What should I be looking for and what should I pay. It has no history but the engine compartment looks clean. Starts right up with no funny noises. No generator. Solid wood cabinets inside. 4 speed tranny. New tires. No gas guage?
http://www.payemployees.com (http://www.payemployees.com)
http://www.leslieandassociates.com (http://www.leslieandassociates.com)
That's some tuff questions.
Welcome to the board.
May be you could look at it in a different way like,
Tires =$2000.00
Inverter=$2000.00
Paint $2000.00
Interior $2000.00
Bus=$2000.00
ECT.
??? ??? ???
Things to look for:
Dry rot on: hoses, tires, air bags, radius bushings, window gaskets
Dents. Skins are getting harder to come by for a 50 year old bus.
Cracks in the bulkhead forward of the engine.
Any wierdness done to the engine cradle.
Wiring issues - this will have cloth wrapped wiring. If it has been wet for years, expect to do some work.
Good luck!
Glenn
And make darn sure it has the original cooling system on it. I learned this one the hard way. If MacGyver owned the bus, steer clear.
Where is the bus in Oregon?
FWIW
Doug
I have a 1960 04 great coach
Tires =$2000.00
Inverter=$2000.00
Paint $2000.00
Interior $2000.00
Bus=$2000.00
Gen=$2000.00
John
Forgot to add - ask about how it is insulated! I'm pretty sure with that old of a conversion it won't be adequate for real hot days. Does it have air conditioners? Do they work? Propane system? Removable tanks or mounted to the chassis. Some places won't fill the mounted ones.
Glenn
I recommend having it checked out by a bus mechanic before you buy it.
Taxhelp, $5,000 and up. Look on Ebay, Craigslist, RV Trader, and also BNO classified. Look at prices and pics. You may have found one worth $50,000, but not likely. If you can put pics on here some will help find the pitfalls. Goodluck. Tom Y
not near enough info to give you any kind of idea. might be a scrap value unit or 50k as stated.
Drive it, see if the engine runs well. Oil press at least 50psi, cooling temp at least 180*. If it runs cold see if the original shutters in front of the radiator still work. You will be very lucky if they do. After a good hard drive check for oil thrown on the rear engine cover. Any oil probably means leaking front or rear engine main seals.
Make sure it has the original power boost steering or a new integrated power steering system. You don't want to have just manual steering.
See if it shifts reasonably well. If not the rod ends and pins are probably worn out. Same for the clutch. This is one of the hardest machines to shift smoothly I have ever driven but you feel really good when you do!!
Check that you can shift from neutral to any gear with the engine running without grinding gears. Don't laugh, this is very common.
See if the rear wet air tank is still connected. Many of them aren't because they have rusted through. The easy way to find out is ask the owner to drain the tank for you. If no air comes out the tank has been bypassed. Don't ask me how I know this!!
Signs of exhaust leaking into the rear of the bus, these mufflers are designed to rust out at the top out of sight. They start very nice fires in the bedroom!
I wouldn't pay more than $15 - 25K for any 4104 without an AT or in VERY exceptional condition. They are great and I love mine but that is all they are worth.
They have the real advantage of being constructed almost entirely of Al so you don't have the dissimilar metal corrosion problems of a lot of others.
The air suspension system is a real pain in the rear but nice riding when in good condition. Make sure it inflates and levels the bus within 10 - 15min when the air tanks are completely empty. Make sure it holds air pressure at least an hour or two. Anything over that is a bonus!!
Air spring parking brakes are much preferred, the old manual brake isn't much good.
The post about insulation is good advice. The 4104 ceiling insulation isn't much and the normal rooftop AC will not do the job. It takes a minimum of two and they both should be as near the driver as possible. Believe me on this!! The top should be painted no other color than white.
The wiring will be a mess if original and probably nothing like the original wiring diagrams because it will have been altered so many times.
Make sure the rear escape door is clear and works. You don't want to get caught in the rear by a fire. The original side windows swing out from the top for emergency escape but too many of them have been blocked by conversion. Check them out.
See if the original bus heating system works, it is great if it does but not critical if another system has been installed. Make sure the front W/S defroster works. This thing ices up like crazy without it. The wipers need to work well too, parts for the wiper control valves are not available and parts for the motors are not easy to find.
Check for cracks in the corners at front and rear W/S, if they are cracked the body is probably sagging and cracked somewhere else.
That is probably enough to keep you busy for a while!!
Post some pics here so we can see what you are looking at. I saw a beautiful '04 the other day listed on an estate sale only $2000 with all the house systems etc intact and the bottom half was still good looking unpainted undented aluminum. Very nice bus for the price.
I have to admit I have this fixation for an old bus. I love the way the look and sound. In this economy though it's scary to by buying a money pit. I am so grateful for the advice. I have read each one and will apply them.
I just saw one on ebay that might be a good find. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170305416244&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem= (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170305416244&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=)
What do you say? Ebay item number Item number: 170305416244
Not a gmc but???
http://www.payemployees.com (http://www.payemployees.com)
http://www.leslieandassociates.com (http://www.leslieandassociates.com)
If you are going to buy a GMC bus I think one
of THE MOST IMPORTANT issues is the condition
of the differential! It took the combined parts of
three rear ends to accumulate enough good
hard parts to rebuild a good unit. Bearings alone
are in the 600.00 range.
You will also need to build fixtures to hold components
for proper torqueing and assembly if you do it yourself.
I did mine according to the book and it was no small job.
Dave Rasor 4104-2375
This board has recently seen a case of someone leaping before they looked. Personally I believe a 4104 is a very good choice, they are get decent milage and are easy to work on. They can also be bought for very little $. But it really doesnt' matter what you get you need to do research in advance....MCIs have their problems, Eagles have their problems, all the rest as well (can't remember what BK spent on the rear end for the Setra just remember I could have bought a running 4104 for that much$). If you like the looks of a 4104 that's as good a reason as any. Just be warned there are unforeseen expenses with any bus, that's why we're called busnuts, it doesn't make sense...but it makes sense...no it doesn't....maybe I'll drive 30 miles to my bus and crawl around in the snow and put in the new air tank.....maybe I won't...seems like a good idea, it's only -15.....at least there aren't any mosquitos....
With good deals I ended up with three 4104,s one 57 and two 1960,s. my first purchase was 25 years ago. All rear ends,engines,transmissions are in great shape. The 4104 is very easy to maintain, all the engine parts are easily assessable, ( except for the mufflers)
The 04 is a great bus,
John
Quote from: irstaxhelp on February 25, 2009, 08:54:14 AM
What should I be looking for and what should I pay. It has no history but the engine compartment looks clean. Starts right up with no funny noises. No generator. Solid wood cabinets inside. 4 speed tranny. New tires. No gas guage?
What you should pay is highly subjective. I'm selling a 4903 for $4500 (obo), but it's entirely possible that the older, smaller coach you're looking at is worth twice that much. It could also be a stack of scrap parts looking for the chance to come unglued.
Does the owner have any of the history of the coach?
For that matter, is he "plugged into" the busnut community (one of us) or someone who has no clue what resources are available?
How well done is the conversion? Is it well laid out, with good workmanship, or does it look like it was put together in a hurry by someone who just got a staplegun for his birthday? Are you satisfied with the layout, or will you be wanting to make changes?
Sometimes you are better off starting with an empty shell.
Evaluate the coach based on your own needs. If it doesn't fit them, then there's no need to get too deep into the mechanical condition. If it fits, then have an expert check the running gear and power train for you. He or she can also give you an idea what the thing is worth.
Any opinions on this bus? Ebay item # Item number: 140305330804
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140305330804&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=] (http://[/url)http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140305330804&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=
http://www.payemployees.com (http://www.payemployees.com)
http://www.leslieandassociates.com (http://www.leslieandassociates.com)
I bought the bus today for 5K and drove it home and it shifted perfect except for downshifting to 2nd. I did have to double clutch it. But I did a good job if I may say so. I can't wait to get pictures up to see what you all think. The steering I believe is manual since it has to turn many times to negotiate a corner! The engine sounds great however does leak drops of oil after driving. The air suspension does seem to work but I did not test how long after shut off it stays up since I got home after dark. All electrical seems to work but one tail light. also I can' t keep the door shut with out a rope from the inside. It locks open but not shut. It has two rooftop a/c's however I have not tried them yet since there is no generator. All the tanks, instant hot water unit and heater look new.
I will post pics tomorrow hopefully. - John
john@irstaxhelp.com
http://www.irstaxhelp.com (http://www.irstaxhelp.com)
http://www.irstaxlien.com (http://www.irstaxlien.com)
Welcome to the madness, if it's in decent shape I think 5K is a fair price for a 04 with house systems intact. My experience in buying old vehicles is that you really only see about 25% of the problems when you first inspect it. The good news is that the other 75% of stuff will show up slowly and most of it will allow you a little time before it needs fixin. BTW if you are already shifting easily and only 2nd is giving you grief on the downshift your bus is drivetrain is already better than mine. Also if you don't have spring brakes make sure your handbrake works and is properly adjusted (also watch the air pressure all the time). Finally the links you posted are expired, some pics would be nice. After all you have the best bus there is now.
http://picasaweb.google.com/MrJohnLeslie/1960Bus# (http://picasaweb.google.com/MrJohnLeslie/1960Bus#)
Now I want to add a generator, need wipers and who knows where else to start! What do you say?
http://www.irstaxhelp.com (http://www.irstaxhelp.com)
http://www.irstaxlien.com (http://www.irstaxlien.com)
Sweet!
Skip
Nice coach. If the major components work well you did good. I like the possibilities....Cable
Very Nice Looking Bus and welcome to the abyss. M&C ;D
Nice looking coach, little cleaning up, I'm sure you want to do some up dating, but over all sweet deal
So if I want to add power steering and automatic trany am I crazy?
http://www.irstaxhelp.com (http://www.irstaxhelp.com)
http://www.irstaxlien.com (http://www.irstaxlien.com)
You're not crazy..............
You're just like the rest of us.....BUS NUTS...... ::)
Good Find, now go have fun and BE SAFE!
Paul
Well, yes, I would say those two things would be a bit crazy to add to a 4104.
The reasons are that the 671 engine does not work well with an AT and it probably won't fit very well anyway.
Power steering is a major job and very expensive. Adding the original type hyd boost system would not be so hard or expensive if you can find one on an old bus. However, it is not true power steering and not a great improvement over manual except in tight maneuvering.
If you wanted these you would have been better off getting a 4106, at least from the AT standpoint.
All this being said, it is a great, reasonably sized bus and a lot of fun, and you got it for a great price.
I recommend the Honda gas, water cooled EV6010, 6KW, gen because of the reasonable price and the fact that you already have a separate gas tank for it.
crazy maybe
but the 6v92 and 730 in the back of huggy and the full time power steering in the front say drive me more.
welcome to the bus nut family and the clan of happy 04 owners.
and a ff says do it your way
uncle ned
huggy bear
4104 with 6v92&730
Okay after scraping off tall the dried moss and hosing out the cargo bins it looks to be in very solid shape. ;D
IT does have a clutch burn smell that I think I did driving it home. We live on a steep bank :(
The door will not stay shut but does lock open with the handle. Any suggestions?
One rear window is cracked
Short in the fuse panel
No fuel guage (how do I tell the fuel level?)
Otherwise that seems to be it
john@irstaxhelp.com
http://www.Leslieandassociates.com (http://www.leslieandassociates.com)
http://www.irstaxhelp.com (http://www.irstaxhelp.com)
http://www.irstaxlien.com (http://www.irstaxlien.com)
http://www.payemployees.com (http://www.payemployees.com)
John, a fuel gauge on a bus can be more likely to cause you trouble (false readings). Knowing the size of the tank (probably 125 gallons), most of us keep track and just fuel every 500-600 miles (personal preference). Someone on here posted a quick dipstick method, a length of garden hose (I like Romex wire).
Regarding the clutch & shifting, RJ Long wrote a great article on how to drive & shift, with a focus on dead throttle starts. Bottom line, you never want to give the diesel fuel when starting off, there is enough torque from the diesel. You never want to slip the clutch, they have limited life spans. It's not like a gas job where you're balancing throttle and clutch. BTW, I have a few decades in the bus business, including time as a driving instructor on 4905's, and I never saw an explanation as good as RJ's. I don't remember where it is, hopefully he, or someone else, can find it and post the link.
Regarding the door adjustment, the process is in the maintenance manual. One of the best things you can do for yourself is get a copy of the Operator's Manual (driving, controls), the Maintenance Manual, and the Parts Manual.
It's also a good idea to post your location in your signature line. Who knows, one of us may be around the corner.
Arthur
How do I find out about any events in my area?
Hi, welcome. I too am new to the busnut world. Looks like you got a great bus.
I believe the advice for putting your location in your signature was to help connect you with other busnuts rather than up coming events.
Busnuts are scattered around North America. On the board I've seen one other Lakeside person.
I live in the UTC area of SD. Perhaps I can help you with some business contacts. I've had both good and bad experiences. Other than that, I'm so new that I'm still trying figure out how oil jumps off the engine onto my clothes and learning how to get it out of my clothes.
I know of only one event coming up and I'm hoping to be ready. Every January there is a big get together in Quartzite AZ.
Mike
That is great. I am in Lakeside and I can't imagine where you store your bus in UTC!
Let's keep in touch and where can I find out more about the January meet?
Articles of interest
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16204.html?1167073154 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16204.html?1167073154)
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16203.html?1167072614)
Read and heed! ;)
Paul
Quote from: Runcutter on August 27, 2009, 01:19:08 PM
Regarding the clutch & shifting, RJ Long wrote a great article on how to drive & shift, with a focus on dead throttle starts. . . .I have a few decades in the bus business, including time as a driving instructor on 4905's, and I never saw an explanation as good as RJ's.
Arthur -Thank you for those kind words, they are appreciated.
Paul -Thank you for posting the links to my articles. I'm sure John can and will find them helpful, along with other newbies.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Those links should be a sticky in the Help Section. Or maybe RJ you can copy and paste them.
Very valuable information for anyone driving these beasts with a crash box. Now I know where that term came from! ;D
Paul
I agree on making the links prominent in the Help section. That's where I went looking for them before I ran out of time. We might also consider referring any new participant to them, before he/she gets in the seat of their new bus for the first time. Even experienced gas-job stick shift drivers wouldn't know about dead-throttle starts ---- unless someone tells them.
Our first trip in the 4107 consisted of picking the coach up in New Hampshire, running back to Massachusetts to pick up the Mother in Law, taking her to far eastern New Brunswick, then coming back to Texas. Although I hadn't driven a deck in about 30 years, I still knew how - just had to polish the rust off my right arm and left foot. Without that knowledge, I could have easily done some damage to the clutch in that distance.
John, did you receive the door-adjusting information I faxed to you yesterday afternoon?
Arthur
I did Arthur. I plan on looking into it this weekend. Also the emergency brake does not stay in place when I pull it. So I have to issues to check into. Oh and not to mention that the bus drives great and very soft at that however it does not rise or go down after the engine is off for a while. I hear this little air noise every 45 seconds or so after shutting off. Any ideas? Like a pfffft ------- then again
IRSTAXHELP (Interesting moniker) - sounds like (literally) you have an air dryer - and it is just 'spitting' (sounds like an AD-9) moisture each time the Air Governor cycles - HTH
Power steering is a major job and very expensive. Adding the original type hyd boost system would not be so hard or expensive if you can find one on an old bus. However, it is not true power steering and not a great improvement over manual except in tight maneuvering
Gus,
I have power assist on one 4104 and Shepard on another. You can not tell the diffrence they both steer very well.
Depending on the road conditions both have a slight wander.
John
Good info on the differences between sheppard and older power assist.
re the pffft... from your pics doesn't look like you have an air dryer (cleanest engine bay I have seen on a bus that hasn't been redone though)
could be a few things, regulator perhaps.....localize where the sound come from that will help. Read up on buses in the archives that will help a lot. Chock your wheels and work out what's wrong with the hand brake (do you have spring brakes as well?)
Air Dryer?
Removes moisture from the recently compressed air, usually sits just upstream of the compressor. More modern buses have it, it's the things that hisses and spits for no apparent reason.
So in my manual it say I have to drain them daily. is that because I don't have an air dryer? Sorry I am such a rookie!
Daily if you are using the bus and lots of air. If you want to get up to speed on bus systems start here http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?board=1.11300 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?board=1.11300)
and read/scan everything tell you get back to this post at that point you will know all about air dryers, air brakes, tires, relays, generators..etc etc... interesting reading for a busnut. FWIW the biggest safety issue for me with a '04 is no spring brakes. I'm installing some on mine right now, fairly easy, and good for a lot of piece of mind. Without spring brakes an '04 with a ruptured main air line has to try and stop with just the hand brake, and I have already replaced some old copper main line, there was considerable pitting on the surface where it passed through a bulkhead, and that was with an intact protective sleeve
Here's (http://www.bendixvrc.com/itemDisplay.asp?documentID=3604) a pretty good explanation of how a dryer functions and why.
I don't see a dryer on my bus? where would it be an shouldn't it have one?
Guess I was not clear before. Your bus did not come from the factory with an air dryer, (they may not have even been invented yet when your bus was built). You can install one if you like, but an '04 will do fine without one, just remember to drain your tanks. If you really have nothing else to do, and can find the space you can install one.
John L,
Sorry to be so late but I've been away from any computer since the first of Sep, it was actually kind of nice!! We just returned from a 5000 mi trip to Seattle and back from AR.
It appears to me you have a great buy and I know you'll enjoy it in the coming years. There will be times of frustration but it is well worth it.
We usually come through Riverside every spring on our way to Seattle from San Diego, maybe we will stop by to see how you are doing. This year was an exception.
If you have any 4104 specific questions feel free to email me although johns4104s and some others are the real 4104 experts.
johns4104s,
Good to know that Sheppard is no better than the stock boosted steering, now I won't be lusting after Sheppard any more!!
Are you back from AZ yet?
I have two 4104's. one with power assist and one with full time.
Believe me there is a big difference.
uncle ned
Now I sure don't know what to do!!
Quote from: uncle ned on September 14, 2009, 06:08:21 PM
I have two 4104's. one with power assist and one with full time.
Believe me there is a big difference.
uncle ned
I'm wondering exactly what are the differences? ANd are both systems in good shape?
Yes both systems are in good shape.The power assist still has the big wheel and has a little play. Has all new joints and front steering components.It stills seems like it takes constant correction to keep it going straight.
The full time has a small wheel ,tilt wheel and finger tip steering. No wander going down the road. Trucks and other big vehicles do not make it wander.
a pleasure to drive.
uncle ned
ps may just be getting old and lazy but i like the auto also
Ned,
What AT/engine do you have in the one 4104?
6c92 &730
ned
6v92&730
ned "fatfingers"
I could really use 3 window handles. The ones that are on the inside that lock. Do I need to put a picture up? Anyone have any idea where to get them?
Ned,
Thanks, I've heard this is a good combination. Did it come from a transit?
irstaxhelp ,
Try Ed at Jefferson Bus in OKC, 800-813-9367
Yes I like the combination but if i were doing it now I would find a transit with a series 50 and a zf or the reversing allison.
Jack Campbell has used them in his eagle and his son Jerry's mci.
Makes a great combo and does not have the heat problems that a hot 6v92.
Have saw several on auction in last little bit.
love my 04 it goes where a lot of 40 footers can not,national parks and the like.
getting ready for bk's if i can get across the mountains.
uncle ned
Can anyone tell me where to get new felt for hte channels on my sliding Edwards windows? I also need the handles too.
Uncle Ned,
If the full time steering mounted on Huggy,s old bus is the one you are refuring to. Then i remember when Huggy Bear installed it he also added the hubbs, arms, drums and brakes from the same transit which together made the steering much better than any 04 with only shepard.
I will soon be selling a 4104 that Bob Voreck owned, Huggy Bear did all the updates to this coach, shepard steering, transit hubbs, cruise, E-3 brake valve and starjet paint (the roof is showing signs of peeling clear coat). Other than that it one of the best looking 4104,s on the road, 3 to 4 months away.
John
You Gatta Picture You Can Post....Might Have Some Interest?
Thanks
JOHN
It's done! New upholstery, Carpet, Paint and generator plus much much more. Check it out! http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t431cmkpeEw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t431cmkpeEw#ws)
http://www.leslieandassociates.com (http://www.leslieandassociates.com)
Very nice looking 4104, one of my favorite coaches. Well done!
Paul
I have a generator and was wondering if I should change to an alternator?
If I want to change from a 4 speed to auto can someone point me to a good thread or comment on which trany and why?
Okay here it is after rebuild. Now let's see if I can sell it!
http://youtu.be/DU16eh16nxo (http://youtu.be/DU16eh16nxo)
http://youtu.be/DU16eh16nxo (http://youtu.be/DU16eh16nxo)
I'm impressed, did you paint the anodized (non-blue) part of the bus or is the anodized aluminum original?
Very clean engine...
Rick
How sweet! What is that beautiful sound? ;D Nothing sounds like a 6-71, does it?
Original. There are a few divits here and there though.