120 watts
Two 5.7 plus one 9: 2,940 watts
If you get a sine-wave inverter with the correct capacity (as outlined above) for the steady load, you should be OK on starting current so long as the inverter's maximum rating (or surge rating) is at least double its continuous rating.
As a last comment, I suggest you actually measure the current draw of your freezers, rather than rely on specifications. You may find that they actually draw more current under the circumstances in which they operate. Remember that appliance ratings are established at a "standard" temperature (usually 70° ambient) and assume that installation instructions, including ventilation requirements and coil cleanliness, are followed to the letter.
If, in practice, it's more like 90° or 100° behind the freezer in the truck (or more), the ventilation around the condenser coils is poor, or the whole assembly is full of dust, you could find your equipment drawing a whole lot more current. This might explain the failure of the generator to run it (although I suspect it has more to do with the genny's maximum surge output being in the ~2,000 watt range, and the start-up surge of the freezers to be more like 3,000 watts).
Hope this helps.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
CB, you mentioned the idea of using a 170 amp alternator to keep the battery charged. That would give a total of about 2000 watts maximum. That also assumes the alternator is built for 100% duty cycle, many (most?) aren't. Then there is the typical inverter efficiency of 85%-90%. So that would further limit the useful power to about 1750 watts. The battery could make up the difference for a little while, but unless you put in several large batteries, not for long enough.
So if you are looking at running it off of an alternator on the prime mover, it would just about have to be a 50DN. And even then there is the factor of engine RPM. An ice cream truck is going to spend a lot of its time idling. At idle an alternator doesn't generate anywhere close to its rated output.
So if others are using inverters, I suspect they have some massive battery banks that they charge at night. And if you deep cylce them daily all Summer, you will probably need a whole new set each year.
All that said, the generator makes more sense and for a fraction of what you would spend on a big pure sine inverter and batteries, you could certainly get the genny running again and build a good sound box for it to reduce the noise factor.
If he would read a little, he would understand how underpowered his power supply to the inverter is for what he wants to run. . .
http://www.phrannie.org/invert.html
http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html
Or, maybe he is too busy listening to that mit lecture . . . :o
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882715001)
Great little device for measuring how much power your appliances ACTUALLY use over time, over however long a period you choose to measure. Knowing that and the efficiency numbers of your inverter, you can do some battery life estimates and see if it works for you.
In the case of refrigerators and freezers, environmental temperature will still be a big factor in how much they run, of course.
still thinking over all even with expenses ( this genset will not last more than a month or two 4k), I will have to get something else eventually . Almost any profitable ice cream truck in town here is inverter powered, multiple freezers. Nobody is out and running so I can't ask question about specifics yet. However in fuel alone the inverter will pay for itself not to mention good will from neighbors . The only ice cream trucks that run gensets are the ghetto cream trucks that make low sales, being as they all have low prices to sell to the food stamp crowd. I allready have good neighborhoods to run in where everybody allready knows me. Also I live in a Eco warrior community, if I run gensets for too long I will be labled a social pariah for not being green enough and loose my customer base. so this will have to be a solution. from what I have found I can get a 170 amp cs 130 to run bolt in , I realize that I will have to run a couple of deep deep cycle batteries on a charger overnight but this is not a problem even if I have to run 3 or 4 of them. I have plenty of room to store them. I don't even have a problem with running two alternators if I can find brackets for doing so. What I do understand is that you can run smaller pulley's to accommodate lower idle speeds to maintain higher charging rates. I did read the two articles provided did find time to pull myself away from yet another MIT learning session. Seems like that's all I do now a day's even in my spare time.Really wanting to spend some time on deeper knowledge of developmental studies that I missed out out but I've allready progressed so far past these it's boring but necessary as to not muddy the waters in the future. I thank everyone involved in this for finally clearing the waters as far as this issue. It could have been so easy. maybe we should make a FAQ for the different issues involved in many subjects to save the hearthache in the future. :'( ;D ;) :D ::) 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: circusboy90210 on April 14, 2009, 08:32:40 PM
.Really wanting to spend some time on deeper knowledge of developmental studies that I missed out out but I've allready progressed so far past these it's boring but necessary
I stand in awe, with my jaw agape in disbelief. Mitch
Need the say more............M&C
CB,
Please don't stop with the questions now. Please don't. This so enlightening.
John
You know, I was planning a NEV (neighboorhood electric vehicle) food cart to work my local farmers market in Granolaville. I was even going to put "solar panels" on the roof--a solar powered vehicle selling lettuce. That would work, eh?
Wasn't necessarilly going to hook-up the solar panels, but was going to most definetly have an invertor generator aboard.
Please don't tell anybody, some hippies have money and I need a retirement income ::)
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on April 14, 2009, 06:54:33 PM
CB, you mentioned the idea of using a 170 amp alternator to keep the battery charged. That would give a total of about 2000 watts maximum.
Actually, a 170-amp alternator (12 volt, nominal) is good for about 2,350 watts peak.
Quote
That also assumes the alternator is built for 100% duty cycle, many (most?) aren't.
True, and this is definitely a consideration when shopping for an alternator. Also, the peak rating is only good at the specified RPM; since you will be driving at a variety of speeds and RPM's, you can not expect the peak output, even if continuously rated, at all times.
Quote
Then there is the typical inverter efficiency of 85%-90%. So that would further limit the useful power to about 1750 watts. The battery could make up the difference for a little while, but unless you put in several large batteries, not for long enough.
My wattage estimates, above, included derating for inverter efficiency. It should go without saying that the whole alternator/inverter concept requires a sizeable battery bank to carry over the periods when the engine is not running, or not running at peak RPM. That being said, you should remember that freezers do not run 100% duty cycle, either. So the batteries are charging when the compressor cycles off, and vice-versa.
Quote from: kyle4501 on April 14, 2009, 07:22:27 PM
...
http://www.phrannie.org/invert.html
http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html
...
Kyle, while I admire Fred Tinseth and all he has done to post some of his wealth of experience on his web site, and I have recommended (and continue to recommend) both of these pages as good reading for anyone building RV electrical systems, they are not the be-all and end-all on the subject.
For one thing, the inverter discussion is now horribly out of date. While much of what he has written deals with general principles and is still useful, virtually none of the models he discusses is still on the market, and improvements have been made across the boards.
The battery discussion, while interesting in its own right, is hardly relevant to the present problem, because the usage mode is so vastly different than RV deep-cycle applications. This discussion, too, is also dated, and does not account for recent improvements in battery technology.
Lastly, I always caution folks to take the AC electrical portion of the discussion with a grain of salt, as Fred seems to be confused about some key concepts of grounding.
BTW, we Stanford alums have great respect for the MIT guys when it comes to technology -- nearly our equals :), and just down the street from Harvard, the "Stanford of the East" -- but they don't know a damn thing about football. FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 10:06:16 PM
That being said, you should remember that freezers do not run 100% duty cycle, either. So the batteries are charging when the compressor cycles off, and vice-versa.
Good point. But also keep in mind the operating environment. It will be hot and the freezer doors opened often. compressor duty cycle will be high.
On CB's multiple alternator idea, can two alternators charge one battery bank without their internal regulators freaking out?
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on April 14, 2009, 10:27:32 PM
On CB's multiple alternator idea, can two alternators charge one battery bank without their internal regulators freaking out?
Yes, "but"...
The "but" being that to run two alternators against a single bank, you really have two choices. One is to set one regulator just a tad higher than the other; when the bank is depleted enough to demand the full current of both, the voltage will be below the lower set point, and both alternators will produce charging current. When the bank's voltage comes back up close to set point, eventually rising above the lower set point, that alternator will stop charging, and the other, higher set-point alternator will continue. Naturally, this method means one alternator always works more than the other. This can be evened out by swapping the set points (or just the regulators, if they are external) periodically.
The other, better, method is to use externally regulated alternators, and purchase a multi-alternator regulator designed to do exactly this. Such a regulator will call for charging from both alternators as needed. Models are available from Xantrex, Balmar, Ample Power, Electrodyne, and others.
If you do neither of these, and try instead to run two independent alternators with exactly the same set point, things will mostly work, but the alternators will be constantly competing when voltage is near the setpoint, with a "ping-pong" effect of each alternator alternately cutting in and out of charging mode. More stress on the alternator this way, and, if you have other things connected to the relay terminal of one of them, such as a tach or a no-charge light, you will see effects there, too.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Wow all this clowning around makes we wonder "when the F... did we get icecream?" ;D BK ;D
Sorry but "The Ringer" has been a popular movie choice on the bus lately for some reason. And that is by far my favorite line in the movie, and seemed very appropriate in this situation!
QuoteBTW, we Stanford alums have great respect for the MIT guys when it comes to technology -- nearly our equals , and just down the street from Harvard, the "Stanford of the East" -- but they don't know a damn thing about football. FWIW.
Gag me with a spoon Concordia 71 FVCC 72 U of M 73-74, 80-85 education quality is what one makes of it
Skip
Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 10:06:16 PM
Kyle, while I admire Fred Tinseth and all he has done to post some of his wealth of experience on his web site, and I have recommended (and continue to recommend) both of these pages as good reading for anyone building RV electrical systems, they are not the be-all and end-all on the subject.
Didn't mean to imply they were the absolute gospel, but merely a good start. Seems to me it's a good idea to understand the basics before attempting to design a custom system. . . . . Fred does a good job in exposing the magnitude of the whole system & what else
may be involved without getting too lost in the theory.
I thought the questions being asked were so remedial that without some background info, the answers wouldn't be understood.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems many look at inverters as power sources rather than 'power changers' & don't seem to understand how the whole system works & the innefficiencies involved, OR how little energy is in a battery when you're talking about these types of loads.
If it were me, I'd look into adding insulation to the chest freezers & using them as ice chests while on the road. Some large blocks of brine ice in them would help increase their thermal mass & lengthen usefall time away from the power pole. Product organization can minimize the time the freezer is open. Then all he has to do is plug in over night & refreeze the brine ice. The savings from the cost of the required inverter, battery, & alternator would require less sales before breaking even . . .
Quote from: poppi on April 15, 2009, 06:56:26 AM
Gag me with a spoon
Skip, that was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek response to the "MIT lecture" comment. I guess if it has to be explained, it's not humorous.
-Sean
Quote from: kyle4501 on April 15, 2009, 07:21:30 AM
... how little energy is in a battery when you're talking about these types of loads.
If it were me, I'd look into adding insulation to the chest freezers & using them as ice chests while on the road. Some large blocks of brine ice in them would help increase their thermal mass & lengthen usefall time away from the power pole. Product organization can minimize the time the freezer is open. Then all he has to do is plug in over night & refreeze the brine ice. The savings from the cost of the required inverter, battery, & alternator would require less sales before breaking even . . .
I couldn't agree more on both points Kyle.
On the freezer alternatives, even if he used dry ice, it would be cheaper than the inverter/battery bank needed to do such a thing.
Beyond the equipment cost, even charging via alternator off the engine is not "free", all that heavily loaded idling is going to increase fuel consumption significantly I would think. And I don't know for certain, but it seems that the extended periods of the lateral pull of a heavily loaded alternator at idle might even cause added wear to the crankshaft bearings, at least the front one. I suppose if you could connect two of them as Sean outlined and mount them exactly opposite each other, that would remove that concern.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on April 15, 2009, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: kyle4501 on April 15, 2009, 07:21:30 AM
... how little energy is in a battery when you're talking about these types of loads.
If it were me, I'd look into adding insulation to the chest freezers & using them as ice chests while on the road. Some large blocks of brine ice in them would help increase their thermal mass & lengthen usefall time away from the power pole. Product organization can minimize the time the freezer is open. Then all he has to do is plug in over night & refreeze the brine ice. The savings from the cost of the required inverter, battery, & alternator would require less sales before breaking even . . .
I couldn't agree more on both points Kyle.
...
I actually agree with you, and I would add that for efficiency, simplicity, and cost, if I needed to freeze stuff in a moving truck, I would use an engine-driven cold plate system. But the thread topic was inverters, and I assume folks will open this thread to learn about inverters, not cold plates (or generators, for that matter). I don't have the first clue about the economics or business model of an ice cream truck, so I'm not the one to tell him not to do it -- only how, and what it might cost (somewhere north of $3k, I'd figure, by the time you add up batteries, inverter, charger, cables, alternator, and whatever miscellaneous bits are needed for a complete installation).
I would hope that everyone visiting would find something to take away from this kind of thread, even if where it leads is for the OP to decide on a completely different strategy.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean,
It was taken in that vain...........
Just don't always understand all the hoopla....Last time I bought from a ice cream vender rig it was as a boy
in Spokane and he had a real cool Harley cop trike with the back converted as a cooler. Used dry ice to keep things
cold all day.......pretty green in my book plus cool tricks with the dry ice :)
Skip
OK so where is a good place to get custom brackets for a second alternator fabricated?? also thinking of running this as a separate 24 volt system if possible to charge3 3 or4 deep cycle batteries that are not connected to anything but the devices to be powered. If 24 volt inverter prices prove to be inconvenient then I will roll with 12 volt alternator. seeing as a custom bracket is involved then this will open up possibility's for more alternator choices. I"m guessing grounding issues would limit me to a 12 volt alternator. thank you very much.
Well, first of all, I apologize for my snide remarks earlier. However, your subject line and initial question did invite some sarcastic responses.
That said, I also believe that a generator makes far more sense and would probably cost less that any inverter setup.
If you know people who are successfully using inverters for this purpose then I suggest that you check them out and let us know what you find.
I think the Honda 4000 watt liquid cooled RV generator would probably last 8-10,000 hours if you changed the oil every week.
If you are still locked in to inverters then I suggest you temporarily use a generator for a week and use a P3 Kill A Watt meter http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html to monitor all your electrical use.
I would also install a hour meter on the main engine so you can see how many hours it is actually running in the course of a normal work day.
Keep in mind your electrical load will be considerably higher in August than it is in April.
Once you have that data it should be easy to convert kilowatt hours to battery amp hours.
As to custom brackets, you will have to get the alternator first, figure out where you are going to mount it, then find a local fab shop to build something. I would think the circus community must have lots of welder/fabricators around.
There is no grounding issue with a separate 24 volt system, in fact, I would recommend it. The only draw back is that all your 12 volt devices, exterior lights, music etc. will have to run off the main truck system.
nobody is out running yet as far as trucks worth copying their technique. :'( I"m also far away from any shows or show folk at the moment who would have resources to help me. I have also went swimming with a phone since I left the shows and all my contacts are erased. :'( so I''m on my own for now. :P 8)
Hmmm!!! Guess no one knows where to get an inverter fixed just how to get icecream hot!!!
I think that the cohesive answer is you need one unless you don't and it should be Pure Sine Wave unless its not. Also it should charge your batteries unless you don't have any. When you do thjis the way you need to do it then you should get a generator just to make sure.
Quote from: poohbear on April 15, 2009, 03:54:14 PM
Hmmm!!! Guess no one knows where to get an inverter fixed just how to get icecream hot!!!
What part of the country are you located in? I had our Marine Freedom 25 repairred at a place in Sarasota, Fl. I do not know if they will just sell parts. If you live along a coast, check some of the large marine electronics dealers. Thats is the type of place that repaired mine. Jack
Thanks Jack;
i am in the pacific northwest in northern Idaho so i will try in Seatle
Poohbear,
You might contact Timothy Stettler at the Spokane community College.
They have an electronics repair series and he may know more the local
scene for repairs on your inverter.
Quotefundamentals of electrical safety, electrical and electronic repair, basic hy- ...... wind, photovoltaic, hydro-generators, inverters, ...... Spokane Community College. Scott Stidham. Electro Mechanical Technology. General Electrician License
from there catalog :)
Skip
Quote from: JackConrad on April 16, 2009, 05:11:20 AM
Quote from: poohbear on April 15, 2009, 03:54:14 PM
Hmmm!!! Guess no one knows where to get an inverter fixed just how to get icecream hot!!!
What part of the country are you located in? I had our Marine Freedom 25 repairred at a place in Sarasota, Fl. I do not know if they will just sell parts. If you live along a coast, check some of the large marine electronics dealers. That's is the type of place that repaired mine. Jack
hey jack ever hang out at marina jacks in srq? how is cafe caldi? what's that coffee shop owned by that Jewish guy named Joe ?? he used to be on orange over my rosemary court with the hippy commune.
OK so I was thinking of putting some heavy metal plates about 3" thick along the bottom of the freezer and running it over night??? would this be a good way to do a homemade "plate" freezer and not have to worry about either one, genset or alternator, or could this just be a good way of relieving the need for the inverter to work as often??? just a though. hakuna matata. ;D ;) ::) 8)
How much of this steel plate would you plan on using? I would think you would need a decent amount to provide the cooling you want. With 3" steel plate weighing about 125 lbs/sq ft, this should be interesting.
See my original post.
You'd be done by now and ready to sell ice cream.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Selling Ice cream is not the point BW. Talking about selling ice cream is the point lol
Quote from: letz4wheel on April 17, 2009, 12:15:42 AM
Selling Ice cream is not the point BW. Talking about selling ice cream is the point lol
Exactly.
Several years ago, a buddy of mine mentioned his wife got all ticked off at him and he couldn't understand why. He said she came home one day and told him she needed advice on a problem she was having at work. He listened for a moment and gave her a clear concise solution that was spot on. She stormed off. I explained that although she SAID she needed a solution, all she really wanted to do was talk about the situation. The fact that he solved it before she could fully vent frustrated her. He went back to his wife, had the lengthy discussion, came to the same conclusion, and she was thrilled!
Waaiit a minute!!!... ??? ???
Are you saying this is some sort of "Group Therapy"? :o I thought we were just clowning around, not really nuts. ::)
Quote from: WEC4104 on April 17, 2009, 05:37:48 AM
Quote from: letz4wheel on April 17, 2009, 12:15:42 AM
Selling Ice cream is not the point BW. Talking about selling ice cream is the point lol
Exactly.
Several years ago, a buddy of mine mentioned his wife got all ticked off at him and he couldn't understand why. He said she came home one day and told him she needed advice on a problem she was having at work. He listened for a moment and gave her a clear concise solution that was spot on. She stormed off. I explained that although she SAID she needed a solution, all she really wanted to do was talk about the situation. The fact that he solved it before she could fully vent frustrated her. He went back to his wife, had the lengthy discussion, came to the same conclusion, and she was thrilled!
Right,
call me when we reach that point.
I got stuff to do.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: WEC4104 on April 16, 2009, 05:29:45 PM
How much of this steel plate would you plan on using? I would think you would need a decent amount to provide the cooling you want. With 3" steel plate weighing about 125 lbs/sq ft, this should be interesting.
I tried to look up figures on how much "heat" plate steel retains to no end as to try to reduce need for running the genset as much during the day. no answers. I worked allday finding auxilary fuel tank for the genset and getting it bolted down to the bumper. fuel fittings were the hardest things to find. however I'm now ready, I will be going to Sam's club tomorrow. gettingthis thing to start was hell as priming the system and working the gunk out of the system took that mechanic many pulls of the cord. changed the sparking plug air filter is fine, will be changing the oil tomorrow. next step getting the towing equipment welded together and bolt holes in place for the bolting together. I will be junking this travel trailer for i'ts goodies as soon as I find a suitable shell. I've been seeing some pretty good units uner $20 that arent over 15 years old and might have good power plants.
It's a sad state of affairs when we have nothing better to do with our time than bait people into unanswerable puzzles. And it's even worse when we are so bored we allow ourselves to be baited by them.
For a bunch of folks whose combined knowledge of buses may be unrivaled we sure like to bite at them shiny minnows.
If this hasn't become off topic and pointless.... then I truly don't think we should have an off topic area anymore.
Circusboy. We are not all fooled
Quote from: RickB on April 18, 2009, 08:21:42 AM
It's a sad state of affairs when we have nothing better to do with our time than bait people into unanswerable puzzles. And it's even worse when we are so bored we allow ourselves to be baited by them.
For a bunch of folks whose combined knowledge of buses may be unrivaled we sure like to bite at them shiny minnows.
If this hasn't become off topic and pointless.... then I truly don't think we should have an off topic area anymore.
Circusboy. We are not all fooled
rick that is highly offensive to say that. these are not unanswerable. just you don't know the answer, I"m not into baiting anybody into any thing. I think you owe me an apology Ty. legitimate question on how to solve a question. Thank god you don't represent everybody, people who also need to know appreciate my "stupid" questions. The question your don't ask is the stupid one. I'm always on a quest for knowledge and this place is about sharing it , so take a chill pill OK?? :)