My next question is about breaker boxes, with my bays torn apart and waiting for the magic hand of the portable welder guy, I looked at my breaker box, it's a sad little affair with only 2-25 amp breakers and no mains. What I have currently (like that? yep clever for an old guy in the morning lol) is 30 amps coming in and I kinda like that cause I can actually tote a 30 amp cord around but I'd like to have the ability at some point in my future of adding 50 amp capability. So I'm going to be looking around and getting a new breaker box, any suggestions on what size mains to look for, I figure that half my problem with the front a/c unit is how it's all tied together in the bays and it's wired wrong so I'll be looking for more info after I pick out the breaker box, I want to make sure the power cord is routed properly in regards to the inverter and breaker box and batteries, the way the pO has it set up doesn't look right to me but I'm dumb and don't know, he has the cord going into a wad of electrical tape and it splits and one direction heads for the inverter and another wire heads for the breaker box. If only it was wood, I'd understand it. lol
I'm sure you'll get lots of the smart fellers chiming in here soon but this is a pretty good description of a 30 to 50 amp conversion in a conventional motorhome.
Hatch Electrical Conversion (http://www.bobhatch.com/electricStuff/30to50amp.htm)
(added on edit)
See caveats below from Sean, as well as this. I've met Bob Hatch and visited with him a couple of times. In fact we had supper with Bob & Mary just about a week ago now. He's practical and down to earth. I'd enjoy being a fly on the wall for a discussion between him and Sean.
Cody,
You will probably be just fine with the smallest "load center" at Lowes or Home Depot. The real question is how many branch circuits you will want -- if you need more than those panels support, get a larger size.
All residential load centers are good for at least 60 amps, and most today are 125 amp or better, so they are overkill for a bus.
You will also need to decide whether you want the "main breaker" in the panel or separate, which will likely depend on how you will set up other items like generator, inverter, and transfer switch (if any). Generally, having the main separate gives you more flexibility, but will cost more because it requires a separate enclosure.
Panels without a dedicated spot for a main breaker are called "main lug" panels, and ones with are called "main breaker" panels. Some "main lug" panels can be converted to main breaker use by back-feeding one of the branch positions; this is the absolute cheapest way to go.
If you are going to be doing both AC and DC installations, I recommend Square-D "QO" series panels and breakers, since they are rated for both AC and DC and, in a pinch, you could move breakers from one system to the other as needed. That said, they are among the pricier models.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Quote from: bobofthenorth on March 26, 2009, 07:27:01 AM
... this is a pretty good description of a 30 to 50 amp conversion in a conventional motorhome.
http://www.bobhatch.com/electricStuff/30to50amp.htm (http://www.bobhatch.com/electricStuff/30to50amp.htm)
Bob,
I browsed that site, since I had never seen it before, and I have a few comments:
First off, I think his description is of limited use for most here, and certainly the OP, because he's actually starting from a 125-amp, 120/240-volt panel. From his photos and descriptions, Winnebago had equipped the coach with this panel, modified the panel by installing their energy management system inside it, and then "ganged" the two hot busses together with a jumper wire. So converting the panel from straight 120 to 120/240 was a matter of removing a jumper wire. I think part of the reason for this is that the Adventurer was offered with 30-amp service standard, but 50-amp service as an option, so the coach had to be configured to allow this to be an easy change at the factory or the dealer. (I'm familiar with this, because my father-in-law had an Adventurer, and he always regretted ordering it with the 30- rather than the 50-amp option; I tried to keep a low profile about it lest I get roped into changing it for him :) )
In my experience, most coaches configured for 30-amp service use dedicated RV panels, which are single-lug, so converting to 50-amp requires changing the panel out altogether. It appears from Cody's OP that he also has a single-lug panel. Incidentally, the panel as shown in the first photo and as set up from the factory uses the "back-feed from branch position" that I described in my last post to implement the "main" breaker for the panel, which, in this case, happens to be half a tandem breaker. Tandems can't easily be used as back-feed mains in 240-volt panels, because you need a two-pole breaker (although some manufacturers make "quads" which might work for this purpose; I've been participating in a discussion involving "quads" in this thread on the other board: http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/27261.html?1237998907 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/27261.html?1237998907)).
Secondly, several of the links on that page now take you to blank pages, so some of the "instructions" are missing, including at least one of the critical steps.
Thirdly, I have some concerns about some of his methods being unsafe. For example, he's cut the factory-crimped ring terminals off the shore cord assembly (no problem there), and then twisted and soldered the resulting fine-strand cable ends before making his connection. Stranded cable ends should
never be soldered before inserting them into compression terminals such as those found on panels, breakers, and receptacles -- insert the bare wires, then tighten the compression fittings to the proper torque. If you solder the ends first, that will keep the strands from "flattening" fully when the compression fitting is tightened, which, on the surface, may seem like a good thing. However, during use, ohmic heating of the connection will cause the solder to soften, allowing it to flow and the strands to begin to separate and flatten, and now the connection pressure is too low, and the connection becomes more resistive, leading to even more ohmic heating in a vicious cycle. Fires can and have started this way -- see one of my write-ups here: http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/08/my-turn-to-catch-up-on-photos.html (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/08/my-turn-to-catch-up-on-photos.html).
He also has elected to run his #6 wires in slit loom. Not only illegal, but also quite dangerous, as the loom is much more tight-fitting than properly sized conduit, possibly leading to overheating of the conductors. For individual THHN or THNN wires, a better and safer choice would be properly sized flexible ENT ("smurf tube"). The required trade size for four #6 (or even three #6 and one #8, which is also permissible) is 3/4", which is possibly why he chose the slit loom in the first place -- it's much smaller. This is exactly what makes it dangerous.
An alternative would be to use 6/3-8/1 NM cable, which would have been just as compact as the method he chose, but, again, legal and much safer.
Lastly, I found his writing to be less than fully descriptive of what is going on or needs to be done. For example, the ATS seems to be a complete mystery to him, so his explanation of how to connect to it or rewire it is, at best, difficult to follow. I think this is consistent with the fact that he is using improper methods and materials in the other steps.
There is a ton of "advice" and "how-to" on the Internet, unfortunately, not all of it is correct, and some is just downright dangerous. This well-meaning article, aimed principally at other Winnebago Adventurer owners, has some useful information (and photos) for owners of that model, but I advise a great deal of circumspection before following any of the instructions there.
JMO, FWIW, YMMV, etc.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
I appreciate the information, I got a better idea now one what to get for the breaker box, as far as the transfer switch, I figured to continue with the manual set up I have, I'm gunshy of the automatic ones, what I have now is a power cord comeing from the generator to the center compartment with an outlet on the end of it, where the power is, if I'm on shore power, the power cord is plugged into the shore power pedistal, if I'm on the generator I plug the power cord into the outlet that comes from the generator, it's either one or the other with no chance to fail. I've been kinda gunshy with transfer switches ever since a good friend years ago plugged his coach into an outlet at a friends house and it was a hot 220 outlet, took out most of his electrics, his inverter was toast, backfed his generator and fried the head, his tv and stero and a bunch of stuff in his coach were crispy, the light show was really pretty for a while but it scared me, if it were to happen to me at least this way I could save the generator. It was a massive failure of all his surge protection, it basically turned his inverter into a welder but a very colorfull one lol.
Cody - I share your concern with ATS's - I had one go out in Wyoming on my class A - It was stuck on shore only - Not feeling comfortable nor having the time to find the part - I took it to a dealership near Laramie where THEY promptly crossed the shore and Gen feeds and took out a number of electronic items - I then spent 3 days waiting on parts in Denver - The MTS in my bus is idiot proof - If the amber lights don't light up - You don't hook up - The more expensive ATS units I imagine can handle more duty cycles - but the cheapies sure don't - FWIW