Interesting afternoon.
I want to put in a remote start panel for the Onan Quiet Diesel I put in last summer. There's a plug hanging out of the unit to which you can connect a harness, and they make a pretty nice panel which has gauges for oil pressure, water temp, and volts, along with an hour meter and the start switch. Of course, I can't buy this stuff directly from Onan, so I decided to try to
get one through Camping World. After the last time I had them order something for me from Onan, I knew it was highly unlikely I was going to be able to afford the panel, but I was hopeful
they wouldn't rape me too bad on the harness pigtail.
So while I'm waiting to be helped, I hear a teleconference in progress. Seems the company president or CEO was holding a teleconference with all 27 stores. It was 3:00 in the afternoon, and the employees were busy, so in order to listen to the conference, they had the phone on the service desk on speaker. So I'm sitting here listening to the president of Camping World telling all his stores about how their sales were only off 13% in the first 3 months compared to 60%-70% for the rest of the industry, but that they had just been given an extension on their debt for 9 months, and if that hadn't happened they would have been in default and all kinds of bad things would have happened. It was just so much BS that I've heard over and over again from the higher ups to try to rally everyone to sell more, do more, give more to the company so I can continue to take my huge salary and bonus. He emphasized that if they took care of their customers and worked diligently with their suppliers they would be successful. Blah! Blah! Blah!
Meanwhile the lady is trying to figure out how to call Onan to see if they have the parts I want. I had already done the legwork and written down the Onan part numbers. She finally got through, and I noted the numbers she was writing down for each part. After she got off the phone, she struggled for several minutes with the computer trying to print me a quote for the parts. I guess she couldn't just tell me how much they were, like I asked.
So finally, she presents me with a piece of paper. As I suspected, the parts had been marked up 100%. The panel was over $190, and the pigtail was over $20. The funny thing is they would have been drop shipped directly to me from Onan. All CW would have to do was make a phone call. I knew this was probably going to happen, as it's the same as happened last year on some other items I had to get for the generator. I figured the panel would be too expensive, but was hoping I could get the pigtail for a somewhat reasonable price, but it just wasn't to be.
I thanked her nicely for her time, and let her know that the extreme markup meant I wouldn't be ordering any of the parts. As I left, I was thinking to myself that I'm glad I'm not employed by Camping World. There's obviously some problems going on in the corporation with cash flow and credit, and my take on the president's speech was that they are heading into some major trouble if they can't turn it around. My thoughts were that they just lost another sale because of their greedy pricing policies.
In the end, I'll spend about $10 for a set of 7 prong trailer connectors, modify the pigtail on the generator, and build my own remote panel with off the shelf gauges and switches. Oh, I can get an hour meter for about $3 at the surplus store. They wanted $35 for the Onan one.
It's not looking real good for Camping World. I suspect within 6 months they will be closing some of their stores. There were maybe 6 people in the store today. Some were having work done on their RV. I don't think anyone bought anything in the half hour or so that I was there.
On a side note, they had some LP leak detectors which include the shutoff solenoid on clearance for about half of what I paid for mine. I almost bought the two on the shelf to offer them to other bus nuts who might need them. I guess if anyone needs one, I might be convinced to go back over there. It's only about 10 miles away.
Gumpy,
I'll take one of those but I don't want to take you out of your way by 20 miles. Or is that a gallon of gas for you? Thank you for your offer and I hope it can be worked out.
Thanks,
John
I will shed no tears when Affinity goes under. Good Sam inundated us with so much junk mail, it took us five years to "quit" -- sort of like a cult.
I doubt Steve Adams will be holding a tin cup on a Hollywood street corner; this is really reaping what he sowed. JMO, FWIW, etc.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Hmmm, interesting? The Camping World in Ft. Myers has purchased a large RV dealership just down the interstate (same exit, other side of I-75). We rarely go to Camping World, but have noticed much fewer cars in their parking lot. Jack
Bigger is not always better and the pendulum always swings. I look for Ace Hardwares - on Monday I walked into the one in Cottonwood, AZ. Its some kind of new big box format, none of the mom & pop atmosphere that I expect from Ace and the service in this one was crap. I stood in line for 10 minutes waiting to check out - felt like I was at WallyMart. We used to look for Camping World stores when we travelled but now they are a last resort. Wouldn't surprise me one little bit if they went T.U.
Gumpy, I may have one in my garage. Not sure if it is the one you are looking for. If intrested I can get a pic. Tom Y
You may want to try these people..
I have gotten good service for parts from them...
http://www.onanindiana.com/
Dave...
It seems like the sign of the times. The big box stores act like their the only game in town. All for one and none for all. We will just have to show them they are not. All the Best, M&C
Quote from: Tom Y on April 08, 2009, 04:46:37 PM
Gumpy, I may have one in my garage. Not sure if it is the one you are looking for. If intrested I can get a pic. Tom Y
Which part? The control panel or the wiring pigtail?
craig
I keep trying to understand why profitable companys have so much debt? I belive the ansewer would be the key to a financial windfall for me!!
On the bright side, people like us are very lucky, if push comes to shove you can manufacture your own panel from bits and pieces and cobb together a new connector! So many people out there dont have a clue.
You could try Bobs RV surplus in FL, They may have something. I cant find the contact info, maybe someone else will post it. Bob died but I understand it is still open. Jim
Googles wonderful!!! Bob's Used RV Parts. High Springs, FL (386) 454-5733
Gumpster - is this what your looking for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RV-ONAN-Quiet-Diesel-Remote-Start-028-00008-meter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem160326688624QQitemZ160326688624QQptZMotorsQ5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
We have a local hardware store that is family owned and has a tremendous selection of hardware. I had a neighbor put up a gate for me a while back and told him to pick up the gate. He sadly said he could not find one at Lowes and Home Depot which by the way is 25 miles away. I asked if checked with the local store and he did not. Guess what they had one and it was half the cost of the big box stores. Always support the local mom and pop stores first and shop the billionaires store last regardless of cost. It's just good business and we need them to be there.
Quote from: niles500 on April 08, 2009, 05:46:18 PM
Gumpster - is this what your looking for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RV-ONAN-Quiet-Diesel-Remote-Start-028-00008-meter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem160326688624QQitemZ160326688624QQptZMotorsQ5fRVQ5fTrailerQ5fCamperQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Close. And that's a pretty good price on that one. I will consider it.
I was looking for the one that has the 3 gauges on it. The generator didn't come with any gauges, so you have to rely on it's built in sensors to protect it. I'd prefer to have the oil pressure, water temp and volts displayed somewhere.
Quote from: Airbag on April 08, 2009, 05:47:12 PM
We have a local hardware store that is family owned and has a tremendous selection of hardware. I had a neighbor put up a gate for me a while back and told him to pick up the gate. He sadly said he could not find one at Lowes and Home Depot which by the way is 25 miles away. I asked if checked with the local store and he did not. Guess what they had one and it was half the cost of the big box stores. Always support the local mom and pop stores first and shop the billionaires store last regardless of cost. It's just good business and we need them to be there.
I have a hardware store a mile and a half away and the big box stores within five miles or less. The only time I go to the hardware store is if I need a nut or bolt or if I don't the time to drive the 3 1/2 miles to big box. For probably 98% of the items the big box stores are less expensive and often dramatically so. $15 for an abrasive blade at hardware store and $5 for the same item at the big box.
The local lumberyards for the most part treat you like a leper if you aren't a contractor. I guess if I lived 25 miles from the big box I would go to the local guy a lot more.
Craig
I have not looked into getting a valve yet but if you decide to go back I may be interested in one. Up to you I know how these motivational speeches from the president can be I been through three of them this year myself. One today as a matter of a fact!!!
John
I haven't been to a Camping World in several years. I found their prices high and found more choices at local and box stores. I do support the local mom and pop but they are closing up the doors too, can't compete with the buying power of the big guys. If I can't find what I need when I need it I wait until I find a good deal, that's why it's been almost six years and I'm not finished yet! ::)
~Paul~
That and about half of dozen other outfits that only seem to want to part you from your money. That and also that my Post Office person would breathe a sigh of relief. HB of CJ :) :) :)
Craig, I will send a pic off site as I can not get it to go here. Tom Y
We're so far away from anything like camping world we become dependant on shipping, I found a bracket that mounts on the side of the bus and holds our BBQ grill, in the catalog the bracket is 7.99, shipping and handling is 12 dollars, I said forget it, I'll make my own.
I agree with all that has been said concerning RV parts, AARP, Good Sam, Camping World, etc.
Cat and I have been discussing the viability of opening an online RV parts store specifically directed at the bus/truck and van conversion enthusiast.
We have at least one supplier now that we deal with on a regular basis, and the possibility of two others.
We wouldn't be looking to make a killing like CW or some other places do, but we would have to have a decent markup. From what we've seen so far, We could almost offer a lot of the same merchandise that CW does, and even with shipping to your address still have it price match closely.
Does anyone have any input on the viability of this, and maybe some input on what types of products the conversion enthusiast would like to see in an on line catalog?
Dallas
Dallas, Camping World isn't making a killing if they are losing money. It is expensive to run a retail store, particularly for things that aren't exactly mass market.
The Camping World in Rogers, MN has rarely ever had more than a handful of shoppers the times I have been there.
If you can run it strictly online and work out drop shipping with your suppliers, I would say it is worth a try. Don't forget to get business liability insurance though just in case someone finds a way to hurt themselves with something they bought from you.
Brian, you are exactly right about retailers like Camping World. They have a sky high gross margin of profit, but also have very high operating expenses maintaining the stores and inventory. But if someone operated a parts business via drop shippers, they wouldn't need retail space or inventory overhead.
Brian,
There is a big difference between losing money and not making the profit that was forecast by the bean counters.
Many companies declare a loss if they don't make more money in one quarter than they did in the previous quarter. Now, if you were the PTB at your own retail business and the business didn't make as much money as you thought it should, would you:
Declare a loss?
Cut employee wages?
Lay off employees?
Cut your own wages?
Declare bankruptcy and shut down the business?
Reorganize into a leaner more cost efficient business?
If you saw the costs of some of these items to purchase, even having to buy via a wholesaler, and what Camping World sells it for, you would raise two or three eyebrows.
Quote from: belfert on April 09, 2009, 10:18:39 AM
Dallas, Camping World isn't making a killing if they are losing money. It is expensive to run a retail store, particularly for things that aren't exactly mass market.
The Camping World in Rogers, MN has rarely ever had more than a handful of shoppers the times I have been there.
What about if you only have one eyebrow lol.
Quote from: Dallas on April 09, 2009, 11:00:19 AM
Brian,
There is a big difference between losing money and not making the profit that was forecast by the bean counters.
Many companies declare a loss if they don't make more money in one quarter than they did in the previous quarter.
I'm no accountant but I'm sure that can't be correct - if you make a profit but declare a loss you'd find yourself charged with tax evasion for a start.
What is true is that for shortish period of time there are things you can do to turn an actual profit into a paper loss should you so wish, but 'declaring a loss' is not generally something that a company wants to do, especially if they have investors, creditors etc.
On the subject of starting a drop-shipping-based online company - sure, it can be done, but so what? Starting the company is the easy bit - it's selling the stock which is difficult. Online retailing (and I do it for a living) is not the Field of Dreams "Build It And They Will Come" scenario that so many people assume. The point is that unless you have a USP of some sort (and a physical store is a very good USP in that location) you will simply be yet another 'me too' drop-shipper, cutting your profits to the bone to compete with every other drop-shipper for the tiny number of customers willing to take the risk of buying from someone they've never heard of.
The internet's a difficult place to live - low barriers to entry mean you can compete with everyone, but everyone can compete with you. The trick is to find a way of getting customers, and then find a way of preventing other companies from doing the same thing.
Jeremy
Interesting thoughts on declaring a profit or loss. I defer to your expert opinion, (I'm not an accountant either). However, you may want to look at companies like British Petroleum, Shell, and many other large corporations.
The oil companies yelled about loss of profits when the price of oil went to over $100/barrel.... except they never actually "Lost" a single penny. The cost increase is always passed on to the consumer. The same for power utilities in the US (many built by the ACE)... They build power stations and infrastructure, paid for by the consumer. Then when there is a major disaster and the power plant or the infrastructure is damaged, the utility raises it's rates in order to pay for those repairs or upgrades. Interestingly, If I tried to do that in a normal B&M mom and pop retail store, I would quickly end up shutting the doors from lack of business.
On the subject of starting a drop-shipping-based online company - sure, it can be done, but so what? Starting the company is the easy bit - it's selling the stock which is difficult. Online retailing (and I do it for a living) is not the Field of Dreams "Build It And They Will Come" scenario that so many people assume. The point is that unless you have a USP of some sort (and a physical store is a very good USP in that location) you will simply be yet another 'me too' drop-shipper, cutting your profits to the bone to compete with every other drop-shipper for the tiny number of customers willing to take the risk of buying from someone they've never heard of.
The internet's a difficult place to live - low barriers to entry mean you can compete with everyone, but everyone can compete with you. The trick is to find a way of getting customers, and then find a way of preventing other companies from doing the same thing.
Personally, I said nothing about drop shipping. I had already discarded that idea after a recent experience with Amazon.com in which I was led to believe that an item would reach me within a few days when what they actually meant was that it would be
shipped in 2-3 days. It actually was to take over 2 weeks to arrive. I don't want anything to do with that method. I have an alternate plan.
I also mentioned that this service would be geared toward the
Conversion Enthusiast, not your run of the mill RVer. there aren't too many companies that cater to our needs.
I also have no plan to make a living off of this little idea, it is more of a way to find the products we as a community need and offer them at a convenient fair price.
Oh, and we already have a small brick and mortar store where we work where we deal with much in the way of RV parts and supplies. We are in the process of expanding our stock at this time in order to supply the oil field and power plant workers in this area that live full time in RVs.
Dallas
Quote from: Jeremy on April 09, 2009, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: Dallas on April 09, 2009, 11:00:19 AM
Brian,
There is a big difference between losing money and not making the profit that was forecast by the bean counters.
Many companies declare a loss if they don't make more money in one quarter than they did in the previous quarter.
I'm no accountant but I'm sure that can't be correct - if you make a profit but declare a loss you'd find yourself charged with tax evasion for a start.
What is true is that for shortish period of time there are things you can do to turn an actual profit into a paper loss should you so wish, but 'declaring a loss' is not generally something that a company wants to do, especially if they have investors, creditors etc.
On the subject of starting a drop-shipping-based online company - sure, it can be done, but so what? Starting the company is the easy bit - it's selling the stock which is difficult. Online retailing (and I do it for a living) is not the Field of Dreams "Build It And They Will Come" scenario that so many people assume. The point is that unless you have a USP of some sort (and a physical store is a very good USP in that location) you will simply be yet another 'me too' drop-shipper, cutting your profits to the bone to compete with every other drop-shipper for the tiny number of customers willing to take the risk of buying from someone they've never heard of.
The internet's a difficult place to live - low barriers to entry mean you can compete with everyone, but everyone can compete with you. The trick is to find a way of getting customers, and then find a way of preventing other companies from doing the same thing.
Jeremy
Dallas.
"Oh, and we already have a small brick and mortar store where we work "
Sounds like you have settled in for awhile....:)
Where I am I have to do a lot of online catalog shopping for my bus stuff............
I never know if what I am getting has any quality to it.......if you could include some form of quality life expentancy rating
I know it would help me make decisions..........
Skip
My background is entirely in direct marketing (through paper catalogues before the web came along), so I absolutely agree with your idea of targetting a market niche (eg bus converters) that is currently not being served well by existing suppliers. The point I was making was more to do with choosing the internet as a method of reaching that niche - simply put, even if you suceed in getting a potential customer to visit your website, they are only ever a Google-search away from a cheaper supplier.
But that is not to rubbish the basic idea at all - as I say, it can and will work if you can find a way of differentiating yourself so that you are not simply competing on price - I realise this is obvious, but most of this thread seemed to be about buying items below Camping World's prices. If you can at least match your competitor's prices and compete in other areas (unique products, better product knowledge, customer service, reputation, installation or repair services etc) then you should succeed. But make sure that you don't sell yourself too cheaply - even if you aren't looking for much of a net profit you still need a healthy gross profit margin just to survive.
Jeremy
Thanks Jeremy, I knew where you were coming from, I guess I'm just in one of those moods, maybe because it's so darn cold and windy here today, it's only 79°F. I may have to get the long underwear back out again.
We've taken this thread way off the original topic and I apologize for that. The next post will be it's own in the OT section.
Skip... all the parts and pieces we are going to sell will be either new or factory refurbished. Mostly the same stock as CW or any of the other RV supply stores, plus parts from places the specialize in electrical, plumbing, electronic etc.
Hopefully this little idea will come to more than just a dream, and we can get it set up soon.
Cody... In the land of no eyebrows, the one eyebrowed man is weird! ::)
I purchase a lot of 'stuff' online.
I would purchase a lot more online IF the shipping were resonable!
And I don't care if the part costs $1.00 or $100.00; if it is a small part with little weight it should not cost $7.00 plus dollars to ship it.
Just my two cents!
Jack
Jack, its not so much that the shipping is high, its that your money is WORTHLESS!!>>>Dan
Apologises if this is going further off-topic...
The subject of shipping costs is something I am very sensitive to in my business, especially as for me the shipping costs can be higher than the goods value to some destinations. I have always used a strict weight-only basis for shipping simply out of 'fairness to the customer' - unfortunately it is an undeniable fact that over-charging for shipping is a fundamental part of many online retailer's business models. For instance, I have analysed the Amazon Marketplace system and found that the profit made from the shipping charge is the only profit Amazon make on the transaction (there's no percentage commission on selling price or whatever). What's more it is also the only profit many of the sellers make as well (ie. all those sellers selling second-hand books at 1p each). The postage 'profit' is in reality simply a fixed commission charge on each sale, split in a pre-arranged ratio between Amazon and the seller. Is this fair? You could easily argue it is fairer than 1p sellers on eBay who can charge even more for postage - at least Amazon's postage rates are fixed at a reasonable-ish level.
Jeremy
PS. I am currently collecting quotes for my own Marketplace system for my business (allowing people to list their magazines for sale on our sites). If there are any PHP programmers reading this who want a copy of the tender inviatation documents let me know (seriously)
Some interesting comments here. I especially liked the comments about the profits and to cost to buy the stuff.
Here's something more interesting about this whole thread. I had a couple people tell me they were interested in getting the LP sensor/solenoid system I mentioned, so I went back over there today and purchased the two they had on the shelf. I noticed that a lot of the clearance stuff had stickers indicating other stores. I figure CW bought out the stock of some of their competitors after they failed. Fair enough. So most of the stuff in clearance was not packaged as the CW stuff is, or they don't stock that particular part (these LP units, for example).
Now I purchased the exact same setup for my bus about 5 years ago. The same CCI LP detector, and the solenoid. However, I didn't get them in a kit, but separately, so didn't get the little nipple and fused wiring that came in the kit. I had a friend order them from Coast because he had a business account, so I got them for wholesale. I paid right at $80 for the two items that are in this kit. After buying the two units, I peeled back the stickers and saw one from a Holiday RV or some such place. The price tag said $150.
My two bus friends got a really good deal on these parts.
Note that CW doesn't carry the solenoid or CCI unit that operates the solenoid. They have some LP detectors that start at $60.
Is it any wonder these places are going out of business with price markups like that?
100% markup is also known as 50% gross profit margin and is very common in retail. If you shop the non food part of a supermarket, you are paying that or higher. Even many departments at Wally World have that profit level.
Direct store delivery products are the real profit center for retailers (especially supermarkets, supercenters and convenience stores). The manufacturer/distributor handles all the expense of getting the product on the shelf, then bills the retailer on a 30 day net payable that usually get's paid the last day or even get's stretched to 45 days. Then they are credited back for any damaged or expired products and credits are generally taken instantly. On food DSD departments the inventory usually turns in well under 30 days, so the retailer isn't actually carrying the inventory expense.
Anytime a sale or ad is run on the product, it is the result of the supplier giving a discount. And the retailer reduces the retail slightly less than the wholesale was reduced so as to preserve their percent margin (for example, the retailer gets 25 cents off on something, they will run the sale at 15-20 cents off. If there is an in store demo, the supplier paid for the labor, the samples and an extra "administrative fee" to the retailer (ranges $75-$250 per store per event).
So on DSD products the store has no direct investment in them, no inventory expense, no labor expense, no promotional expense and no spoil/damage loss. Yet they still demand a 35%-50% gross margin (roughly 50% to 100% markup). By far, the largest slice of the profit pie.
For those who would like info on Bob's Used RV Parts
Number is 386-454-5733
23486S US Hwy 441
High Springs Fl 32643
Mrbill
Dallas,
As the lead guy in the "shoot-everybody-that-posts-anything-off-topic-here-gang", I don't think this is off topic.
Anything that educates us on busing for less money is good..... except for the Prevost guys who already have plenty of money :D
TOM
Jeremy,
I know that sometimes shipping just does cost more that the part. However, I have had a couple of experiences with ordering a cheap $8 electical part, being charged $13 for shipping, and having it arrive in an envelope with a simple first class stamp on it.
Lin, that's what I am talking about!
Jack
Not OT for me thanks Craig
John
I can't think of anyone that I would rather buy a bus related part from than another bus nut, especially one that seems to know which end of the wrench goes onto the bolt. Years ago when you went into the mom and pop hardware store and asked for a part or a tool you not only got the tool but you also got information that was based on personal experience or real knowledge. While there is nothing I enjoy more than going into wally world and asking a technical question in electronics and watching them adlib or stammer, at times we all need real information, at least I do lol. This goes directly along with the idea of busnuts helping busnuts, if an electical guru rolls up his sleeves and tackles joes wiring problem and the mechancial wizard crawls into the engine compartment of bills bus and the sawdust guy redoes the kitchen drawer that is coming apart for mary, then the whole bus community benefits.
Cody,
The problem is that some of those folks at Wally or HD can adlib very convincingly. No telling what manner of havoc they might cause.
Kind of like when the new tech at the electric company I worked for called me at 03:00 with the complaint that his computer wouldn't come on.
After the usual questions, (I assumed he knew how to plug one in), I started asking the basic questions... What's it plugged in to?
The surge suppressor What's the surge suppressor plugged in to?
The UPS What's the UPS plugged in to?
The SURGE SUPPRESSOR! Hmmm, does this lead you to believe that you need to change a plug somewhere?
What do you mean? Ahhh, Geeez! I hung up.
Quote from: Len Silva on April 10, 2009, 06:00:04 AM
Cody,
The problem is that some of those folks at Wally or HD can adlib very convincingly. No telling what manner of havoc they might cause.
Dallas...I just noticed the little tag line that says, "Real motors rattle!"
Way kool.
If this is OT...oh well! ;D
Jack
Dallas, I thought about your idea some last evening. Jack Daniels and Big John Daniels think you ought to try it. When we purchase from you, we would also get the correct advice and directions on installation. Much as we do from Nick and Luke. Are you going to get rich? Probably not money wise, but in our stage of life who cares. It would be fulfilling to pass along the knowledge you have to the newer generation. It also would take up some of your"spare" time. Is it worth trying, Why not?
Jack and Big john
Years back we had a supplier for us bus people it was named ABCO and you bought a membership any one know what happen to it.I bought a few things from the outfit then it disappeared it was a shame they had good prices on conversion parts they were usually 1/2 of what the RV dealer charged. starting to show my age now guys lol
Most of us Scenicruiser guys have a kool little system for obtaining parts...bartering!
Jack
Wow, good thread. However, it sure hits close to home.
As most of you know we have a business that does not have a store front. Folks would think that because of that, we should make a good profit. Just NOT SO.
Most folks have no idea what costs are involved in running a business. We have to pay things like unemployment taxes even though I am the only "employee". We have to pay freight to us for our product, and many times our competition will not allow us to charge shipping. Speaking of shipping, we have a fixed weekly charge from UPS even if we don't ship. Because we are small, our credit card charges are at the 5% level and again, we have a fixed monthly charge. We have a fixed charge for our website and e-store. Then there is postage, printing, travel to trade shows, insurance (I can't afford the $5-10K per year for the proper coverage, but still have to lay out about $1K per year for related business insurance), advertising and the list goes on!!!! Oh, and then there is the product returns that we have to eat, because the manufacturer denies credit.
We have a reasonable margin on our own product, but even there we have not begun to pay off the development cost of over $10K. On our other products or margin is from 30-50%. sound like a good margin, look at the list above and you will see why we should have shut our doors a long time ago. For a long time, we supported the business with our own funds, but that has tanked, so we are selling some of our "toys" to be able to hang on.
Bus folks are really fun to deal with, but they are not a large market. They are loyal to suppliers who are a part of the group (thanks for the purchases guys!!!!), but most of us struggle to get the funds for the next bus project and just can not justify purchasing all of the various products that we vendors offer.
Craig, the CCI unit you have, is the same one I sell with my system (so that the propane can be shut off in the event of a fire). I tried contacting them to get a few more for my inventory, but they have gone out of business from everything I can tell (website no longer available, phone disconnected). Just another sign of the times.
Sorry about the downer message, but the only way to become a millionaire in the bus or RV market is to start off as a multi-millionaire.
"Speaking of shipping, we have a fixed weekly charge from UPS even if we don't ship."
That's why I probably won't be starting a 'bidness' anytime soon. BS like that!
Come to think of it there are a lot of things I might purchase that I don't because I don't like paying the sometimes high shipping charges! And I am not talking about paying $7.00 shipping for a $3.00 part...it's like the post above...if the $3.00 part has some bulk or weight I expect to pay...however not when it goes in a first class envelope and gets a stamp or two!
Don't get me wrong, I expect to pay for shipping...I just don't like to pay 'too' much!
And RVSafetyman...I am not bashing you in any way with this post.
Jack
rv_safety - Nicely put. It does annoy me how so many people seem to think a 50% profit margin is unscrupulous, if not borderline criminal, when in reality it often barely covers the businessman's costs. Oddly enough though the people who think that have invariably never been in business themselves.
Jeremy
Jack, I fully understand.
I thought long and hard about posting my previous comments. I too, want to make sure I did not offend any of the readers. My intent is to let folks know that it is really hard to run a business and make a profit. I worked as an engineer for a big company all my life. I thought I had a good idea and thought how hard can it be to "set up shop" :o :o. Well, five years later, I am a lot smarter (and that is a relative statement ;)).
On my long list of expenses, I left of a lot of items. Most of these expenses are not a huge deal if you spread the cost over lots of sales. In our case, we tend to carry rather expensive products and the sales are not large.
Dallas, if you can get into business on things that folks NEED, and they are huge in cost, you might be able to make a go of it. Even if they NEED the product, if it is expensive, bus folks will find a way to work around the need with a lower cost soulution.
Now to shipping. We are caught in a catch 22. My wife has to ship her product and UPS daily pickup is really convenient. It also allows us to ship from our bus when we are on the road. We can process the label on the computer, paste it on the package and find a close UPS drop off point.
An extremely small number of all products we buy can be shipped with a few stamps. As soon as you get a pound or two, you are talking dollars (either USPS or UPS). Every time I process a UPS shipment, my blood just boils. However, we have checked USPS and after the first pound or so, they are about the same and the more the weight, the better the UPS rates are. Also with UPS we get tracking on every package and can insure the package very easily from the comfort of our home or bus.
Probably this has me more riled up than normal, since I just had to get our taxes ready and looking at the expenses about put in the coronary care unit.
When I order things over the internet, I consider the shipping to be offset by the fact that we often do not pay taxes. I also am very careful to only order from folks who charge a FAIR shipping charge.
I realize the headaches of being in business, I've watched from the sidelines as several of my friends deal with the day to day headaches, I've endured my share of headaches that were business related, a person could work a lot fewer hours and get a sizeable increase in income by working for somebody else but somehow we seem to enjoy the "freedom" and independance of operating our own business. We've avioded all semblence of being a viable business years ago, for the past 30 years we've enjoyed doing photo work of all sorts, we've recorded countless weddings, some more than once lol kids that we did their student pictures have brought their own kids to have their pictures done, all recorded on film, mostly medium format. Long before the digital age destroyed our love of medium format we had switched mainly to baby pictures, and nursing home groupings. Anyone that has tryed to take a picture of 5 children under the age of 4 years old is familier with trying to record an explosion on film. Our music became an offshoot of the photo work, we'd do the wedding photography, then provide the music for afterwards, worked out great but slowly shifted to doing benefits for fire victims or some other worthwhile endeavor. I found more enjoyment in doing the project for free or for the cost of the material than to try to fight the rules and regulations that the government seemed to require, I follow that same line of thought with the sawdust, a cup of coffee or the price of the material means as much if not more than a check to me at this point in my life.
Rv-Safetyman, As a former business owner in Florida I had to pay unemployment tax on both Myself and My partner even though We owned the business and had no other employees. The best part was because We owned more than Two percent of the business We could not draw unemployment benefits. We had to carry 3 and later 5 million of liability insurance in order to gain access to industrial plants to service machines. Did We get rich? I think You already know the answer to that! Regards ,John
Sorry to keep posting, but the replies keep triggering more thought. When I was going to school, I worked for Sears. I worked in the hardware department (kid in a candy store?). Our books that we used for inventory showed the purchase price for all the product. I could not believe the markup (4 times in some cases)!!!! Now in my wiser old age, I understand why. Along the same lines, when I was working for Gates, I knew what our belts sold to John Deere for. When I saw what John Deere sold them for (again in that 3-4 times range).....same story. These companies have huge overheads and tremendous inventory costs.
I will share with you that we have a markup of 30% on our PressurePro product (that is the case for every "small" dealer for every tire pressure system - I checked). You read that correctly THIRTY PERSENT!! By the time I pay shipping to me (and to the customer - freight free at that sale level) and CC processing, I am down to about 20% margin. I have even thrown in a significant discount to bus folks in the past. Throw in having to swallow a few sensors, and you can see why I am not very smart to stay in business :o :o
Craig, back to your original question (now long lost because of folks like me), Onan is now owned by Cummins. I have found that the dealer's prices are not that far out of line - at least on some things. You might check with them.
Jim
Most of your parts are dropped ship.I tried to pickup parts at PPL in Houston once to save the shipping only to be told that they didn't have the parts there and shipping was the only way I could receive the order.
Same thing happen on a 2500w Onan I bought in Oregon it had to be shipped.
As a retired business owner after 30 years you guys can have all the business large or small I for one do not miss the headaches of a 120 employees and taxes.
The 50% profit margin you are talking about my bussines wasn't setup that way we had labor, taxes ,insurance and overhead then a whopping 5% profit if lucky but it still was not a 50% markup good luck
Quote from: Jeremy on April 10, 2009, 08:21:55 AM
rv_safety - Nicely put. It does annoy me how so many people seem to think a 50% profit margin is unscrupulous, if not borderline criminal, when in reality it often barely covers the businessman's costs. Oddly enough though the people who think that have invariably never been in business themselves.
Jeremy
My business related credentials:
Supermarket industry - 10 years in a major regional chain supermarket, 8 of those in management, 2 as store manager (received the top District Level award both years). That career included formal retail management courses via Texas Tech University.
Wholesale to grocery industry - 10 years in $1B+ snack food company. 5 in field sales management (received awards each year, inclding the top award once), 5 in HQ Marketing management (received the top level performance based bonus each year). That career included numerous formalized training programs related to business management, sales and marketing.
Self employment - 8 years.
- 6 of them operating my online photo gift business that did quite well until Wal-Mart and every other major retailer jumped into that niche. I charged actual shipping cost plus actual packaging cost. My gross profit margins were 50% on mdse we produced and 35% on inventoried pass through mdse (stuff I had to pay for first) and 25% on drop ship pass through mdse.
- 2 years doing contract work for the govt. That wasn't much of a "business" and had nothing to do with sales, but I was completely on my own and planned out, managed and executed my own operations, supplies, expenses and risk. So it was something of a primer for future management/business ownership positions.
So, in a nutshell, I think I am qualified to make observations on the topic.
HighTech: My comment wasn't aimed at you in fact, but perhaps I should have gone a bit further and explained that I was of course refering to the profit margins required in the type of businesses being discussed in this thread, which obviously are worlds away from, and shouldn't be compared to, those acheived in the FMCG sector (ie. supermarket / grocery / high volume household etc). I remember from my time at university that the most profitable supermarket group here was acheiving a 6% gross margin at the time, but that was 20 years ago and I've no idea what it would be now.
Jeremy
Hope this does not come up twice - hit the wrong button.
From redneck's reply, it sound like some of us have ruffled some feathers. I sure hope not!!!! I think we have a communication problem here.
Just to make sure we are all on the same page, I (and I think Jeremy) are talking about what I call product margins. When I say that my margin is 30% on TPMS systems, that DOES NOT translate to PROFIT. That is the difference between the raw price I pay and my selling price. It DOES NOT include any costs of doing business.
Luvrbus and others, I also wonder why a 66 year old fart would want to be in business. Not a day goes by that I don't ask myself why. Well, you folks are part of the reason. I get to meet a lot of neat folks and do a lot of fun traveling in our bus. I loose money every day and am in hock up to my eyebrows, but for some stupid reason I can't find the courage to pull the plug :o :o
Jim
Jim, I am pretty sure nobody has been offended here. I think we have probably learned a lot.
I beleive in profit...we are all in it for a profit...one way or another!
I do not like being ripped off. And some of the shipping costs do that.
I ordered a little box of set screws in SS for our sailboat from Jamestown Supply...I think I paid $9.00 for shipping...I turned around and mailed friends with sailboats 13 set screws each...@ 50 cents for the envelopes and less than a dollar each for the shipping!
Jack
Thanks for the clarification Jeremy. I just wanted to be clear that while I may not be able to speak with experience and authority on how to rebuild a 6V92, I do have the credentials to back up what I have said on this topic.
My supermarket tenure was back in the 80's.
When I am referring to Gross Profit Margin in the context of this thread, I too am referring to product margins, not the overall business. Gross Margin After Operating Expense is a whole other matter. And Net Profit After Taxes is yet another (and the one that truly matters most).
Running a small business anymore is a mental illness every bit as much as being a bus nut is. Once you have it in your blood, it is very hard to go back to work for someone else. What work I do now is self employment and I may yet take another run at a full scale business. (I am HighTechRedneck and I have a problem. ;) )
I worked at a large computer retail chain in the early 90s. We were told that the store needed a 14% margin to break even. Some items such as HP laser printers were basically sold at our cost because that is just the way HP did business. We had to make up the zero margin on HP printers by selling lots of cables and accessories with mind boggling margins.
The store I worked at did $100,000 and up in sales per day.
When I first got into the farm supply business (1986) we were averaging 21 or 22% gross margins. 21 years later when we sold out our sales volumes had tripled but our margins were lucky to break 15%. Meanwhile the equipment we used had quadrupled in cost, the products we were selling (and consequently our AR risk) had more than doubled and wages had tripled. More ominously we went from having multiple suppliers that we could play off against each other to two or three that were essential to our existence. The way of the world seems to be bigger sales volumes at lower margins. I don't miss it for one minute.
And Jim it could be worse - you could have employees.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on April 10, 2009, 10:18:54 AM
Running a small business anymore is a mental illness every bit as much as being a bus nut is. Once you have it in your blood, it is very hard to go back to work for someone else. What work I do now is self employment and I may yet take another run at a full scale business. (I am HighTechRedneck and I have a problem. ;) )
I ran a small business for five years before I sold it. A small business can at times be quite fulfilling and at other times a cause of massive stress. It was sometimes an issue meeting payroll and fulfilling other obligations.
Working for someone else you don't have to worry about finances and all the other issues running a business. I'm happy to work for someone else now and I almost doubled my salary.
HTR, I should pay you for the psychiatry value of your post. You are 100% correct. I am afflicted by TWO versions of mental illness (buses and business) :o Now that I see the light, I understand that there is probably no know cure, but at least I now understand why I stick with both projects.
Bob, yes I am the only employee, but look what I am stuck with!!!
Thanks guys for letting me let off a little steam. I consider you all to be family or I would not have made my comments. What a great group.
Jim
Having ran several small part-time businesses over the years while working full time as a Paramedic/Firefighter, let me say that as a small business owner you get to chose which 18 hours of the day you want to work LOL.
I think many are confusing gross profit with net profit, big difference. Gross profit for us was simply money received from sales less cost of merchandise sold. Net profit was what was left after gross profit was used to pay other expenses such as taxes, bulding rent, office expense, wages, etc. Jack
Jack, no such thing as gross profit in the construction bussines, we were not selling goods only service and to me profit was the left over after Wal-Mart along others and the IRS got through with me LOL
Went to the new camping world at Vacaville, CA the other day. No dump station like they had in Cordelia. Maybe 5 customers, maybe 7 employees while we were there. Big area for RV sales, lots of cubicles inside, golf carts in the area, but no RV's on the lot yet.
On the way out the lady at the check stand wanted to know if we wanted to renew our president's club membership since it expired in June. "No, I don't think so" since you have no dump station. We used the Corelia one about 4 times a year and always shopped that store in appreciation of the 'customer service' provided. "Oh, sir, you can dump at the storage yard in Vacaville! It's only $15 for president's club members!" We learned that the city of Vacaville refused to allow them to have a dump station, bud didn't stop the storage yard. The city would have gotten sales tax off my CW purchases! They used to get tax off our Costco purchases there also, but there are lots of other Costcos.
Safeway buys a 40 lb. case of broccoli for $8, hauls it in their own truck to each store and sells it for $1.59 in our area. So, that's quite a markup and their gross profit margin on it is quite high. But I think their overall net profit would be around 3 percent.
Our local Ace Hardware is big and includes both a rental yard and a Radio Shack. The owner told us he usually got a 3% net profit on his old store. The new one is great, but we doubt that his net is still as high. Home Depot moved in and has hurt his sales. But Home Depot is faltering since you can't find a straight answer in the store. Rumor has it they're on the way out. Meanwhile, Frank's store has suffered but you still get smiles, welcomes, good information, and thank yous from his people. He'll weather the storm. We go there on purpose to get good service.
Our business is 25 years old and we still don't have much money. But we don't have any bills and won't get fired sometime soon. Ours is a service business and product shipping costs don't affect us much. We're slowing down since we are now qualified for social security. But we want to go on a cruise for our wedding anniversary and the latter doesn't cover that. In fact, we have the 'whole life' retirement plan! We will have to work our whole lives in order to live! Why work 40 hours a week for someone else when you can work 80 for yourself for less money?
But, we're not under indictment for trying to sell a senate seat or something like that! So jail is not a fear, either.
Ya makes yer choices and ya lives wid em!
TomNPat
Tom,
"Going on a cruise" is nothing but a euphemism for being a prisoner on a floating Denny's. You can cruise in your bus and be better off. The general rule of small business equals better service/big business equals better prices is not always true. There are a couple of guys at the local HD that really know their stuff. There are several employees there that don't know that much but really make an effort to find answers. The local lumber company is often just as good on price, but can be less helpful. I needed some railroad ties recently. HD will load them. The lumber company pointed out the pile and told me to pull up an grab what I wanted!
I once was having some trouble with a refrigerator and called a small shop for service. He told me to bring the frig on down and he'd check it out.
I worked for camping world for 9 months as a manager and they are blood sucking vampires they want all of the money, every day they would say the sales needs to be higher and then they say oh how are you but they don't care I left becouse of the over pricing. I think you can charge a amount make money and still be able to sllep at night without raping someone
Quote from: cody on April 10, 2009, 05:53:16 AM
I can't think of anyone that I would rather buy a bus related part from than another bus nut, especially one that seems to know which end of the wrench goes onto the bolt. Years ago when you went into the mom and pop hardware store and asked for a part or a tool you not only got the tool but you also got information that was based on personal experience or real knowledge. While there is nothing I enjoy more than going into wally world and asking a technical question in electronics and watching them adlib or stammer, at times we all need real information, at least I do lol. This goes directly along with the idea of busnuts helping busnuts, if an electical guru rolls up his sleeves and tackles joes wiring problem and the mechancial wizard crawls into the engine compartment of bills bus and the sawdust guy redoes the kitchen drawer that is coming apart for mary, then the whole bus community benefits.
Sounds like something that could be done.
Seems real too me. Why I joined up on the boards and went to see Gumpy in the first place. Real experience works for me.
Thanks John
I don't understand what happened to you at the Cottonwood, AZ ACE hardware. I live here and go to ACE Hardware all the time. Normally when a person goes in at least one salesperson steps right up and they are very nollageable.
I wish you could tell me what date you were in the ACE hardware and if you can I will tell Tina, one of the managers, about it. So if you care let me know and I will pass on the info to Tina.
If you care to send me a e mail at edvan@q.com
Thanks
ED
Hello ,this is to all but especially to 'bobofthenorth' ,This is going to sound strange but......I know the owner of ACE Hardware in Cottonwood,AZ.He just built the new store he is a "mom andpop" .That store is normally very very into helping you with anything you need.Joel the owner works very hard with ALL his employees and they are dedicated to givingSERVICE 'cause you cant get it at HomeDepot or the hardware store RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET! PLEASE let somebody know about your visit. OR MAYBE you were there on a very busy time? or maybe you were in a Mood?The ACE in CottonwoodAZ is AWESOME. I am only psting this 'cause it is so surprising to hear anyone complain about THAT store 'cause I know it well. The owner and I were neighbors or years too.GREAT PEOPLE!!!! Thank you ,GFC ;D ;D ;D