I would assume that if you get close enough where your bus doesnt have to cut through the air, it would save gas. I try to do it as much as i can, you gotta get pretty close but the truckers dont seem to mind. But i was just wondering if it actually works to save gas.
Mythbusters tested this one a while back and it did save gas, but they also said it was stupid to do in real life.
too close ... not enough reaction time ... no ability to see ahead and prepare for emergency lane changes ... etc
The simple answer: Yes, by drafting you can save some fuel.
The intelligent answer:
By drafting, you eliminate any reaction time to problems, because you're forward vision is severely hampered by the 18-wheeler's big box trailer. And since you're driving a bus, that also means that YOU are going to be the very first person upon the accident scene. Not a pretty sight just to save 1/2 mpg of fuel.
FYI, at 60 mph, you're covering 88 feet PER SECOND! That means, if you're drafting a 53-foot 18-wheeler's trailer at 60 mph, if he stops suddenly, before you even react to his sudden stop, you're already halfway thru his trailer.
Because of the weight and stopping distances required by a coach, you should ALWAYS try to maintain a 1 second per 10 mph following distance from the vehicle in front of you. Notice I didn't say one car-length per 10 mph, I said one second per 10 mph. That means a six second gap in front of you at 60 mph. If you try to maintain that space cushion in front of your coach, you'll never end up being the first one at the accident scene.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: iminaccess on February 09, 2009, 09:47:18 AM
I try to do it as much as i can, you gotta get pretty close but the truckers dont seem to mind.
I assure you, at least some of us mind it very much. I find it rude and dangerous. :( Mitch
I spent quite a few years driving 18 wheelers and that was a pet peave of mine. The last thing I wanted to do was spend a day doing paperwork over a tailgater that couldn't stop on time. If they wouldn't grab the suddle hints I would use the gravel shoulder to help them figure it out.
When I was driving my truck cross country, I also had the same opinion as busshawg. If someone was tailgating, I just started slowing down till they passed-sometimes down to 20mph! Good Luck, TomC
If you do it right the trucker doesn't even know you are there ;D
The Mythbuster segment on this showed you could save fuel, but you had to be within about 10-12 feet of the back of the semi. At that distance, you are totally blind to what is going on in front of the semi. Anyone who does this should be arrested for attempted suicide. Jack
PS: This ain't NASCAR
got it...the cons outweigh the 'pros' which arent even drastic enough to be considered 'pros'
especially with todays gas prices, 1/2 mpg more isnt that worth it.
Not to be argumentative, Jack, as you know I agree with your opinion on tailgating, but IIRC, fuel savings started showing at 2-300 feet? (still WAY too close) The savings went up dramatically as the distance decreased.
One might also note the segment in the same episode showing the damage caused by a blown trailer tire from the lead truck.
Mitch
I have used a truck to keep me on the road once comming home from Daytona in my old Eagle. We had just entered California and were around Blithe. The wind was blowing everyone over except the loaded trucks. I talked to a truck on the CB and he said "Lets Go". I sucked right in behind him and hung half way out on my drivers side so I could see in front of me and the truck and we rode like that all the way to Palm Springs. Offered him a sandwich and a coke.
Trucks follow other trucks. Its called riding in the rocking chair. I usually wait for a speeder to run the front door and follow behind so he gets the ticket. When he turns off I wait for another one and then off we go. I always follow a trucks tail lights in heavy fog. I have spent my life trucking and you can follow me or even push me if you want, I really don't care, my responsibility mostly stops at my front bumper.
I'm going to LA Thursday for a couple weeks, I can take my coach air/heat belt off and get half a MPG more. Based on 2800 round trip miles I can gain about 40 gallons of fuel. Might as well leave it on for a lousy hundred bucks.... The gain in mileage for tailgating would be alot less than $100 and the risk would not be worth the gain.
When I used to drive professionally, the company policy was 4 seconds following distance. I still practice that today driving my bus or the hockey team's bus. I don't like tailgaters either. Some transport trucks do it to me even with the hockey bus, and I generally go the speed limit or 10% over. They would like to get by, but I ignore them.
JC
Quote from: gyrocrasher on February 09, 2009, 11:40:22 AM
Not to be argumentative, Jack, as you know I agree with your opinion on tailgating, but IIRC, fuel savings started showing at 2-300 feet? (still WAY too close) The savings went up dramatically as the distance decreased.
One might also note the segment in the same episode showing the damage caused by a blown trailer tire from the lead truck.
Mitch
I guess I should have said MAXIMUM fuel savings required the very close following distance. Jack
Yes, it works fine. Racing cars do it all the time.
However; (there's always a "however"), the extra cost of rebuilding the front of the bus, towing charges, your medical bills, paying "following too closely" fines and increased insurance bill probably will cost more than the fuel saving!!
I've seen numerous truckers do this, I considered it idiotic when I was driving truck. For some reason trucks of the same company seemed to do it more than others.
When someone did it to me I did just like TomC. I even do it in my car, I once got a guy down to 15 mph before he woke up and blasted on by me giving me a strange look! There is no doubt that some people latch onto a vehicle's rear and drift off into mental never-never land.
Drafting wasn't what caused the accident that claimed Dan McMurphy's legs, but the photo demonstrates rather well what happens when a bus impacts the back end of an 18 wheeler. Drafting in a lightweight race car with a full crash cage, 5 point harness and a fire suit is part of racing. Drafting while in the nose of a 30,000 - 50,000 pound bus with only a thin layer of metal and glass around you is ... (I'll leave it to your own choice of words.)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.busconversions.com%2Fart%2Ffront_end640.jpg&hash=f7b093d5553a613194b15492fbbfc975f12fb647)
"Yes, it works fine. Racing cars do it all the time."
In addition to what has already been mentioned another thing race car drivers have going for them is that they know the other driver and that driver's ability. As well as being able to see through the car they are drafting. Jack
You've GOT to be kidding me !!!!
After all the years on this and the BNO board, some of the posts still never cease to amaze me.
So.....if only 3 people would have posted an answer, and they all said "ya drafting in a bus will save lots of gas".....you'd go ahead and continue (notice "not start") to do it?
GEEEEEZZZZZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-deleted-
I say have at it.... If you want to rent Talladega and get a friend who owns an 18 wheeler and tailgate/draft him. Have at it.
But as long as you are going to take many other people's lives into your hands by doing it. Don't even bring it up on this board. And then to display a holier than thou attitude when you get scolded for suggesting it. Wow that is hypocrisy indeed!! As if you just can't figure out why people get "bent out of shape" when you ask whether a selfish, dangerous, illegal stunt is acceptable or not.
Your life is yours to do with as you please it's just too bad that there actually us meaningless "other" people in the world that get in your way.
Speaking of "bent out of shape" your bus will get there soon enough if you keep this up my friend.
I defended you a year ago when you were illegally taking used restaurant oil for your biodiesel, but you are way out of line even starting this dialogue. This is beginning to look like a pattern of "How can I break the law and get away with it" questions.
I went to the bathroom in a bag for a year and a half because of a young, know it all driver that thought the freeway was his racetrack.
The book you quote so freely at the botton of your posts explains quite clearly why what you are doing is wrong.
So, let me throw this in for the theorists among us. I think that if you drafted close enough, like 1 inch, and the bumpers were strong and aligned, then maybe you would survive a crash into the back of the truck. Of course, you would also push the truck into whatever he was stopping for.
I'm not going to try it so you guys let me know if it works.
Hey guys, the man asked a simple question. Please don't turn this into an attack on him or anyone else. Let's keep it civil!
Quote from: NJT 5573 on February 09, 2009, 11:54:34 AM
Trucks follow other trucks. Its called riding in the rocking chair.
It is also known as "the root cause of the 20-car pileup."
Quote
I usually wait for a speeder to run the front door and follow behind so he gets the ticket.
Actually, this doesn't work. Cops LOVE to get the second or third guy into court, not only for speeding but also for tailgating.
I once saw half a dozen CHP troopers all working a stretch of I-10 west of Blythe, and they were pulling over three and four trucks at a time.
Back in my stupid youth I took a motorcycle trip from San Fransisco to Fresno and back in one night (long story involving girls, don't ask)
Anyway, on the way over I drove normally and got 50mpg like I always did. For the return trip which started at 1am, I decided that (a) even though I was only 10' from the rear of the truck, on a long haul at that hour it didn't "seem" like there was much risk of a trucker slamming on his brakes, and (b) not much risk of a cop seeing me... so I drafted the entire way back.
150MPG !!! Firsthand truth.
I always thought it'd be a neat project to make a system in a car that launches a little cable with a supermagnet out to stick on a trucker's rear bumper, On the car end, that cable'd be on a spring-wound reel with a sensors that actuate the throttle or brakes depending on how much the cable winds up or is played out (and for that matter steering depending on it's angle) so you could just pull up close, launch the cable to stick it to the truck, drop back 10 feet, engage the system and pretty much automatically follow -and brake- very accurately with basically zero reaction time. These days it'd actually be technically easy to do!~ If you set the thing at 4-5 feet it'd look like you're being towed and you'd probably get away with it... until everyone started doing it...
Ok.....'nuff of that....
Yeah, motorcycles that's when I really got into drafting...bad weather and a big truck. get in tight on your bike and stay dry, also no cross winds back there once you pass through the turbulence. 150 mpg! Awesome, I never noticed the MPG but I really didn't care about mpg back then.
Boogiethecat maybe you are a little german? The germans developed a system 10-15 years ago to link up a line of cars one behind the other. Instant braking using sensors (radar and laser and stuff) . They were more interested in how a system like this would increase the capacity of the highway, basically you can X5 the capacity by having no following distance. As well you don't get the weird reverse braking waves that create so much of stop and go traffic in rush hour.
I personally would love it if I could get on the highway link in and just sit there enjoying the view, just keeping and eye out on some guages etc..
I had a friend who was following a truck to closely one night, he was having a problem staying awake. he was suddenly snapped back to a full and alert state by a loud noise to find his passenger side windshield with a big hole in it and a fifty pound peace of metal in the passenger seat. He says he doesn't tailgate anymore. The possible savings from drafting/tailgating are so small compaired to the possible loss of limbs, personal organs, loved ones or even your own head with a decapitation as your car submarines under the trailer of a truck. Guys I get P.O'ed when some idiot cuts in front of me and take my cushion of comfort away. I fell you have a right to do what you want and kill yourself, but when you take other peoples lives in your own hand you have gone to far. Everytime we get behind the wheel we take other peoples lives in our hands and I for one will not drive recklessly.
WVaNative
Two memories here folks;
Back in the 80's three A&W Trucking rigs out of Mt Airy, NC were on the way to California. They were nose to tail. The front one drove off a hill in TN..the other two followed right behind. No one hurt real bad. The safety director loved that one!
During one of the Tour du Pont bicycle races that started in Kernersville, NC and ended in Winston-Salem, NC...the Yugoslovian Race Team followed the team van back to Kernersville tucked right in behind it by inches...on Insterstate 40!!!!!!! Oh yeah...at just over 55MPH! I would not have beleived it had I not seen it myself!
Jack
Quote from: http://www2.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?k=47012&id=761498fb-7a79-4dba-8b52-dedbe87219bbThe driver of a bus that collided with a semi-truck early this morning near Edson died at the scene of the crash, RCMP say. Four people injured in the crash are being flown to Edmonton hospitals this afternoon ...
... RCMP Const. Dion Barry says it appears the bus rear-ended the truck, which was carrying a load of pipe. Road conditions were poor at the time of the accident. ...
... "We have one fatality, being the bus driver. He was the one who came into contact with the semi truck."
Boogie,
Did you ever notice that when riding a bike in cold weather on a multi-lane road that if you tucked in real close to the fuel tank area of a truck that it was a bunch warmer. It is behind the bow wake and sucked you right along too. At least you could see what was happening in front of the truck. Younger and much stupider days. ;D
Don 4107
Hey, look! We have all done stupid stuff. At least, and this is a near certainty, any that drove between the ages of 16 and 25. Near certainty. Recently I related my procedure for starting a diesel generator when I was in the Air Force. I sprayed either in the intake while cranking and continued after it started cause it quit if I didn't. It took a can or two till it stayed lit. A kind hearted Knut shared that "you are lucky to be alive". I guess it was that stupid a thing to do but I would have innocently repeated had it not been for that guy and I might have risked others in doing so. Remember that old saying that goes "there is no such thing as a stupid question"? Well, that saying is not to relieve the questioner of any embarrassment....it is to NOT DISCOURAGE open questions and maintain an atmosphere of "safety". Come down on somebody for sharing and he says Jack Squat after that and we all loose. I don't draft but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that there are some that read this thread and muttered under their breath "crap, I never saw anything wrong with that" and maybe a life was saved. If you guys had any idea of the unadulterated $#!% I have pulled in my misspent youth you would avoid me on the off chance that STUPID is contagious. Probably applies to most, I dare say. I share your propensity to JUDGE, really I do....but it such a VERY BIG commandment. Isn't there another that says that you should take this offending person aside and "whisper in his ear"? Constructive, always constructive.
Still luv ya,
John
Seemed to me it wasn't the question that was chastised, but rather the questioner's response to the passion some put into their answer.
There may be no dumb questions, but there is a definite possibility of dumb reactions to prudent answers. ::)
But, with advancing CRS all is forgotten, so there is nothing to forgive. Therefore we're all still friends . . . . right? ;D
Kyle,
Whaaat? Whoo? I don't follow? Gotcha!
John
ok, i apologize my response was a bit out of line.
I want you guys to hear me out on this, especially rick. First off, you are all filled with a great amount of information and wisdom, which is why i asked the question in the first place. Had i thought that my way was the right way, i would continue doing it and not ask...correct? Secondly, the reason to me asking the question is due to my high level of inexperience. i am 21 years old, and with the exception of starting last may when my band started touring, my driving was pretty much from one house to another, and not prolonged highway driving. SO, when we started touring i noticed every other trucker was tailgating each other. So that began to make me think if there was something more to this, and yes, i did not quite think of the consequences. If you see one car driving 90mph, thats speeding. You see 3 cars driving 90mph, thats racing. You see almost every car driving 90mph you begin to think that 90mph must be the speed limit. Thats the same mentality i had when i looked at truckers tailgating each other. Im not saying that was right of me, if anything it was foolish, im just explaining where i got my question from.
Secondly, i should have used better words than 'i try to do it as much as i can'.....that translates to about 10 minutes a day (still 10 minutes too much) but it came off as every time im on the road i do it. Again, not saying that 10 min a day is any better than 5 hours a day, but you get my point.
Rick, i apologize that you get the impression that i am trying to get away with as much as i can. Trust me, if i wanted to do that, i would be doing alot more than tailgating and taking trash oil. I am learning the same things alot of you guys learned decades ago. Which, again, is why i asked this question. Because i would rather take a lesson someone else learned rather than to learn it myself. I am not trying to 'get away' with anything. I just failed to realize the severity of what i was doing. And the book i quote at the bottom also explains why i quote it, because it mentions that we all make mistakes and that none of us are perfect. And i realize the ones that i have made.
I also have never seen pictures of bus vs 18 wheeler wrecks. Not going to lie....i kinda thought if anything were to happen it would be like a tank vs tank incident....not a tank vs paper mache (bus). I overestimated the safety of a bus.
So, i hope this clears everything up. If anybody still has hard feelings, i encourage that you message me privately, so we can work out our differences.
Personally, I am miffed that at 21 you have this much maturity and humility. I have always thought that humility was my long suit ::)
Well, Studely...I was happy you were asking questions and even more so that you weren't terminally offended by the apparent tone of some of the answers. I don't think the harshness was intended, really I don't. Except maybe mine :P ;D ;) This is a "flat" medium and it doesn't always come out nor be received as intended.
John
Ilya,
I must say that I am impressed! I have know others on this board, that would have gotten offended and left the board over such a little thing like this. I am impressed with your honesty and humility. Maybe if more people would read the book that you have on your tag line, more people would have better attitudes in this world.
God bless,
John
Quote from: JohnEd on February 10, 2009, 07:07:24 PM
Personally, I am miffed that at 21 you have this much maturity and humility.
I agree. Excellent demonstration of good character and attitude about learning.
Regarding the tank vs. paper mache comparison. The front end of the bus is very vulnerable to collision, the rest of it is very solid. The front end has 30,000-40,000 pounds worth of inertia containing mass behind it yet has a relatively minimal frame structure. And the only heavy framing the front usually has is just about the right height to slip under the truck's rear end, leaving everything above that extremely crushable.
I do believe that is by intent. Although I have said before that I wondered if it was intended to make the driver be more careful, I suspect it has to do with priorities. The front end is built to be a crush zone to consume the energy of impact to minimize the energy transmitted to the passengers. - Sacrifice the driver to save the passengers.
I often think it would be good to build a crash cage structure into the front end. But it would take quite and engineering feat I suppose.
Hmmm..... well, by asking questions you hopefully will learn things to do, or not to do, that may end up saving your life so that you can end up as old as some of us. God only knows why i am still alive after some of the things i have done or had done to me. ??? ;D
As was already mentioned, post do not always come across as intended. After spending 28 years as a paramedic on an emergency ambulance, I am probably a little lot more sensitive about driving issues involving the safety of everyone on the road. I saw so much unnecessary death and serious injury that was the result of carelessness, negligence and just plain bad driving habits.
I am impressed with our level of maturity for a 21 year old. I wish I had been that mature when I was 21. Fortunately, I had a good (busy) guardian angel watching over me. Jack
Kudos to iminaccess! Impressive! With that kind of thoughtfulness and open mindedness you should have an very rewarding life. Patrick.
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on February 10, 2009, 07:15:59 PM
The front end of the bus is very vulnerable to collision, the rest of it is very solid.
Here's a nice demonstration of that, taken from this morning's news - this is a relatively low-speed accident on a country road, yet just look at how far that tree has buried itself inside the bus:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsimg.bbc.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F45466000%2Fjpg%2F_45466295_coach_crash.jpg&hash=2f861b16ac0341fc9fcf40b586dcf72e7d238c78)
(Full news story here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7883133.stm)
This bus is a Plaxton too, which makes it worse!
Jeremy
First of all, I am moved by your honesty and willingness to admit that we are ALL imperfect. I agree wholeheartedly.
Having been in a car wreck when I was 17 in which my best friend was driving over the center line and a 17 year old boy from a neighboring city paid the ultimate price I have watched the 30 year conversation that my friend has had with himself everyday. Questions like "What was I thinking?" and "if I just wouldn't have...." to "if I could do it all over again" have repeated themselves for 30 years. I love kids (kids meaning 16 -22 years of age) and that love for them makes it difficult for me to not talk to them when I feel they may be heading down the road to the kind of conversations with themselves that my friend is gonna have the rest of his life. Whatever behavior it is racing, tailgating,
drunk driving, it's not worth it. I travel all over the states in our bus and speak to people about my accident which happened as a result of me stopping to help a drunk driver and getting hit by an uninsured driver who was drinking and cited for tailgating. I see the result at every stop when someone comes up and tells their story of wouldv'e could've should've's.
I saw it in Burke Virginia when a young girl came up to tell me that her three best friends had all bled to death while talking to her in a car while they waited for someone to come and help just three weeks before. She didn't think her decision to drink and drive was such a good idea at that point.
I did mean what I said about your life being yours. You are obviously free to choose your path, the hard part for me is when I see folks driving like they are trained, experienced race car drivers with three loaded car seats in the back. One person makes a choice for far more than themselves when they choose to do such thoughtless and selfish acts.
I never believed for one second that you struck me as a person who would knowingly endanger others lives and if I was too harsh in trying to keep you from having regretful "conversations" with yourself for the rest of your life than I am sorry and ask for your forgiveness. My intention was to keep you on the planet and therefore on this blog and also to keep you from a dangerous habit that has far reaching and unintended consequences for too many.
Sorry if I offended anyone else here as well... I guess I get the "speak the truth" part alot better then the "in love" part.
Rick
Truckers tailgating is not smart but..... there is a tremendous difference between a truck and a bus. In a truck, the driver is sitting on top of a ton of engine/transmission and 8 feet behind the front bumper. He is relatively safe in a collision. Consider how close your knees are to the bumper of a bus.
I'll bet if you watch closely, you won't see cabover trucks tailgating.
Most of our coaches are not constructed to provide crash protection.
The engineering is to get the box to retain shape and carry the load for an extended time in commercial service.
Any crash worthiness is just happenstance.
The box had to be stiff enough in the front so that the windshields don't fall out with the flexing, andthe door will close consistantly.
without government regs, our cars would be the same.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I like to see through the big windshields so I don't like to tail gate. also like to see as far down the road as i can. The otherside is I like to rubberneck and thats where I can get in trouble.
As far as being tailgated, i dont worry about it so much in the bus, however being Mech. Inject., it has an anti-tailgate feature that is quite effective :D. Kinda like an octopus ;D.
Quote from: NewbeeMC9 on February 12, 2009, 05:58:45 AM
As far as being tailgated, i dont worry about it so much in the bus, however being Mech. Inject., it has an anti-tailgate feature that is quite effective :D. Kinda like an octopus ;D.
;D
Brings to mind a cool idea for a bumper sticker:
If you can read this, your vehicle has now been rust proofed and tinted.
if you are ever getting tailgated in your car, and really want them to back off....try washing your windshield for about a minute straight. It does wonders :-)
Ilya, you're far more mature than many on the board ..... myself included - kudos to you - FWIW
Quote from: HighTechRedneck on February 12, 2009, 06:07:12 AM
Quote from: NewbeeMC9 on February 12, 2009, 05:58:45 AM
As far as being tailgated, i dont worry about it so much in the bus, however being Mech. Inject., it has an anti-tailgate feature that is quite effective :D. Kinda like an octopus ;D.
;D
Brings to mind a cool idea for a bumper sticker:
If you can read this, your vehicle has now been rust proofed and tinted.
Thread winner!