I'm doing a reconditioning of my 96A3 front suspension. I'm replacing the following parts:
- Air bags
- Radius rod bushings
- Air brake diaphrams
- Air lines to brake cans (the rubber part)
- over pressure protection valve on the air system (just rebuilding if I can get it apart)
- Front leveling valve
- Suspension air supply filter (type E)
- shock absorbers
I have the suspension almost all tore apart now. I have the two air bags on the passenger side left to remove. I only had one HARD nut to break loose on the radius rods. Everything else has come apart very easily with just hand tools.
Now comes the question: Is there any trick to getting the old radius rod bushings out of the radius rods? I'm planning to just use my sawsall and cut them in half in order to pop them out. Any other ideas? I remember struggling with removing them from the radius rods on the rear axle when I did them a number of years back.
Thanks in advance guys!
Brian,
I just sprayed mine with pb blaster and they pushed out by hand.
I had the pb blaster out while getting bolts loose.
It worked great on my 4104, front and back
John
Yes I used a good penetrating oil. While your in there have you checked the king pins? I changed mine out on the 4104. not to bad a job saved a bunch,got the parts and advice from Luke.Changed the bags front and rear, bearings front and rear,all bearings,all brake shoes,shocks Total cost $2000 ( not including king pins).
John
Brian
Howsa about some pictures? My radius rod bushings could use some new ones, I have a bunch on the shelf, it's getting the nerve to tackle it. The manual shows a very fancy tool for installation, I wonder if there is an alternative?
Thanks for the PB penetrating oil idea. I have some of that on hand and will give it a try.
Airbag, I'll try and get some pictures in the next couple of days. Really, the job is easy once the radius rod bushing bolts are loose. I purchased the polyurethane two piece bushings from Internation Bus Parts about 4 years back. I put them on the drive axle and have had no problems with them. The two part bushings really are easy since you don't need the special tool to put them in like you do with the one piece rubber bushings. I've heard reports some people think the polyurethane is too harsh, but I've had no problems with mine.
Good luck on your bushing replacement project!
My king pins? Well, the driver's side was just replaced about 3 years ago by C&J bus. The passenger side is in great condition. So, I think I good there! Thanks for the idea though.
Quote from: Brian Diehl on February 08, 2009, 07:51:54 PM
Thanks for the PB penetrating oil idea. I have some of that on hand and will give it a try.
Airbag, I'll try and get some pictures in the next couple of days. Really, the job is easy once the radius rod bushing bolts are loose. I purchased the polyurethane two piece bushings from Internation Bus Parts about 4 years back. I put them on the drive axle and have had no problems with them. The two part bushings really are easy since you don't need the special tool to put them in like you do with the one piece rubber bushings. I've heard reports some people think the polyurethane is too harsh, but I've had no problems with mine.
Good luck on your bushing replacement project!
My king pins? Well, the driver's side was just replaced about 3 years ago by C&J bus. The passenger side is in great condition. So, I think I good there! Thanks for the idea though.
I did not know about the urethane replacements, that's a great alternative. I am the original cheap screw so I will probably fab the tool or hunt for one used. I will look forward to your pictures that's a real meat and potatoes job. :)
Brian,
In the auto world, the urethane bushings were a bad idea. Only the hard core young racers installed those. It is true that they give a much harsher ride. That isn't the major drawback, though. The frame stuff that the bushing attaches to wasn't designed for this and the mounting points crack after time. At 60 mph down the freeway in rush hour, there is precious little in the way of major front end components that you can do without even briefly. I think control arms are on that list. I could tell that those things were breaking my little Z car and I removed them even before I heard about the frame mounting bracket failures.
I am sure the MCI is tougher that a Datsun but the theory holds.The way I have seen them do it is to heat the bushing/rod up with a torch till the rubber falls out....on fire of course. They then use the cutting torch to remove the bushing shell without damaging the rod. Waiting for the rod to cool took the longest.
HTH,
john
Brian, you must be a lot tougher than I am. I couldn't imagine doing heavy work on my bus in the winter even though it has been in the 30s the past few days.
The only thing I have done on my bus since October is to make sure the batteries are charged. Well I have also started the generator a time or two to exercise it.
Thanks for the info John. IBP has been selling these for years. I'm pretty confident with the resiliency of the suspension on my bus. I'm going to continue with the Polyurethane bushings.
Brian,
We have had the IBP polyurethane busings in our bus for about 8 years and 40,000 miles, no problems so far. We may feel road noise a tad more, but there is also a smidgeon less play in them. Overall, we are very pleased with them. Jack
Brian,
With Jack's testimonial and your confidence I would use them myself, at this point. They were a popular upgrade in cars because they made the steering more precise and responsive. Harsh ride and frame stress excluded, they were a serious plus. Most of the bus steering problems are associated with excess play and wander so anything you can do to reduce play is a serious move in the right direction. Thanks for the info.
John
Thanks Jack and John.
I am doing this now because I've been having problems with a pull to the passenger side getting worse and worse over time. I'm hoping this will get rid of the pull altogether. If not, I'll be bringing it to truck a-line in Blaine and see if they can help me get it back to neutral handling.
Jack, I thought I heard some time in the past that IBP changed their recommendations for putting grease on only the one side of the bushing to putting it on both sides of the bushing. Do you know or remember anything about this?
Just went out and used the PB blaster technique to remove the bushings. I actually just used my WD-40. I am amazed at how easily they came out of the rods. NICE! Sure beats the struggling I did over the rear bushings. I don't know why I didn't think to use WD-40 then. ???
Anyway, I also reread the instructions and it pointed out the drive axle should only have grease on the ID of the bushing. However, the front axle needs grease on both the ID and OD of the bushing and on the machined metal surfaces. So, that is what I'll do unless others have good reason to believe I shouldn't.
Urethane bushings are used on most MCIs. Mine has all urethane. Howeve, I have no idea whether the ride quality is compromised?
Brian, I know you have the bushings out...but I've read somewhere that if the radius rods have wear marks or are knicked, that they should be tossed? Anyone?
Did you replace your kingpins? I don't have any obvious kingpin looseness, but my bus doesn't exactly drive like a slot car. Always thought it could be improved...if I throw enough bucks at it.
Shocks, airbags, draglink, and bushings are all new or only a few years old. Kingpins and steering box are all that's left. I'd like to improve the steering. I got to pay attention or it'll move around in the road quite a bit. It's a sorta on-the-wheel-experience. Not too bad on interstates. But the backroads are tedious. I spend a lot of time on little roads doing bluegrass festivals.
Like Airbag says, pictures would be appreciated. Also like to know if the bushings improve your handling? Have you replaced your steering box?
One last question? What repair made the most improvement in your steering quality?
Thanks, JR
Well, today was a very productive day.
I have all the radius rods back on the bus. I had to jack the axle around in order to get the rods all lined up correctly again. So, I think I'm on the right track to getting the alignment issue solved. I forgot to put the axle at the correct ride height before tightening down the inside radius rods. So, when I remember to put the axle at the correct ride height I had to loosen and then re-tighten the bolts. At least I remembered before having them ALL tightened down!
I got the rebuilt pressure relief valve on and the front leveling valve on as well.
I was able to remove the last of the air bags and only need to cut off two nuts in total! I'm really happy with how easily they all came apart. I have one new air bag back on and ready to go.
I got the brake diaphrams replaced as well. Boy, the passenger side one hanging together by a thread (or two!) only. The brake lines were not much better either. Those will be replaced before it all goes back together.
I'm hoping to have time to get another bag or two on tomorrow afternoon. Hopefully one more weekend of work and I'll have it on the road again!
Some pictures
more pictures
yet more again
and even more
last set of pictures
I must say, it would have been almost impossible with the tools I have to get the inside radius rods off without having had removed the air bags. The rubber was literally adhered to the mounting stud and to the rods. I was able to pry off the rods using a pry bar, but couldn't have done it with the air bags in the way.
... and just so the most observant of you don't have to warn me ... the lock over tabs are not down yet on the radius rod bolts because I still have to do the final torque down. I have to buy a torque wrench yet to get me up to 150 - 165 ft/lbs of torque. Once the final torque down is done I'll bend down the locking tabs.
Looks good Brian!
I'll bet you will feel real glad when you're done and it all checks out.
Stay Warm,
Paul
That's great stuff Brian it gives us do it yourselfers hope that such jobs are doable.
Brian,
Great pics and a really neat job. I WISH!!!!
Hey, I took a drive shaft into a drive line shop to have new u-joints installed. I do that stuff myself but I was going thru 1 set a month and it was getting old. Turned out it was the brand of u-joint I was using. They were Korean when they were just getting started and their roller bearings were not "hardened". The shop knew all about it and told me Spicer would solve my problems for years. OK, go with the repair! Guy came back out and said he might have bad news. Took me to the shop and demonstrated that the "holes" in my drive shaft were worn to the point where the u-joint cup just barely wobbled in there. He told me he would try a trick but wanted me to know what he was doing so the scorch marks didn't alarm me. He heated one of the lobes on the drive shaft end up cherry red with a rather large torch. After letting it slow cool he again tried to fit the u-joint cup back in the hole. It was again a hard PUSH/DRIFT FIT. Heating steel up cherry red and letting it slow cool will shrink the hole. He did that to 3 out of 4 on my shaft and the couplings. Magic and saved me the price of an entire drive line. I noticed someone here said that if the hole was too big you had to replace the radius rod and I thought this old timer's trick might be use full some time to someone. "Shrinking the hole" only works once....I was told. OOOOOO! Don't ya luv it when we talk dirty?
John
Hey, John, I wish I'd known about the procedure you described about 5 years ago. I had to replace my drive line due to the exact issues you described. That was a $900 "fix". Then, I had to replace it again year before last since my ISM/Eaton was too long for the drive shaft. Ugh! Talk about unpleasant. Oh well, it always seems like we learn of these tricks after we needed them!
Brian,
I not long ago used info that I overheard one night in the back of my 10 year old friends car. It was a conversation he was having with his father. 50 years after the fact it was useful. I think everything you learn is useful and I have found the darnedest uses for trivial tidbits all my life, not to mention all the tech classes and college and high school. Sorry I didn't get there in time for you but you will use it again someday for yourself or another.
Your ISM/EATON re-power is the hottest setup I have ever heard of that seemed affordable. Really, a master stroke and you earned it with your efforts. Unbelievable that you could enjoy the added benefit of having your wife help. What a trip! My 5 foot tall MS degreed quintessential research librarian Wife shared with me last night that she pulled the 6 cylinder engine on a 49 Dodge shortly after she got married the first time. When she got it all uncoupled, her husband came in with a hoist and set in a truck to go to the re-builder. Weeks later she put it back in. She weighed less that 100 pounds wet. The things you learn about people.
Thanks,
John
Thanks John. Yes, having my best friend involved makes the journey so much better!
Yes, I've really enjoyed the repower. I know there are things that could have been done different, but it is running awesome and working great for me.
WHAT!!?? you didn't chrome them while you had them out??? :D
thanks for the great picks, I am gonna have to tackle airbags one day so it was nice to see it in progress.
Yeah, I had considered having them powder coated! Alas, I am too cheap. :-\
Hi Brian; so it wasn't too bad huh? I've got my bus in the shop right now and I'm about to do the same thing so this has been very enlightening. Do you do one radius arm at a time so the axle doesn't go moving about? I have also replaced king pins so once i get this done, i'm taking it to get the front end aligned. I'm not so sure about the bushings. I'm still thinking of using the OEM ones? (What would JD say?)
FRED
Thank you Brian for the photos.
It speak for many words to help others to what it involve.
Its great!
Very good job.
Sojourn for Christ, Gerald
Fred,
I have only had kings replaced on one veh. in my life. They had to drift in new bushings and then they reamed the bushings out to "fit" the kings. Did you have to ream anything out? I guess the holes where the bushings fit aren't exactly lined up so reaming gets it all acting right....don't know tho.
My right wheel had a point where it sorta jammed and was hard to rotate through the steering axis. It was only felt when the weight of the veh was on the wheel and the wheel was resting on a ballbearinged plate and the tie rod was disconnected. The tech grabbed the wheel with both hands and it moved freely till it got to "that spot". "That spot" was near the "straight ahead" spot so the veh would not return to center and had to be "driven" every second. Fatiguing! Curious about your experience cause I think Kings are a really popular culprit in steering "wander" and I have heard very little mention of them. How did you determine they were bad?
Thanks,
John
Hi Fred,
No, the job really is not hard. You will be able to do it no problem. Jack it up, block the body, and start tearing it apart. You'll be amazed at how quickly the job will go.
Give me a call if you want to discuss anything in depth.
John,
I bought the bus from some nice folks in Oregon who converted it. After driving it a few thousand miles to Minnesota, I took it to a local truck shop and had it DOT'd. They told me it needed king pins and tie rod ends. Which I totally believed because of the way it steered and I've driven plenty of worn out old trucks and the bus ranked right up there with the worst.
Now it steers consistently, but i never had it aligned. I've put about 12,000 miles on it since then and it just dawned on me that it still needs to be aligned. So it has the characteristic MC-5 wander, but its not scary to drive like before.
So I just trusted the guys at Gary's Diesel in a nearby town and I'm pretty sure they were right. I don't know anything more about the replacement process other than to say that the mechanics told me it was a bugger getting the old ones out.
Fred
I changed my king pins and bushings out on my 4104, yes it was a challenge, does anyone know it they are the same or similar on the MCI 9?
John
Well, today was the big "try it out" day. I got the front end back together yesterday around 4pm and the ride height adjusted correctly. When I woke up this morning the front was still aired up and riding exactly where it was supposed to. So, the new bags are holding air even in 0 degree weather. Today we went out for a drive. I was pleased when she fired right up and came back to life. What a great feeling to have the motor running after 3 1/2 months of just sitting there. I cranked it with the ignition off to get oil pressure before turning on the ignition. Better to build up oil pressure under the load of the starter only.
Okay, I can see a little rambling there, so back to the topic! Driving impressions are very positive. The ride does not feel any harsher than it did before. In fact, I think it feels better. This is probably due to the amount of wear the old bushings had. The new shock absorbers also helped to take a little bit of the up and down out of the bumps as well. I can't say for sure due to the winds today, but I would say most if not all of the pull is gone now. It was a lot less work to keep it going down the road straight. :)
Three weekends of work and it drives like a new bus! I'm glad I did the job and only wish I'd done this a couple of years ago.
It was awesome to be going down the road. We all wanted to keep on going and not turn around for home. I'm pleased everything worked great and wish I was writing this from "somewhere down the road" instead of at home. ;D