Anyone have any special tricks for driving a bus on a muddy field? Ground clearance on my Dina is not an issue.
I am trying to convince my friends we should take the bus on a road trip next month, but we have to park on a grass field. They had a loit of rain last year and the field was quite muddy. The entrance and first 100 yards in is covered with rock, but obviously I can't park in the way of everybody else.
I am hoping it will be dry this year unlike last year.
My towing/roadside assistance here (CAA) wont cover a tow from a field. They will, however, cover a tow from a grassed area used as a camping area. Check beforehand what your provider will cover.
My 'trick' would be to position the coach with the tow hooks pointing to the nearest road ( for a nice, straight pull) and some planks under all the wheels (to keep from sinking while parked).
Have a great time, and I hope you need none of this.
Mark
Best "trick" for driving a bus in mud is don't. If you can stay on top of the grass without cutting through then you'll be OK but if its actually turning to mud then you're sunk - literally and figuratively. The best vehicles for driving in mud have high ground clearance and narrow tires or really low ground pressure (fat tires and/or light weight) and 4WD. Neither of those descriptions fits your bus. Point the tow hooks at the road and hope for the best or be prepared to wait for the field to dry out.
It looks like we'll just need to wait until the last minute to decide if we take the bus. Last year was the only year in four or five years that they got a lot of rain before the event which caused mud issues.
I think Coachnet will only tow within 100 yards of a paved or maintained road, but I have no idea about a field. I don't know how a roadside assistance company can determine a field from a camping area. We have camped here in the past, but it is just a grassy field.
I actually have a connection for a tow bar in the front, but not aware of any tow hooks on the back of the bus. (I guess they use tow bars in Mexico. I took the tow bar of out of the luggage bay as I don't know anybody who tows that way in the USA.)
I found out it helps to release the air pressure in the Tag Axle to put all your weight on the Drive Axle. We have a MCI-7 and it has air release valves on each side of the coach for this purpose. The wife would have appreciated knowing this in advance of having to dig the bus out of my parents front yard. It took several hours but we got it out.
Stay on the Pavement is the best advise, but if you do get stuck try releasing the Tag Axle air pressure and it might be just the trick. Be sure to bring the wife along in case that dosen't work though.
Bob
With all the ideas on this board, I am surprised that there is no kit available to turn your drive and tags into a halftrack. You could be the first. Riches await you.
Filling all tires with helium may help too.
We spend a fair amount of time in farm fields with our MC-5. And when it rains; we're stuck. Fortunately there are always tractors around to pull us out. My experience is if its soft, I don't even try it. I wait until a suitable tow vehicle is nearby and hook up the chain. Then I just let them pull me while I'm in low. The traction is really quite good as long as you don't dig yourself a hole to have to get pulled out of.
Fred, Some tractors are obviously better than others. This one didn't help much
Quote from: bcaddel on March 12, 2009, 07:57:41 PM
I found out it helps to release the air pressure in the Tag Axle to put all your weight on the Drive Axle. We have a MCI-7 and it has air release valves on each side of the coach for this purpose. The wife would have appreciated knowing this in advance of having to dig the bus out of my parents front yard. It took several hours but we got it out.
Stay on the Pavement is the best advise, but if you do get stuck try releasing the Tag Axle air pressure and it might be just the trick. Be sure to bring the wife along in case that dosen't work though.
Bob
I think the key to whether this would work would be the depth of the soft mud. If it's shallow, this would work. If the soft mud is deep, the added weight would sink the drive tires deeper. So maybe a good test before risking miring in deeper would be to run a shovel or stick into the ground to see if how deep the soft mud goes.
lift the tags and put boards underneath, then put the pressure back in the tags, it will lift the bus so you can put boards or gravel under the drives.
Hey Belfert Eagles have tow bars also no hooks good luck
Call me when it happens again, I have a SIL that you can throw under the tires for traction lol.
I am thinking this just isn't going to happen. The guys going would love to take the bus, and so would I, but the risk of getting stuck is pretty high.
The only way I can see this happening is if one of the farmers that own the site let us park at their house and we have our chase vehicle shuttle everybody over to the site. This is a very small event and the guy who runs the event knows all the farmers for a mile in any direction.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on March 12, 2009, 07:21:04 PM
Best "trick" for driving a bus in mud is don't. If you can stay on top of the grass without cutting through then you'll be OK but if its actually turning to mud then you're sunk - literally and figuratively. The best vehicles for driving in mud have high ground clearance and narrow tires or really low ground pressure (fat tires and/or light weight) and 4WD. Neither of those descriptions fits your bus. Point the tow hooks at the road and hope for the best or be prepared to wait for the field to dry out.
best way to avoid a backing accident??? hahahaha hope you get unstuck with no damage lol
Quote from: Stormcloud on March 12, 2009, 07:15:47 PM
My 'trick' would be to position the coach with the tow hooks pointing to the nearest road ( for a nice, straight pull) and some planks under all the wheels (to keep from sinking while parked).
My experience is to avoid a muddy field at all costs.
But if it was dry when I arrived I would heed Stormclouds advice and park on some planks.
When I first purchased my bus I had to park in the pasture until an area was prepared for it. Once after a rain I could not move it, after that I parked on some planks and it gave me the ability to get forward motion, which allowed me to drive across and out of the field, Non stop of course.
YMMV
Cliff
I thought I would bring up Richard's rope trick again. See the link below.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=2484.msg26093;topicseen#msg26093
Tom Hamrick
Quote from: FloridaCliff on March 13, 2009, 06:31:09 AM
My experience is to avoid a muddy field at all costs.
What Cliff said.
I put my bus on the frame one spring when the frost went out underneath where I had parked it. I thought it was OK there but it warmed up during the day and when I tried to move, down it went. I used a 2-1/2 yard loader with forks to move it - put the forks under the engine cradle to take some of the weight off the drivers and hooked to the safety rings for my towbar. The details of the tow aren't important other than to reinforce that it takes really big rigging to get these things unstuck if you get them seriously stuck. Parking on planks isn't going to help if you drive off the plank onto soggy ground.
Just don't do it. I once saw a 4104 that belonged to a college. Some students had driven it on the beach and got stuck. In less than 30 minutes, they destroyed the engine, transmission and clutch. An incompetent wrecker pretty much destroyed the rest of the bus.
Get a 4 wheel drive schoolie or stay on the hard stuff.
Lets say you got a MC5 stuck... where would one wrap the chains?
Only place to hook on on a 5 is the tow hooks under the tire compartment. When i got mine the hooks were missing so after a couple of years i decided i better get a set in case i ever got stuck. MCI wanted a fortune for them so i got a set from Sam Caylor for a reasonable price. Never have used them but at least now i got them. ;D
Do not spin the tires on a coach.
Do not go on soft ground with a coach.
Do not put the coach in a position where it may spin the tires.
Think hard about letting the coach park on ground that is not improved without a board under all the tires.
If the tires sink in even a half inch, the force needed to get it out of that little dip is large, spin them in deep like the above picture, there is great risk of damage to the coach during recovery attempts.
Do not spin the tires on a coach.
Having sufficient number of 2'x2' 3/4 plywood boards that you can walk the coach forward one board at a time will get you off the ground that went soft after the rain. See how they did it in the Sahara during WWII with those metal sand rails, and some hardcore types still do today, for "recreation".
So, 6 boards to park on, and 4 more to use to walk it out, 6 makes it easier, with the tag and drive axle boards so close to sharing. They may also be used to help with leveling, but aren't available for escape if they are piled under the wheels already.
Tire chains? If already stuck, in the hands of a novice, they'll be good for digging the hole deeper, quicker, if you can even get them installed.
Did I mention, do not spin the tires on a coach?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
This is a very interesting thread. I have always been concerned about getting stuck and now I am even more concerned. I like the ideas about the stretch line and the walking boards, and I wish I had a tag as I had never thought of the advantages of being able to lift the tag and then put blocking under it to raise the drives. Years ago I got snowed in 300 yds down a country road (freak early snowstorm) I was contemplating using boards to walk the car out of there when a local farmer helped me out. Still wish I had had a chance to try that....maybe one day with the bus.
I am going to put my vote in for Belfert parking in the field, getting stuck and then polling the board for recovery suggestions ;)
Getting stuck (and unstuck) can be a lot of fun and a genuine testosterone fest. But its best done with small things like Jeeps or quads. The larger the unit the bigger the chance that something expensive is going to get broke. I've been around stuck farm tractors, stuck highway tractors and had my bus stuck - "don't go there" is the best solution. We once had a high floatation truck stuck so bad that it took a backhoe and a Cat with a winch to get it out. The problem with getting something big stuck is that the damage is often unseen and lurks for a few days or weeks and then appears at the worst possible and most expensive moment.
Considering all that's been said, a wise person would not put themselves in such a position. However, is a bus owner a wise person? Now, if you really want to try it, it would seem it could be done with the right preparation. As mentioned, you can walk the bus over some bad terrain using plywood boards. There may be other materials that would work also. So, if you went prepared with at least eight 8 foot lengths of 1 inch plywood, you should be able to move forward eight foot at a time. That would only be 2 sheets of plywood if you went with 1 foot width. If, as it seems, you will have a whole crew of guys with you to move the boards, it may not take too long to go 100 yards.
I once was passing the Algondones sand dunes off I-8 when they were filming "Stargate." They were doing the shooting far from the roads. As we looked, we saw a wonderful sight. A new limousine was speeding across the sands as if it was on the interstate. I do not know what material they had laid down, but we do know that it was temporary, and probably easy to do. I always think back and wish I had gotten a picture of it. The point is that if you really want to do it, it can be done.
If you really want to get creative, back during our little squabble with the folks in china and North Vietnam, a bridge over a branch of the Mekong river was blown down.... (and NO IT WAS NOT MY FAULT.... ), VC and NVA would use that river branch as an access for resupply without fear of interference from the US military..... Until....
Some bright guy had the idea to bring in a couple of heavy lift helo's and portage about 6 PBR's beyond the bridge. Boy, I'll bet the VC were surprised when they saw those boats open fire from just a few meters offshore.
I've forgotten what model of helicopter was used, but it had a lift capacity of 11 tons, which was what the dry weight of the PBR was.
Now, if you got 2 of those helicopters, you could put them together and have no problem moving that itty bitty Dina out of the muck!
Maybe for fun, you could add some un-copyrighted LED's without resistors to light up the area.
These guys could probably help you out.
http://www.pacificwood.com/crane-mats.cfm
Old 4103,
They were probably Sikorsky "Flying Cranes". What's a PBR?
Dennis
Quote from: Hi yo silver on March 13, 2009, 01:37:06 PM
Old 4103,
They were probably Sikorsky "Flying Cranes". What's a PBR?
Dennis
PBR= Pabst Blue Ribbon. ;D ;D
Quote from: belfert on March 12, 2009, 07:07:39 PM
Anyone have any special tricks for driving a bus on a muddy field? Ground clearance on my Dina is not an issue.
I am trying to convince my friends we should take the bus on a road trip next month, but we have to park on a grass field. They had a loit of rain last year and the field was quite muddy. The entrance and first 100 yards in is covered with rock, but obviously I can't park in the way of everybody else.
I am hoping it will be dry this year unlike last year.
My trick is that I don't do it.
Think about this a little. If you weigh 200 lbs and wear size 10 shoes, each step you take you are putting less than 5 lbs of pressure on each square inch of footprint.
Your coach puts over 50 lbs on each square inch of footprint.
Now, I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but . . .
Quote from: viento1 on March 13, 2009, 08:36:12 AM
Lets say you got a MC5 stuck... where would one wrap the chains?
Around the neck of the guy who drove it into the mud.
BTW Belfert if you do do this and get stuck, please assign one of your crew to just take pics and vids, I'm pretty sure the rest of you will be too muddy to handle a camera
Viento 1:
I don't think those recovery hooks on the front of our MC-5s are much good for other than helping it along. I think a dead pull from a big wrecker or tractor would rip them right out. THey're not secured under there very well. The last time I was in a muddy field, i didn't even try driving out; until I got someone on a tractor and they pulled on one of those hooks while I drove. Also, the MC-5 is somewhat lighter than the 40 footers.
Fred
Quote from: Hi yo silver on March 13, 2009, 01:37:06 PM
Old 4103,
They were probably Sikorsky "Flying Cranes". What's a PBR?
Dennis
PBR = Patrol Boat, River. It was the next version of the SWIFT boat.
It was fast and sneaky... 2 -200+ HP 6V53 Detroits, using water jet propulsion.
Find an old brown water sailor and I'll bet he could give you a lot more info than I can. I only got to ride on them and play with the single .50 BMG in the stern.
(Edit: The helicopters were CH-54 Flying Cranes. I wish I had been there to see it, but I was too young at the time). -DFDallas
I got stuck on hard dry sand ::), the tires just spun. As luck would have it, Jack had his 4 x and pulled me the two feet to pavement.
Mud,,, wet grass,,, you must be kidding...... ;D
Staying on the road,
Bill
It looks I might not be taking the bus at all or at least not onto the field. The reports I have heard that so far they are having more rain than last year, but that could change in the next five weeks.
If we take the bus the best option is probably to park at one of the nearby farm houses and shuttle ourselves and our gear to the field with our chase vehicle.
I also have to worry about spring load restrictions here in Minnesota. I think the road in front of my house is limited to 10 tons per axle which is not an issue, but I do worry about my asphalt driveway handling the weight during the thaw.
If i ever get my 5A stuck i will hook onto both tow hooks to spread out the load evenly. I used to be a logger for 4 years in my younger days and have had to help get D-8s and D-9s unstuck from some places where we thought we would never get them out of. Believe me, you get a cat buried up to the floorboards in mud and you got some problems. ;D
That "nylon rope" approach is used all the time by the OFF ROAD 4X4 guys. They use a commercial product and I think the name is "snatch" something. It comes in different tests and starts at a few thousand pounds and goes up to tens of thousand pounds. The absolute beauty of this system is that a 2 thousand pound vehicle can act like a much bigger guy. They slack the strap and get a run at it and hit the rope running. The rope stretches out a long way and they stop and lock the brakes. The tension on the line is 4 thousand pounds so a little guy can snatch out a big 4X4. A big 4X4 rig can get a bus unstuck....within reason. Don't sell this stuff short.
You get it going fast enuf, a cement truck will speed across sand and keep going. I used to help people in sedans get unstuck at the Sab Diego bay all the time. It is a difficult sell to a guy that to get back to the road that is mere yards from him that he has to mush through the sand, down hill, till he hits the wet sand. Then he has to back up 50 yards and hit it hard and turn up hill when he gets her up to 40 mph. My words were "now you are only going to get one shot at this so KEEP YOUR FOOT IN IT TILL YOU GET ON THE ROAD>>>>DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?". I saw some spectacular launches back onto the road and fun was had by all us frequent beach goers. The only way to get there is to drive away from it and down towards the water and the tide is coming in. Oh! The looks.
John
I have heard that those bungees can also be quite a sight if they snap.
Lin,
Oh! Without the shadow of a doubt. They must have some procedure cause they use em all the time and swear by them. I know that the "bungee" must be matched to the weight of the tow vehicle. These things are pro and the beauty is that a small vehicle can tug a monster truck out with seeming ease. Even 4X4 Dudes would stop using somthing that was killen em. No wait, they are 4 wheelers.
John
what about doing a thelma and louise with bungee cords attached to your bus undercarriage?
No matter which method of recovery is attempted, the forces involved in dragging the coach UP out of the hole you spun or sunk it into, and then out through the slop....
Those forces are applied to whatever part you attached to. This is not your father's Oldsmobile. Which very small point of contact is going to take that force?
There are few, if any places on the coach that were intended to be dragged on, and even those were not designed to pull it out of the mud or snow, their major purpose to pull the coach around on improved surfaces at the shop.
Add in that often the pull is not linear to the direction of travel, pulling off to the side by the restrictions of the place and ground conditions...
Add in that the age and condition of our coaches have put their engineering well past the "best before" date...
Add in that you cannot control the behavior of both the puller and the pullee, as you are the one with the vested interest and you can't be in both places at once... you'll get lots of "help" that couldn't care less what rips off, they want entertainment, or an education, or an income, at the expense of someone else.
Too many variables and the ability to apply forces to parts of the coach that simply were never intended to be forced like that...
This realm of heavy coach off-roading is an area of do-it-yourself that has a steep price for learning the hard way, and nobody learns anything about recovery without breaking stuff.
However, whatever floats your boat, there are some adventures that are worth the price of admission!
BE SAFE, always be thinking about where the towing gear is going to go if it snaps or tears loose from where it is attached, at both ends. Spectators stay back at least twice the distance of the gear, further the better, no hurrying, establish clear signals between participants, be thoughtful of the potential for spilling your vital fluids onto the ground, will the landowner take the stuck coach as a cabin?
Your coach, your money, your way!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Perhaps this might be the solution.
http://www.blue-bird.com/uploadedFiles/Blue-Bird/Products/Activity/All-American/4WheelDriveFlyer.pdf
Although I do not believe that John is looking to build a new coach for this adventure, doesn't crown have multi-wheel drive buses?
You dont need 4x4. You just need a close friend with one of these.