Hi guys, I have just joined this forum, so I am still learning the ropes. I would ask your patience with me.
I am faced with a problem and could sure use some help with finding some options. Here is my dilemma: About two years ago I bought an MCI 96A3 with the original 6V92 Turbo. I have since commenced with the modifications to make it livable and have taken some trips, including one to Florida (I live in MI). While the engine starts amazingly well, it smokes nasty white smoke when I accelerate and until I have driven some 20+ Miles. I also feel like there is really no power. Going through the hills on I75 in TN sometimes I was crawling at 35Mph. I have had it inspected at a turbo shop in Detroit and they feel the turbo is fine. Then last year the left radiator blew up and I got stranded with the engine just shutting down in the middle of the road/intersection. I had the radiator fixed and driven the bus since, but the heat gauge is very close to the shut down temperature, on a hot day.
As my project progresses, my wife and I would like to take the travel options more seriously and we need to review the problem with the engine. So what are my options? I guess
a.) I could have an in-frame rebuild. What should that cost me? I still end up with just 270hp or so
b.) I have access to a 500hp Cummins ISX from 2001 with about a million miles. It comes with a ZF-Meritor 9-Speed Shift by Wire Transmission. The ISX is in running condition and the tranny is said to shift fine. My cost would be about 12K and I would get some other parts that I could use, like Alcoa rims and so on. How significant would be the exchange? Could I use the ZF Tranny? Any suggestions? :-\
Tornadex,
I wish I could help you. I am curious about where you are in Michigan. I'm in Lansing.
Glenn
Thanks for your response, I am near Auburn Hills, MI
Hi Tornadex,
Welcome!
One of our members "Brian Diehl" did what you are asking about. Hopefully he will chime in here soon.
Here is his home page of the motor job
http://home.earthlink.net/~diehls0792_1/BusSection10.html
Good Luck
Nick-
I read up on the conversion he did and found it very interesting. Actually that's what encouraged me to look at that option. I guess the difference is that this is an ISX, so it may be different with the mounting and space requirements. The question I have is also "do I want a 9-speed Transmission with paddle shift"?
Tornadex, I would stay away from the Sureshift ZF you are talking about here that is a non synchronized tranny and give a lot of problems and are very expensive to repair the Freedom line ZF is not as bad.And 12g's is a little pricey for that setup with that many miles FWIW good luck
The 12K is for a complete truck with many other goodies that I could use. Problem is, if the engine checks out bad, it would cost an arm and a leg to resuscitate. Buying it at that price would already cause me to limp, so I want to stay in a realistic proportion. Not sure if the tires and wheels from a Freightliner would fit onto my MCI - Jorg
Couple of problems with that setup. One is the length of the Cummins ISX-the only way I would think it would work would be to swap an Eagle rear end with a drop box on the drive axle to accomodate the length. Two is the height of the engine-you'll most likely have to poke up into the bed area to maintain some kind of ground clearance. And three is the extra weight. The ISX weighs in at around 2,800lb compared to the 6V-92TA at 2,050lbs. Then there is the manufacturing of the engine mounts, transmission mounts, getting the transmission to work with the engine properly (here at Freightliner, we don't even offer the Meritor transmissions [specifically the ZF because of cost] anymore), installing the air to air intercooler that the ISX uses. Personally, I would stick with the 6V-92TA. Have it rebuilt with up to date equipment using 9G90 injectors for 340hp at 1050lb/ft torque, make sure the aftercooler is cleaned and you have the bypass valve on the blower. Also, you can up grade your radiators to further accomodate the higher horsepower. The overhaul of your 6V-92TA should cost about the same as the $12,000.00 you're looking at the truck. The thing with an engine change over, there are multitudes of costs that are not evident until you dip into the project. Good Luck, TomC
TomC, thank you so much for your information. This is good wisdom and I was hoping you would come online, because I value your input. Any thoughts on the smoking? Could the engine be done in-frame? There is a place here that would charge about $4,500 for the work plus the parts. What other engine options could I look out for, if I wanted more power? How would I know if my 6V92 is a TA? Is there some way to get more power from the 6V92?
regards,
Jorg
Tornadex
Welcome i am in the Saginaw/Caro area of Michigan
I think the TA part is turbo but I am not the best person with this stuff.
How sure are you the engine is bad. I have smoke for a few miles after a long winter
Some say you can add a air scoop to give better speed in the mountains but i do think
It was for out west. The big hills will slow you down with most buses i think.
Happy Trails
TA is the abbreviation for "turbo aftercooled"
TA - Turbo Aftercooled - Why didn't I think of that. The smoking is every time the engine is cold, even if it has run the day before. Someone said that it may be coolant in the combustion process. That would explain why it is heating up more. But there is no water in the oil and I haven't seen any oil in the coolant. The power issue is just so frustrating when other buses or trucks with 80,000lb loads whizz (sound of turbo) by as if I am standing still.
Jorg, how much HP are you looking for Don Fairchild can turn out 625 hp from the 6v92 but keeping it cool is the problem.I have a couple of friends that run their 6v92 in the 425 hp range in the Eagle which easier to cool than the MCI good luck
There have been some city buses on Ebay that have series 50 with world b500 transmission. One didn't get a bid for 7,500 and another for under 5,000. That would give you all you need and fit.
Jack
Your smoke is blow by from idling. Oil gets by rings and slobbers into your air box. When you get out on the road and under full pressure all your slobbered oil goes back into combustion chamber and it smokes till it gets up to temp and cleans itself out. Inframe is great way to go, as previously mentioned up grade injectors for more power and economy. Good Luck.
Thank you Harpold700 3, that sounds very plausible. Would this blow-by affect my power as well - I assume so? It's a lack of compression - right? Does anyone know about compression testing on a 6V92? Is there a simple way of determining the actual condition? I guess my thought would be, if I get an in-frame overhaul done, even with the new injectors, how different will it feel? I know the answer is similar to how long is a piece of string. But if I spend between $7000 and $10000, I really want to get some value out of it. Otherwise I might as well just deal with the smoke and putt on down the road.
What about Blue_goose's idea. Would that require any modifications? Would the size of the Series 50 fit into my engine compartment? What would I need to look out for?
Thanks guys you are such a help.
Here you go Jorg the height on the 50 series is the killer they are 51 inches tall,42 inches long,34 inches wide and weigh 2230 lbs and why use a engine(series 50)that is 320 hp with 1000# of torque you can get 350 hp with 1100 lbs of torque but that will cost you big. Fwiw the 6v92 in the 322 hp range is 967 ft lbs of torque Good luck
With that amount of miles, for that amount of capital investment I would do a series of oil analysis and consider other options!
My 2 cents worth.
Steve 5B......
Tor,
You are lucky you didn't crack the heads when it shut down. There are two overtemp sensors, one in each head. I would take them both out and verify at exactly what temp those things are activating. I would augment my monitoring system to include a temp gauge for each head...that menas add a meter to the mix and verify each. You can add a contacting sensor to each head, like the pair of over temp shutdown sensors....but set to contact at 200 degrees. Connect those to a ALARM and a LARGE RED light on the dash. That will give you enuf warning to get out of traffic and get her shut down before it gets to the emergency stage.
102c rads spec'd for the 8V92 seems to be the hot (cold) setup. Lots of referals to rad makers in the CONUS and their prices. You might want to wait on this as if you overhaul the 6V92 they run cooler than a worn engine and what you have might be OK. Also, if you install a 4 cycle you will be ok as they make much less heat.
You need a DD fact shop to eval your engine. Cost must vary but I have heard that $300 gets it done. You really need to know what you have before you launch into a multi thousand dollar "anything". That takes a dyno, for starters and that shop MUST have an "Old Hand" mech that understands 2 cycles and they are getting harder to locate. Worth driving to the next state to do bus with a DD dealer that has the appropriate staff. They will all do the job but there is no sub for experience no matter what an engineer will tell you.
Food for thought if you are up to it: Figure a way to incorporate a "intercooler" into the 6V92design to augment the "after cooler" installed in the belly of the engine.
Install JAKES!
Install "Wet Wrap" in the engine bay.
Just some thoughts now.....I am no expert.
John
Great information from you guys. I think the tip about getting it checked out at a DD dealer with old school experience is definitely the way to go. I will try to locate one in the greater Detroit area, tomorrow. I agree, that spending a bit of money up front is well worth it when I have a better idea about my options. Thank you all for the very valuable input. I will report back on this issue when I have more info. If anyone has more ideas or thoughts, please let me know, as I will check in here frequently.
PS: John thanks for the additional thoughts and the new nickname - I like it.
Tor
I would be very easy and careful on that old engine at this point. I had one that did what yours is doing and it ran OK after a few miles of fogging. However, That said you need to understand that the 6V92 is a wet sleeve engine and is very touchy on overheating of any kind. They just don't like it and will tell you later on when they dump you with major failures when you really don't need those headaches.
If your bus has two radiators and you didn't change/recore both of them at the same time you could still have one working good and the other not so good.
You can have it in-framed however you may not get everything repaired that might need it because they can't drop the crankshaft. Only the heads, sleeves, pistons, rods and required bearings will be worked on. The heads are another issue, They usually need to be remanufactured if the engine is substantially worn.
If it were me I would opt for an out of frame complete overhaul with the bigger injectors and up to date blower and turbo setups. If you got the bucks to do it right. You can get many miles and a lot better power on a fresh engine.
But my current philosophy is wherever I break down, I live there until I can get going again somehow..( I am only kidding! 8) )...
My wimpy (good running 277hp 6V92TA ) was crippled to 5 mph going up Signal Mountain out of Chattanooga and 9,000 mph downhill with no jakes or brakes!
MC9 pulling 8,800 cargo trailer. at night.. GPS made mistake and I was tired...
( A 10 hour life changing ordeal I hope to never go through again -ever! )
Tennessee has a few speed bumps that only 500 HP will smooth out!!!(almost!)
Dave....
In framing is a good way to go-as long as the crankshaft is in good condition. The best way to go is to open it up inside the bus and inspect all the parts and ONLY replace what is worn out-this is called an overhaul. Completely replacing all the parts with new is a rebuild-and many shops will only do rebuilds so to give you a warranty (hard to warranty a used part even though it might still be in tolerance). I did the same thing on my engine. Even though I had to have the block bored over .010" and have .010" over cylinder liners installed, I still kept the same pistons, rings and connecting rods, and even the bearings. Still was expensive, but would have been even more just blindly replacing all the parts. Good Luck, TomC
I Tornadex...Welcome...good to see someone very close to home...Clawson. Retired from GM Tech. I now live in SC.
About getting engine back to normal power or more. It be wise to have a DD evaluate your engine before the real talk begin.
Keep us posted of you project.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Quote from: luvrbus on March 18, 2009, 03:47:26 PM
Here you go Jorg the height on the 50 series is the killer they are 51 inches tall,42 inches long,34 inches wide and weigh 2230 lbs and why use a engine(series 50)that is 320 hp with 1000# of torque you can get 350 hp with 1100 lbs of torque but that will cost you big. Fwiw the 6v92 in the 322 hp range is 967 ft lbs of torque Good luck
The series 50 I think is the least problems to change to in the MCI. I have put one in a MCI7 and a 102A3 with no major problems. The MCI 102A3 with the B500 is getting about 8 miles to the gal and the owner says it fells like he has twice the power of the 6V92 that it had before. There is a MCI9 in Atlanta Ga. with a series 50 and he also loves the way it runs. MCI also put some series 50 in the MCI 12 .
Tor, if you do decide to swap engines there is a Cummins ISM 450 hp 2002 (pre egr engine) from a bus with 63,000 miles on it for sale on the Eagles board for 7500.00 that's a good buy http://www.eaglesinternational.net good luck
blue_goose...thank you sharing a DD 50 series swap photo.
Do you have more in regard to air-cooler, muffler and clearance on top of valve cover?
Is the crank-center line same as 6 or 8v92?
Thank you, Gerald
I seem to remember not long ago a discussion about the series 50 between Jack, TomC, and Cole but can not find it now.A MCI may be easy to do with a series 50 but the Eagle is not much fun raising the floor.The few I had in construction equipment not the engine of choice for me good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on March 19, 2009, 06:05:56 AM
Tor, if you do decide to swap engines there is a Cummins ISM 450 hp 2002 (pre egr engine) from a bus with 63,000 miles on it for sale on the Eagles board for 7500.00 that's a good buy http://www.eaglesinternational.net good luck
luvrbus, can you be more specific about the location / link. I checked it out but found no such posting
Thanks, TOR
Tor, look under general chat posted by Boomer good luck
Quote from: Sojourner on March 19, 2009, 06:27:14 AM
blue_goose...thank you sharing a DD 50 series swap photo.
Do you have more in regard to air-cooler, muffler and clearance on top of valve cover?
Is the crank-center line same as 6 or 8v92?
Thank you, Gerald
Cool picture, looks very neat!
TOR
Quote from: Sojourner on March 19, 2009, 02:07:59 AM
I Tornadex...Welcome...good to see someone very close to home...Clawson. Retired from GM Tech. I now live in SC.
About getting engine back to normal power or more. It be wise to have a DD evaluate your engine before the real talk begin.
Keep us posted of you project.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Sojourner, good to hear from you. "I believe" we share some common interests. It would be great to meet some day - and some day we will. I look forward to that.
Stay blessed.
TOR
Quote from: luvrbus on March 19, 2009, 07:14:33 AM
Tor, look under general chat posted by Boomer good luck
I don't have access with the Eagles. Luvurbus, could you ask Boomer for a contact number or email. I am interested.
Tor, I asked for a contact number for you fwiw that is a public board only one section is for Eagle members only sign up and go for it good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on March 19, 2009, 07:40:23 AM
Tor, I asked for a contact number for you fwiw that is a public board only one section is for Eagle members only sign up and go for it good luck
OK I think I found it on ebay, too. Dan - I believe - has split the engine and the tranny apart for separate auctions. I will do some more research and will keep an eye on it. There is a contact number there. Thanks again.
TOR
Tor, here is the info ABC Bus Co. in Minnesota 1-800-222-2875 Bert at XT 301457 came from a Blue Bird.If you need a Eaton Auto shift there are some for sale on the Eagle board also.
good luck
Hey,
I would strongly reconsider on the ISX. The motor is huge and weighs much more than an ISM. I had it memorized at sometime, but have forgotten. Also, you didn't mention anything about the ISX being rebuilt, so I will assume it hasn't. The motor is worn out. 1 million miles on an ISX is good mileage and there won't be much left for you to use before an overhaul is needed. Also, the price is pretty expensive. I bought the entire front clip of the truck I used for $7750. This included everything I needed. Personally, a 400hp ISM is plenty of power and plenty energy efficient. I get 9mpg with my setup and consider that great for a MCI 96A3. If you have any questions after going through my website feel free to email me.
BTW, I have over 10,000 miles on my swap and have no regrets!
-Brian
http://home.earthlink.net/~diehls0792_1/BusSection10.html
Quote from: Tornadex on March 19, 2009, 07:18:04 AM
Quote from: Sojourner on March 19, 2009, 06:27:14 AM
blue_goose...thank you sharing a DD 50 series swap photo.
Do you have more in regard to air-cooler, muffler and clearance on top of valve cover?
Is the crank-center line same as 6 or 8v92?
Thank you, Gerald
Cool picture, looks very neat!
TOR
Send me your email address and I will send more, too hard to send lots here.
Jack
This was on ebay and ended Feb 3, 2009 with no bids. There was no reserve on the listing.
It may still be for sale, phone number is in add.
Jack
THIS IS A 1994 GILLIG 40FT BUS, VIN NUMBER IS 15GCD2011R1085453. THE BUS HAS A 50 SERIES DETROIT DEISEL WITH A FIVE SPEED ALLISON AUTOMATIC. THE MILES ARE SHOWING 44489, I'M SURE THAT IS NOT ACTUAL. THE BUS STARTS RIGHT UP AND RUNS DOWN THE ROAD GOOD. IT SHIFTS GOOD. EVERYTHING WORKS ON THE BUS ALL THE ELECTRICAL WORKS AND THE BRAKES ARE GOOD. IT HAS A WABATSO HEATER IN IT THAT ALSO WORKS GOOD. THE FRONT TIRES ARE ABOUT 1/4 TREAD AND THE BACK ONES ARE LESS AND WILL NEED TO BE REPLACED, WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT FROM A TO B. THE HEAT WORKS GOOD IN THE BUS, NOT SURE IF THE AIR CONDITIONING WORKS BECAUSE IT IS COLD HERE, BUT EVERYTHING IS HOOKED UP AND APPEARS TO BE IN WORKING CONDITION. THE BUS DOES NOT HAVE ANY BLOW BY OR OIL LEAKS. THERE IS A LITTLE COROSION AROUND THE WHEEL WELLS, BUT IT IS VERY MINOR. ALL OF THE GLASS IS GOOD IN THE BUS. IT HAS LED LIGHTS IN THE BACK. HOLLANDALE IS LOCATED BETWEEN AUSTIN AND ALBERT LEA, OR 80 MILES SOUTH OF MINNEAPOLIS. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY THE BUS RUNS AND DRIVES YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PURCHASE THE BUS AND YOUR DEPOSIT WILL BE REFUNDED. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE CALL DJ @ 507-438-1038.
The starting bid was $ 3750.00 I think
Quote from: Brian Diehl on March 19, 2009, 10:17:16 AM
Hey,
I would strongly reconsider on the ISX. The motor is huge and weighs much more than an ISM. I had it memorized at sometime, but have forgotten. Also, you didn't mention anything about the ISX being rebuilt, so I will assume it hasn't. The motor is worn out. 1 million miles on an ISX is good mileage and there won't be much left for you to use before an overhaul is needed. Also, the price is pretty expensive. I bought the entire front clip of the truck I used for $7750. This included everything I needed. Personally, a 400hp ISM is plenty of power and plenty energy efficient. I get 9mpg with my setup and consider that great for a MCI 96A3. If you have any questions after going through my website feel free to email me.
BTW, I have over 10,000 miles on my swap and have no regrets!
-Brian
http://home.earthlink.net/~diehls0792_1/BusSection10.html
The exciting paragraph I like in Brian's project report was this:
QuoteOf course, after all that I had a hard time going to sleep last night. What an exciting day after all that hard work to have it run the way it is supposed to. Those Jake Brakes are cool too!
Now, due to so many shifts before 20mph it is a little slow off the line. Each shift is fast, but there are still a lot of shifts. Get it up into 6th and higher and put the foot into the throttle and you can really feel the engine come alive. Wow, does it accelerate fast! I can't believe how different that 4-stroke behaves from the old 6v92. It sounds different, accelerates like nothing I've ever experienced and cruises along at 1200 rpms! The one time I had high range without problems I hit 43 mph and the tranny was running in 9th gear with the engine loping along at 1200rpms. It was not lugging at all and when I put my foot into it just a little you could feel the jolt in the backside as it poured on the power. Gotta get that high range valve working right so I can get on the freeway and see how it handles the hills!
Brian...thank you for the very informative project report about swapping with low-profile design ISM engine.
Th Lord willing...that Sojourner will have a state-of-art engine put in soon after I get it home from FL to SC.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Quote from: blue_goose on March 19, 2009, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: Tornadex on March 19, 2009, 07:18:04 AM
Quote from: Sojourner on March 19, 2009, 06:27:14 AM
blue_goose...thank you sharing a DD 50 series swap photo.
Do you have more in regard to air-cooler, muffler and clearance on top of valve cover?
Is the crank-center line same as 6 or 8v92?
Thank you, Gerald
Cool picture, looks very neat!
TOR
Send me your email address and I will send more, too hard to send lots here.
Jack
Jack (blue_goose)...I know now you have done a few swap engines. That is great! Your photos are very helpful to see how DD 50 series work in MCI and Eagle. Nice job.
Thank you so much.
Hope it help Tornadex to deside which way it fit in his plan.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
The ISM should out preform a 6v92 you are talking about 8.5 litre 6v92 to 11 litre ISM which is closer to the 8v92 that would be like comparing the ISM to 14 litre 60 series .I have thought about a engine swap at one time I even had a new C-15 Cat crate engine for my Eagle but decided against.I have a 8v92 and get good fuel mileage and can keep up with 4 strokes in the 500hp range with no problems.Cole's 625 hp series 60 in his Eagle is a different story I have trouble hanging with him in the mountains.The math doesn't work for me spending big bucks for engine conversions and your bus doesn't gain anything in value and in today's market they are worth very little no matter what engine you have. Good luck
Welcome Tornadex,
There was a Holiday Sceptre RV on ebay a month ago with a ISM and a Allison 3060 with around 15k miles and he had no bids at 5K for the entire rig. There was a fire in the middle of the coach and he wasn't sure if the harnesses for the motor and tranny survived. I did some checking and if they are gone and you can't find them used somewhere, you are looking at around $2500 -3000 for the new harnesses.
The coach had an inverter and batteries all the gauges and he had a mechanic there who would help you remove what you need/want off the coach. It was at a junkyard so you can just leave what you don't want. Had low mile tires and other things which you could resell.
Keep in mind, there are alot of issues involved in a repower, rear end gears, metal fabrication etc.. so make a wise decision.
If you are not well versed in fabrication (welding,well equipped shop etc.) make sure you take ALL those hours into consideration. I labored over that decision and with Brian Diehl's sound input I came to the conclusion that I will delay any decisions until the day comes that I need to make one, In other words until my current engine,which runs great by the way, decides to either blow up or needs so much work that it makes no sense to continue without considering a repower I will stick with what I have. Brian has been so helpful at identifying the difference between a want or a need. If you add up the actual moments you spend on long 7-8% grades getting passed by those guys who do this professionally (and to them time is money!) and consider that the whole reason for having these buses is to stop and smell the roses once in a while and enjoy our drives you might find as I did that it is not worth the trouble and money unless you have to make a decision. I'm sure Brian would not have done any of this if his 6v92 hadn't started putting coolant in places it shouldn't be.
But if you have a serious savings account balance and a really good 2 stroke mechanic nearby you might find that it is worth all the effort/money. Good luck on your decision.
Rick
Engines that are really too big for engine swap outs- Cummins N14, ISX; Caterpillar 3406, C15, C16; Detroit Series 50 (because of height), Series 60, DD15; Volvo D16. More of the size for both ease of installation and servicing- Cummins ISM, ISL; Caterpillar C9, C12; Detroit (Mercedes-Benz) Series 4000, Volvo D13. All of the smaller engines will get at least 450hp and 1550lb/ft torque with the exception of the C9 and ISL that are in the 400hp and 1200lb/ft arena. Even the smaller "medium" sized engines will get around 500,000miles before overhaul. For what we do with our buses (being tourists), you don't need the bulk, size and weight of a full sized 1million mile rated truck engine to get the job done. Good Luck, TomC