Those of us who live on the west coast of Canada are just now seeing spring weather finally arrive. So it is about time to get the coach out of hibernation and take it out for a good run. Because of our location, unless we drive due south, we end up in a mountain pass.
There has been recent discussion about driving automatics up hill and how to shift etc. So far I haven't had a problem keeping up the rpm's and speed going up hill, but what about driving down long hills. We have an Allison 5spd auto and a Jake (MCI-9). We are planning a mountain test drive and were just curious as to what suggestions others might have.
I know this topic has been covered before with varied recommendations but maybe we could revisit it again to remind others like myself.
Thanks, Iver
A very good question.
May I ask you a question before yours?
Have you inspected of what condition is brake's lining & drum as well the adjustment?
With tow (or trailer) or no tow? Tow (or trailer) with or no braking control?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason I ask is that I brought a MCI-8 in 1997 and without knowingly that my 2 front drum had a deep & wide groove to cause about 20% less braking. Being new about driving a large bus, I wasn't aware that it was stopping poorly until inspect my braking system.
Sometime seller won't tell you what you should know but to be careful.
More Later after your answers.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Iver,
Think you should adjust the brakes to be sure they are tight. My slacks are auto and they really don't do the best job of keeping the brakes snug. A jake is nice, but keep in mind that the coach brakes are adequate to stop it under just about any conditions. That said I think you should run some mountain grades without the jake first to be sure you have a good feel for the brakes that you may have to rely on in an emergency sometime. If I had a buck for every time my jake quit working I could easily take a nice vacation.
Another issue if you have a good Jake is that they will lock the drivers and kill the engine when its slick out. Buses have a tendacy to do a 180 when this happens especially if you are at much speed and in a curve.
You live in an area where there is plenty of ice for several months a year, so keep in mind if it kills the engine on the ice, you may also have a rough time with the power steering as you lose it as well.
If you keep your coach brakes adjusted and dry and your jake quits, you will never be in much trouble, but if you come to rely on your jake and let the coach brakes get wet without drying them or let them get out of adjustment and need them when the Jake stops working you may find you are on a thrill ride that will require a change of clothing or worse.
If I am running rain, I always ride my brakes until they are dry and keep them dry, sometimes that can be as often as every 1/2 mile or so in a serious downpour, but if you have to stop, and the brakes are wet, you will travel well more than 1000 feet before you get any brake action and then it will only be from the one that got dry first so its hard to say what direction they will pull you in.
The need for a Jake on buses is very small so don't fall into a trap of relying on the Jake and not having the foundation brakes always at the ready.
Don't read in this that I am not a big Jake fan, but I know how to do it the old way and thats what will keep you alive and you need to know how to do it both ways and know how to take care of and use the coach brakes first. The Jake is mostly a nice toy in bus application. I have pushed my coach brakes real hard a few times, and have never been able to smoke them, but I have never used the stab brake procedure either, because it really just don't work if you are heavy and are on a long steep grade. By the time you do the 3ed or 4th stab, you have a runaway where we live.
Great subjet,
I also have a Allison in my MCI 9, I have never driven the 9 in mountains. I remember when driving the 4104 I would be geared down before going down the grade. this with pulsating the breaks would keep me under control, I must say I never did like big grades.
With an automatic what Is the correct gear to be in or do you leave it in drive and use the brakes? Does the automatic slow you down at all??
John
Once you smoke your brakes things start happening REAL fast.
So a few things to keep in mind.
Keep your air pressure up you can't do that if the engine is idling so yes down shift
before you start your decent.
Some trannies have a high rpm upshift (so if it does) slow down so you can down shift again.
once the tranny upshifts it can go from 35 to 55 in a very short period.
Brake before the corner not at the apex. When you brake you have more G's on the front
and if you hit gravel you'll feel the front end give NOT GOOD
If things start geting real bad start looking for a dumping place where you have some
surviveability...looking down 200 ft drop offs makes your choices limited.
When you do get to the bottom..........stop and walk around and check the tires and drums.
Other than that enjoy the views and just keep it slow!
BTDT
Skip
Would you change from drive to 2nd or 3rd before you desend the hill?? By doing this will it help you to keep the speed down and stop the tranny from changing up?? Will stareting of in a lower gear ( automatic) Will this hold you back??
Thanks
John
When i bought my first bus 7 years ago a trusted friend gave me good advice for driving in the mountains.
Go down the grade in the same gear you would go up it.
Seemed like pretty good advice and it has served my family well so far.
Rick
Quote from: johns4104s on March 31, 2009, 01:55:06 PM
Would you change from drive to 2nd or 3rd before you desend the hill?? By doing this will it help you to keep the speed down and stop the tranny from changing up?? Will stareting of in a lower gear ( automatic) Will this hold you back??
Thanks
John
Absolutely. Before you start down the grade, you should drop your speed and gear down. How much depends on how steep, and how long the grade is.
I frequently go down mountains in Colorado and Wyoming in 1st or 2nd gear at 18-22 mph, even though trucks are whizzing by me at 60 mph or more. I don't care. I put on my flashers and enjoy the ride, watching my speedometer and listening to the engine as it wraps up before applying slight braking to bring my speed back down into the low end of the zone. I don't have jakes, but if I did, I wouldn't do it much differently. I don't think the brakes on the MC9 are adequate enough to safely stop a 34000 coach on a 2 mile 7% grade without doing serious damage to them or seriously overheating the drums and risking brake fade and ultimately failure. I sometimes smell the brakes as they begin to heat up, and my feeling is that if you can smell them heating, they're already too hot.
Remember, as you heat your drums, they expand away from the shoes. At some point, they will expand past the available travel of the shoes, and you will experience brake fade. The shoes can no longer make sufficient contact with the drums to stop the coach, and you are then at the mercy of the gravity Gods. Your best bet is to slow down and gear down before you start down and don't use your brakes at all, if possible. Make it a goal to descend the grade with minimal brake usage. That way, you should not have to worry about having adequate braking should you have an emergency half way down.
Depends on......
tranny, differential ratio and how tight your engine is.
on mine L10 w/ZF I can do 45 mph in 2 up the hill
but on passes like east side of McDonalds pass or Rogers pass here in montana
2 going down isn't enough alone to hold you back.
1 puts it so slow but less brakes required. Since that time
I have hooked up the internal retarder but I have not tested it yet.
(yes I'll admit it I've been spooked worse than running 30k 2t grain truck and having
the front tire blow out at 60mph)
Jakes are very handy maybe when I can save up the money :)
The slowest curve on the pass is 45 mph big sweeping arc with my truck loaded
I like going into it at 35. (dry road and winter sand cleaned off) slower otherwise.
So one pickes the gear where max speed/rpm fall within that range and brakes to keep it
below. (whether you are a pumper, stabber, or holder I won't get back into that debate)
Hope this helps
Skip
After reading NJT 5573's response, I'm wondering if I don't put too much faith in the jake. It's never let me down (literally) but maybe I've just been lucky. I use it religously whether I'm in the mountains or in town. I don't think I would remember how to drive a beast like this without leaning on the jake to the degree that I do. The thought of it failing never occurred to me, :o Thanks, Will
Thanks for the responses. Up until now I have been driving as Craig suggested.....low gear and slow. I just thought I was being too cautious. Lots of trucks pass me by downhill. I can live with that I guess.
I am lucky to have a pit to work on adjusting the brakes so I take as much time as I need to make sure all the brakes are adjusted correctly.
As for the Jake, I don't think I would want to rely on it totally. It works okay but it doesn't slow the coach down like the Jakes on the 4-strokes...
I can't say if I'm a "stabber" or not but I usually go slow enough to stay in control....
Thanks,,,, Iver
Quote from: PP on March 31, 2009, 07:22:19 PM
After reading NJT 5573's response, I'm wondering if I don't put too much faith in the jake. It's never let me down (literally) but maybe I've just been lucky.
Will (& Iver) -A different perspective: In my 29+ years in the bus industry, often averaging 80,000 - 100,000 miles per year, I only had one Jake brake failure while on the road. And that failure was a broken wire on the fast idle buffer switch. So don't panic over what NJT said. If you do the routine maintenance on your coach on a regular basis, chances are you probably won't experience a Jake failure. Not to say that it won't happen, just saying that, with a well-maintained vehicle, chances are pretty small.
A revenue service MC-9, with 44 passengers and three full baggage bins, equipped with a 6V92/HT-740 powertrain, will maintain about 55 - 60 on a 6% freeway downgrade w/o ever having to touch the brakes. BTDTHTS
And to answer Iver's question - YES, an Allison WILL automatically upshift to the next higher gear, even if you've manually selected a lower one, when you bump it against the governor too much.
It is also a good idea, if you're not familiar with the hill, to downshift early, not late, for obvious reasons. RickB's philosophy above is a good one, too - especially if you do not have a Jake.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ,
I am amazed but glad to know the Allison740/745 will still shift up a gear even if you purposely click it into a lower gear before you take the hill.
John
Iver,
Great to hear from other Canadian Busnuts!
I'm new to this forum but not so new to driving. I made a living at it for 30 years and have logged over 3 million miles, driving in all kinds of conditions and on all kinds of roads. I've probably driven on the same highways as you are going to test drive your bus! (I used to haul cars from Annisis island in New Westminster all over western Canada)
That said, I have to disagree with some of the "advice" that's been given.
I agree that it is important to keep your air brakes in good condition and properly adjusted, but not using your Jake brake if you have one? That's just silly. Air brakes cost a lot of money if you use them a lot. Jake brakes work for FREE ! Also, using your Jakes will keep your engine temp up on a long grade, thereby helping your engine to last longer. Again saving you money.
Then there is the safety issue. When I went down a long grade, I would throw my Jake on maximum, turn on any other retarders I had, and maintain a speed where I only needed to touch the service brakes once in a while, if at all. (assuming there wasn't a sharp corner at the bottom of the grade) This saved the service brakes for when I really needed them. (like if the RV ahead of me spotted a bear cub or something in the bush and just had to stop for a picture :o )
Another issue that NJT 5573 brought up is this idea that the Jake brake will lock up your wheels on icy roads. I have made many miles on ice that you couldn't stand up on and I will say that the best thing to do is not use any brakes at all. However I use my Jake on ice lots because it is MUCH SAFER than the service brakes. The reason is that if the Jake overpowers the traction (engine starts rapidly slowing down), I can recover almost instantly by stepping slightly on the throttle. The truck (or bus) will generally not try to to anything silly like 180 degree turns or anything else scary. This is because you have a differential and only one wheel is likely to be slipping. Service brakes (air brakes) are slower to apply and much slower to release so if you step on the brake pedal to the point where your bus starts to slide, you could be in a very bad way before the brakes release enough to regain control.
If NJT 5573 spent a little more time on maintenance of his bus (fixed the wiring), maybe he wouldn't be having so many breakdowns. . .
As far as "the need for jakes is very small", I guess if you don't mind sitting in the shop spending your savings on unneccesary replacement of brakes, then go ahead and use them. . .
As for me. I'll be the one passing you in the "hammer" lane with my Jakes on and a big smile on my face! ;D
Later. . .
Jim
Jim, welcome to the board. Are you sure you're not from England. You speak straight up like an Englishman. Refreshing, Will
Welcome Jim. Glad to have you aboard. :) :) Mitch
Thanks for the welcome
Nope, not from England, born and raised in western Canada! Now living on my families' home farm in Saskatchewan (not sure why???) ???
Later
Jim
There is not many of us on this board that will drive 100,000 thousand of miles a year so we probably have more maintainece problems than those truckers who fly down the passes with there jakes on full.I have seen quite a few that got stopped by the sand run offs.
When the jakes start shutting the engine down you can add throttle, sorry not for me, I would not know when to add or back off.
John
Jim,
If you have never had a Jake kill the engine and lock the drivers on snow or ice, your just running your mouth. , I don't think you have much experience.
The bus that crashed this past winter with the 180 was a fatality accident and is in our archives. Don't get anyone hurt running your mouth. Do you even own a bus???? Lots of the guys here don't have our experience, don't get anyone hurt.
My bus is just fine thank you, no failures, no wiring problems.
RJ's experiences are in line with mine. I can drift off a 6% grade in my coach without touching the brakes at 60MPH, so what would I want to use a Jake Brake for unless I just wanted to show off.
Granted you could save a buck by not keeping your brakes dry in heavy rain, but thats not my style.
You are welcome to pass me in the hammer lane in the ice, I seldom use it. However, I can not in close to 5 million miles in 4 provinces and 38 states ever remember stopping to help anyone out of the ditch or into an ambulance, so roll on there big dog.
Hey Diesel Gypsy,
E-mail me, buswarrior@yahoo.com. You may know me by another handle in relation to Ol Sam.
Never mind NJT 5573, we aren't like that on here. He doesn't have much ammunition against another guy who knows what he's doing, beyond hurling insults.
If this place is not to your taste, there is another site like this one owned by a fellow Canadian. Try out BNO, www.busnut.com.
NJT 5573,
You got no idea who you are messing with, nor the value he could contribute to this board.
Put your inadequate parts away. You are harming the hobby.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
NJT 5573,
Would please explain to us how the jakes are going to slide the drives and stall the engine on ice?
And be specific regarding the vintage of equipment, drivetrain configuration, etc.
Which bus crash please? I'll go find the details. Hard to believe the driver didn't use any other control inputs in the middle of a wipe out... Who said the jakes did it?
You do know about the ABS integration in the newer buses?
How does a driver know the brakes are wet, and how does the driver know they are dry?
Kindly remember that many in our viewing audience have no over the road experience and these summaries of yours don't teach folks much that's relevant if you don't provide explanations.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I may shut up. If this guy is for real whats his ICC Number or his DOT Number, I'd like to check him out, he must own some trucks or buses. Sounds like a rookie to me. No Email, no bus, got a safety record? I have walked the walk and I only speak from real world experiences and I'm not hiding my information. Telling someone something that can get them hurt ain't smart.
If he's from around Lethbridge, maybe he knows Stan Ives, Stan ran a fair sized operation up there. We used to truck togather in the late 60's, hauled explosives out of that area, year around.
If I would respect this person if I knew who he is then why is he hiding all his info? Seems he could/would be proud of himself and not just come on here running his mouth and only having 2 posts? What are you trying to say there buswarrior about harming the hobby? Maybe you are right, I am a professional driver and have never looked at driving as a hobby, safety on the road is my whole life and all I have ever tried to do here is share the things that have kept me alive all these years.
So what kind of bus does your buddy have? Maybe we have some things in common.
Quote from: NJT 5573 on March 31, 2009, 11:36:40 AM
If I am running rain, I always ride my brakes until they are dry and keep them dry, sometimes that can be as often as every 1/2 mile or so in a serious downpour, but if you have to stop, and the brakes are wet, you will travel well more than 1000 feet before you get any brake action and then it will only be from the one that got dry first so its hard to say what direction they will pull you in.
I need enlightened here. Do you mean the actual braking action (mechanical) takes a thousand feet, or there is no slowing of the vehicle for a thousand feet? ??? In either case, I suspect I would have collided with several thousand objects by now if this were so. Sorry if I sound rude, but this just doesn't seem right. I never "dry" my brakes in the rain, and have yet to hit anything. M
timetogo40 is adding sugar
BW,
Trying to help,
Think the bus that swaped ends was a retarded MCI with ABS, we all talked about it here. Colorado if I remember right, believe I went back and read the official DOT report. Should'nt have happened, but it did.
If its raining the procedure for wet brakes is to just test them, if they don't come on they are wet and you can dry them out by riding them until they heat up and start working.
The way a retarder, weather Jacobs, Cat, Allison or Thelma can lock the wheels and kill the engine in the ice is when the amount of traction is less than the braking power being applied to the drivers, they stop turning. The engine is working in a reverse torque application and a retarder will just kill the engine by stopping the rubber from turning if there is no traction.
I can get specific about vintage but its all about the same since the crash in Colorado was ABS anyway so no great saving issues there in this case. One advantage with service brakes in the ice is they will spread the brake force to all wheels and a retarder is specific to the drivers, but service brakes can easily lock the rubber up to and I also have used a Jake on the ice with good results, you just gotta have a feel for it. The Jake manual used to say no Jake in the ice, but that may have been before we had jakes that you could control the number of cylinders being retarded.
Sure hope this helps you.
Gyro,
If you take a 7 inch brake shoe or two, (there are 2 on each wheel) and hold it in your hand it will help you understand this. It is a large brake shoe and if it is wet, you must dry both shoes and the drum before you will have any stopping power. I thought about the 1000 feet statement before I made it and it is not out of line for wet brakes, thats only a little more than 3 football fields and at 50 or 60MPH in heavy water, you will indeed be lucky if the brakes dry and start working in that distance. They won't even begin to dry until friction starts to put some heat into them and that takes some distance. Believe me 1000 feet ain't much with wet brakes and its probably not even enough. At 60MPH 1000 feet is not very many seconds. Lets get BW to figure it out!
Quote from: NJT 5573 on April 01, 2009, 07:40:56 PM
At 60MPH, 1000 feet is not very many seconds. Let's get BW to figure it out!
At 60 mph you're covering 88 ft/second, so it will take you 11.36 seconds to travel 1000 feet.
Reaction time alone at 60 mph will knock off 66 feet, and another 66 just for the air brakes to come on after you touch the pedal, so now you've only got 868 feet to get it stopped.
If you're maintaining a proper space cushion in front of you at 60 mph, then you've got 528 feet of space in front of you, too, leaving just 340 feet to go before you smack the wall.
That's about 10 - GM 4104s or 4106s to crunch up into aluminum cans if your brakes are wet.
NJT - Clear as mud?? Or are my math skills a little bassakwards? :D
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ
Did you figure in how much quicker you will stop with the Jakes on? If the Jake switch is on (as mine usually is), as soon as you lift your foot from the throttle pedal the Jake will, almost instantly, do it's part to slow you down. ;D
Also Jakes don't care how wet it is outside! ;D ;D
NJT 5573
As far as my personal info goes, I'll be putting up some pics etc. when I get some time (and figure out how to do that).
Your experience is awesome! Over 5 million miles (you said), and according to your info page you are only 58. Now, let me do the math. . . . 5 million miles at 100,000 miles per year would equal 50 years right? So that means you started driving commercially when you were 8 years old!! Wow! They wouldn't let me get my "Chauffeur's license" as they called it back then, until I was seventeen! ;D
Too bad that, in all those miles you never stopped to help anyone out (again - what you said). Maybe that's why you have so many more miles than me, because I've stopped to help people countless times! I think that's what it's all about, helping people along the way!
Later. . .
Jim
When I was in 9th grade, took a Eagle 1 series to Mammoth-the bus was packed with people and sky equipment-heavy. I remember climbing the grade coming out of Bishop in second gear. Then on the return trip, instead of blasting down the hill, the driver slowed on the flat and down shifted back to 2nd gear and went down the hill. Near the bottom, he let it loose and we quickly got up to 85 mph and then just basically coasted the rest of the way into Bishop. If you don't have a Jake brake, you go down the hill in the same gear you came up for maximum braking.
If you don't have a Jake brake and are going into Canada or west of Interstate 25, have one installed. In 21 years of over the road driving, always had a Jake. A couple of times did experience no Jakes from electrical problems, and can say would not like driving without them and smoking the brakes all the time. Good Luck, TomC
Well I have to agree with Diesel Gypsy on the use of Jake's. I live in Merritt BC, there's not a road out of here that doesn't have a min. 6% grade and they go for miles. I drive the bus during the winter a lot over these mountain passes, as the bus is my mobile office and living quarters.
I would rather use the Jake's on snow or ice, than the brakes any day. I find the brakes can grab if they aren't warmed up in cold weather and you are also braking all 6 wheels, this can put you in a slide and can be scary. Using the Jake's I have never had it slide as D_G said the worst that can happen is one wheel will slide, with all the other wheels turing keeping the bus in a straight line. In extreme ice conditions I start the Jake's in low then switch it into high.
I don't understand the comment that you can stall the engine using Jake's on ice. As soon as the engine RPM reaches 700 to 800 RPM the Jake's disengage ...
This subject has come up before about not using Jake in snow ... I guess some of these so called experts should contact the 100+ logging truck drivers that live here, that are driving on narrow snow and ice roads (6 months a year) with 12% to 14% grades that can go on for miles with 80,000 + lbs load on a super B, that they shouldn't use their Jake's ... that would get a good laugh
Jim, sorry I haven't looked at this thread sooner. Welcome aboard. Thanks for all of the great advice. It is great to get another old time trucker on here. It sounds like you have some pretty incredible experience. I might have missed it, but where are you in Saskatchewan? I have only been up to Saskatoon. Don't worry about NJT5573. We are usually nicer around here (unless we are talking about politics ;D).
We are going to be getting Jakes on our bus very soon. We have needed them very badly. It will be nice to get some more stopping power.
And while we are swapping millage stories, I don't have much of one. I have just been to all of the lower forty eight states, and eight Canadian provinces (that includes PEI, I am not sure it that qualifies)...
Prevost82, we were through your town last March. Nice area. Then we went all the way up the Fraser River valley, and that was without Jakes :o (we are trying to help the economic recovery, and are supporting the brake dealers ;D :D ;D). That was the trip that we decided that Jakes would be very nice. BTW, you Canadians put your roads right through a mountain, we Americans go around the mountains ;D ;D ;D (I don't mean anything against you guys. We loved the whole trip, and want to go back next year.)
We also saw some of what the logging companies do up there. Pretty incredible. If the logging companies use jakes all the time, so will we. They have far more tough experience than I will ever have.
Thanks for the info guys.
God bless,
John
Im one of the inexperienced newbies that this thread referred to. I haven't driven anything larger then 27 feet with hydrolic brakes before. I think I am getting a bus within the next couple of weeks. It has air brakes and I have someone to teach me how to drive it. I think after reading this thread I want Jakes, but I cant afford them and I am going to go very slow down hills in low gear with everyone passing me. Thank you guys for this thread, it may save my children's lives some day!
I think that no one can argue with the concept that the more slowing options that better. It is also good advice to understand the function and maintenance of whatever equipment you have. You can live without Jakes or retarders, but it is certainly better to have them. Obviously though, having a retarder does not mean that you can ignore your brake system or should not know how to drive without the retarder. I do not have any, but always consider installing one. Right now, everyone passes me going up hill and everyone passes me on the way down. Can't say I love it that way, but I can live with it.
Welcome Jim ! Yep I had one of those chauffeur licenses I haven't heard that one for awhile you must be "old"
I have got lots of experience driving Mount Blackstrap with my bus :) Saskatchewan's highest mountain with its harrowing twisting turns. (I think its the highest :) )
Welcome again
Quote from: happycamperbrat on April 02, 2009, 11:53:41 PM
Im one of the inexperienced newbies that this thread referred to. I haven't driven anything larger then 27 feet with hydrolic brakes before. I think I am getting a bus within the next couple of weeks. It has air brakes and I have someone to teach me how to drive it. I think after reading this thread I want Jakes, but I cant afford them and I am going to go very slow down hills in low gear with everyone passing me. Thank you guys for this thread, it may save my children's lives some day!
Happycamperbrat
You don't mention where you are from, but here in Canada you need to have an air brake endorsment on your license to be legal to drive with air brakes. I think that the US probably has something similar. But DON'T FRET, the air brake course is one of the best things that the government has come up with. It is a wealth of information on air braking systems and equipment. They provide a very good manual (at least here they do) and the test (yes, there is a test) is just a theory (paper) test.
Air brakes are VERY DIFFERENT from hydraulic brakes and a good understanding of them is essential to safe operation.
Glad to hear that you are "movin up". Busses are great fun, but I have to warn you about one thing. . . . .You won't ever be happy with a "sticks and staples" camper again! ;D
Happy Bussin'
Jim
P.S. Truck salvage yards have lots of Jakes for Detroit Diesels at cheap prices
John 316
Hi, I'm about two and a half hours north west of Saskatoon.
You mentioned log haulers and Jake brakes. I used to haul logs into Grande Prairie AB. We ran basically highway type trucks, but hauling on private roads, we weren't limited on load. So we typically tried to stay between 175,000 and 200,000 lbs. This was on 5 axles (basic 18 wheeler). We had 12 ft wide bunks on the truck and the wood was all loaded butt end ahead so we would usually be about 16 ft high. The logs were all tree length so the whole load was over 100 ft long. I wish I could have seen some of the people's faces when I met them at night on the road and I flipped on my backup lights to light up the load of logs. The brake lights always came on pretty fast when they saw that wide load. Bear in mind those logging roads were often very narrow.
Anyway, back to brakes. . . Those log roads were often about 18 to 25% grades, sometimes more. And they dragged snow across them to fill in the holes to make a road, so on a warm day it got so slick that I've had the truck start sliding off the road when I was parked on a bit of a slope! We had big air gauges for application pressure mounted right on top of the dash. The normal procedure when coming up to a steep hill was to gear down and throw on the Jake, Pull the retarder lever back all the way, use the trailer spike to apply about 60 lbs of air to the trailer, and use the foot pedal to apply about 30 lbs of air to the tractor brakes. Then suck in your breath and roll over the top and hope that you weren't too brave by not putting on any "jewelery"! Set up like this, the first wheels to start "kicking out" would be the drives. If this happened, (and it did lots!) I would immediately release the tractor service brakes. If this didn't help enough, I would also release the retarder. All of this usually meant picking up another gear because the speed would be climbing too fast for the engine. Then I'd try to get things under control again by applying brakes again til it would start kicking again and we go through the whole procedure again. The scariest thing is when you run out of gears and you have to kick it into "Mexican" and rely only on your air brakes to slow the thing down. :o
That's when you tell yourself that "chains are good, chains are your friend, next time PUT ON THE JEWELERY!" (but where are the bragging rights in that?)
I miss those days, driving skills stayed pretty polished back then. . .
Anyway, Ive bored you long enough for now
Later
Jim
http://www.thedieselgypsy.com/
Cody
Wow, what a great site. It's funny that I'd never heard of him before.
Thanks for the link
later. . .
Jim
Jim, I thought you might find that interesting. One our busnuts here dug it up and we thought it was interesting.
Jim,
Thanks for the post. That was great. Logging truck drivers are some that I have always admired. Driving those rigs takes such skill, thought, and plain guts. I have seen some of those logging roads, and they are incredible. Thanks for the advice. I for one will heed it.
That is interesting that you used to truck into Grand Prairie. We were up in Cleardale AB (north) a while ago. We ended up getting a ride Grand Prairie for bus parts. All the way up there we had a broken stud :(. It couldn't have been a worse time. Anyways we were blessed to be able to use a logging company's fully equipped garage, to fix the bus in. I will spare you all of the details ;D.
God bless,
John
Hi! I live in California and plan on being a fair weather driver :) As far as the air brake certification, yes they have it here but it only applies to commercial drivers not to motorhomes that just happened to be a bus once upon a time. I dont know about other states or countries though....
Well I know 5000 plus 4104,s and thousands of 4106,s were built and on the road without Jakes, Talk about experience, those greyhound drives sure had experience. I wonder how they handled it in the Canadian and US terrain. I talked to lots of them who drove on ice etc. Never heard one comment on how there would of liked to have jakes. I guess with a full load of passengers they didn't drive like a bat out of hell on the grades.
John
This thread seems to have drifted a long way from the OP question. Its not about whether or not you can get downhill without Jakes because obviously you can. Otherwise the bottom of every mountain pass would be littered with the remains of countless non-Jaked equipment that failed to make it down the pass. The OP wanted to know how to get downhill WITH Jakes safely. My advice is start slow and figure out what % of grade in what gear and at what speed your Jakes can handle with your coach loaded the way you load it. Then stay under that speed on that grade. That way you will arrive at the bottom of the hill with cool brakes ready to make a panic stop when the proverbial little girl with a kitten steps off the curb in front of you.
For us that magic speed is 50 MPH in 9th gear on a 6% grade. YMMV.