I'm about ready to add a hitch to my 4106. My trailer is 10,000# with a tongue weight of approx 700#.
Does anyone sell hitches for this bus?
Does anyone know of any companies that can make one?
Does anyone have one they want to sell?
I have the means to cut and weld, but I would like to save the time and effort of fabricating one if possible.
Has anyone out there made a hitch for the 4106 (or the like), and would you like to suggest were I attach the hitch to?
Thanks!
Mark
I'm staying out of this one!
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Mark, I have a reciver on my bus. I look in the morning and se what it is mounted to
Tucson
BLASPHEMY!
This subject is not to be discussed, ever.
10,000 lbs, AAAAAAAHHHHHH
Boy are you in alot of trouble. Just wait until the Bus Police get ahold this post. I'd sure hate to be in your shoes.
Your roof shall certainly cave in, perhaps pulling the whole sky in with it.
It won't be as bad on this board, but they stoned a guy over on BNO just for bringing it up.Your only hope is that the wacky guys will step in with pictures of tougue weight reducing contraptions. That is the only thing that seems to calm down the people that you have offended.
Well circle the GMC's boys. Let's get it figured out. My hitch isn't going to work out for me, so I am with you . But they aren't going to like it.
Wait a minute, let me get my Helmet!....... Okay. Now my nomex racing suit, nomex socks and glove liners. Let me arm the aqueaous foam fire supression system, "click", now only press the big red button if it appears that this thread is going down in flames!!
Okay, here are the facts. My trailer with tools, spare tires, fuel and the car is a little under 8000. Trailer is rated for 10,000. Tongue weight can vary between 500 and 800, depending on placement of the car (rear engine car that I can pull straight in the trailer or back in for more tongue weight). I can run less tongue weight due to the size of the bus.
I'm just asking for the experience of the members of this board before I set forth in making my own hitch. I have seen other GM coach pulling trailers of all sizes, even larger than mine.
Okay, now let me put my 6 point harness on... click, click, click click. done. Okay, I'm ready!
Please feel free to pmail me if you do not want your name associated with this thread ;).
Mark
I'm not scared.
Hey, Dallas, You can come out from behind the water barrel now. I have taken the liberty to arrange for some other bus nuts to post decoy posts:
"How do I put a slide in my gmc"
"How do I make my Bus haul @$# up really big hills"
"Can I use my 17 year old retreads for steer tires"
"Can I use 4 AA Duracells for start batteries"
These will be placed on the apppropriate boards at strategic times to give us some room to get this hammered out. As a absolute last resort we have the mother or all abrasive posts that I have been saving for just such an occasion. This will be posted only if needed to save one of our lives. It is so volatile that I dare not even think of it unless the nuclear option is needed.
I have seen some that have distributed the weight through the Aluminum structure and some that have attached to the axle mouting positions. Engine is a big no no but not as bad as a bumper hitch, which is what my coach came with.
What kind of racing do you do? I there a chance that in a few years you will be heavier or were you scared to put the real weight down?
Phil,
Your better than a 12 step program.
I feel that I can confess, I built a hitch for towing my Jeep CJ7 4 down yesterday. ;)
Even though I used the general setup that I saw others using for years(there just lucky) and beefed it up a little to be safe. :P
But, if you see a Jeep with an 8V71 attached to the front on the side of the road, it isnt me ;D
Of course my setup in NO way would/or should be used for a heavy trailer.(unless you want to turn the back of the bus into a rumble seat) :o
Cliff
The major race I due is Cannonball Run, which is now commonly known as the One Lap of America. It's 24 hrs a day for 8 days. You race on the track during the day for points, and you and your co-driver drive the car overnight to the next track. Sometimes the next track is 1350 miles away! We'll cover 4500 to 6500 in one week. See the following link: http://www.onelapofamerica.com/. That's us at the top of the page in the silver 911. It's not a race for the faint of heart. Our car put's out 560 rwhp on pump gas all day long and has won the event three years in a row. We've beaten factory teams from Porsche, Dodge (Vipers), Hennessey (Vipers), Ford (the new GT500 Shelby), andNoble.
The rest of the year we go around the east coast testing our setup for next year's race. The idea behind the bus was to tow the trailer and stay in the bus at the track. It would also make it much more "family friendly" to have all the comforts of home right there with us!
That being said, you could think of the hitch as being a family bonding tool!
Any thought on using the radius arm pick up points for the rear axle to attach a frame to?
Well I ain't got no experience with a Jimmy so I really can't give ya much usefull advice. BUT I'm sure if ya brought it to the "TN Fall Bus Bash" at Knuckle's we could all get under it in the PIT and put all our heads together an as Nick signs his posts" Get 'R Done!" LOL! Opps I know it ain't help'n ya but if ya neeed to take some heat off this thread we'll also start one saying come to the "TN Fall Bus Bash" and help us re-egnieer a GMC 4106 to Pull a 20,000# trailer! That should keep the bus police busy enough to get by on this subject an get some useable ideas! BK!
:) ;) :D ;D :o 8) ::) "TN FALL BUS BASH" is gonna be a BLAST! ::) 8) ;D :D ;) :)
Oh yeah sorry Onelapper, I wasn't try'n to Hi-jack yer thread! And I also realize it's a shameless way to plug the "TN Fall Bus Bash" at Knuckle's but I was really try'n to humoressly take some heat off your thread! BK
:) ;) :D ;D :o 8) ::) "TN FALL BUS BASH" is gonna be a BLAST! ::) 8) ;D :D ;) :)
Quote from: Dallas on June 24, 2006, 07:38:11 PM
I'm staying out of this one!
[/b]
Dallas I couldn't believe it when I first read it, I still can't beleive it, I don't believe it, and most of all I still won't believe it after it's done and over! Come now you know you can't refuse to get involved in a challenge such as this! LOL! BK
:) ;) :D ;D :o 8) ::) "TN FALL BUS BASH" is gonna be a BLAST! ::) 8) ;D :D ;) :)
Ok wec4104 has our backs covered. He gave 'em the old slider. That ought to keep 'em busy for a while. http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=1052.msg8463#msg8463
Does anybody have any pictures?\
One Lapper and Florida Cracker should serve as an inspiration to us all. We make a stand here
My name is Phil and I would like to be able to tow 10, 000+ punds with my Scenicruiser. There Ii've said it!
Come on Folirida Cracker, take it one step furhter and edit the disclaimers out of your post.
WE HAVE GMC'S AND WE TOW WITH THEM
Folks there has been tow hitches built for our GMC Coaches.
At one time the late Gary Dean at Deans Coach Repair was selling the plans for fabricating and installing a tow hitch on GMC intercity coaches.
You might email the folks at Coach info.
http://www.coachinfo.com/
And see if they offer the same plans for fabrication and installing the tow hich.
Just a thought on my part.
jlv
Phil,
I would like to edit my post, but I have to go to a meeting tonight for people who have done a roof raise on a GMC and havn't
had there bus split in two, YET!. ;D
I am only on step 1, so don't put any more pressure on ME.
This is just too stressful :P
Cliff
One Lapper and Florida Cracker should serve as an inspiration to us all. We make a stand here
My name is Phil and I would like to be able to tow 10, 000+ punds with my Scenicruiser. There Ii've said it!
WE HAVE GMC'S AND WE TOW WITH THEM
Quote
You guys are a riot! Who knew there were so many us in the closet with trailers to tow!?!
It appears that it is not a good idea to attach a reciever hitch to engine craddle for obvious reasons. The next appropriate looking area looks to be the iron brackets that the upper and lower radius arms attach to. Because of the distance from those bracket to the rear bumper were the hitch ball, I would think that it would be best to triangulate the structure.
Tomorrow I'll have the chance to get under the bus and take some pictures of the areas I'm talking about.
Tucson, how is your brake project going? Did you start at 4:30am? Too early for me! I'd appreciate some pictures of your hitch if you have the chance.
We can do this.
Mark
Does anyone have pics of Gary Deans set up, how about a discription?
I bet it's like One Lapper is describing.
OK, I'll jump in here and throw in my few pennies worth, maybe even a Susie B. . .
The problem with a heavy trailer and a bus is the stress it puts on the engine cradle, both horizontally and vertically. Ideally, then, the hitch receiver should be designed to relieve as much stress as possible off the cradle.
Daris Boutillier's 4106 has the type of hiitch OneLapper should consider, as it is tied into the rear axle radius rod mounts, thus relieving the engine bulkhead of the horizontal stress of towing:
http://www.thebouthilliers.com/4106/
From the home page > Conversion Articles > Exterior > Receiver Hitch
The vertical loads induced are a completely different matter, and the one area that brings out most of the flack. The engine cradle literally hangs from the roof at the back, with just the bolts holding everything in place. TTBOMK, no one's ever really done a thorough engineering study to see how much of a load can be put on these vertical hangers before they fail, so you're off in "no man's land" in that regard.
It's not so much the static load of 500 - 700 lbs that's in question, it's more the instanteous loads induced from normal highway undulations that causes the concern. Hit a bump, and suddenly that 500 lbs static jumps to 2500 dynamic, as an unscientific example. Because of this, there has been suggestions made recently (w/in the last couple of years, anyway), that those with heavy trailers seriously consider something like the Tuff-Tow to handle these sharp induced loads, helping to take the vertical stress off the engine hangers.
http://www.tufftow.com/index.html
So that's sort of the latest on hitches for your coach. Not something you can walk into a hitch outfit and pick up "off the shelf", but something that any competent hitch fabricator can easily put together for you. Just install one intelligently, and you shouldn't have any problems.
HTH, and enjoy Brock Yate's creative madness!!
OK, I'll jump too.
If you took a stock 4106 with an 8-71 and 4 speed and replaced it with an 8-92 and V-730, wouldn't you be adding about as much weigh as the trailer hitch?
I'm pretty sure such an engine upgrade has been done though I don't really have any idea of the weights involved. I just think our old GM's were so over built they can take most anything we can throw at them.
Len
Quote from: Len Silva on June 25, 2006, 02:33:20 PM
OK, I'll jump too.
If you took a stock 4106 with an 8-71 and 4 speed and replaced it with an 8-92 and V-730, wouldn't you be adding about as much weigh as the trailer hitch?
I'm pretty sure such an engine upgrade has been done though I don't really have any idea of the weights involved. I just think our old GM's were so over built they can take most anything we can throw at them.
Len
Len,
An 8V92 actually weighs 35 pounds less thanan 8V71. Thats according to http://www.adieselengine.com/new_page_1.htm
I'm not sure about the difference in a V730 and a Spicer 4speed, but it can't be that much different.
Good Luck!
The has to be a better way than the little wheel on the trailer tounge. Backing up would be a nightmare and I can't imagine that thing being reliable or trouble free. How do those weight distribution hitches work or what about the hitch with it's own little suspension setup, with out a wheel,to reduce shock load. If the hitch is trangulated to the radius rods mount that would take care of the lateral loading. It seems to me that toungue weight is the biggest stumbling block.
Russ,
You're absolutely correct. At static 500# tongue weight is much, much higher when bouncing down the road. I ran into this problem with my race car. I built an aluminum hitch frame with a 1" reciever tube bolted to it. The tongue weight of the trailer I use during our race was only 70#, no problem I figured. Wrong. It cracked. It wasn't until after the race did I call a good friend (he is literally a rocket scientist) and he calculated a dynamic load of over 400#! Because the suspension of the car is so stiff, I made a hitch that was capable of 1000#. I have the only 600 hp race car that can tow an Air Stream trailer (if I wanted to)!
I estimate that the appropriate hitch will have to be able to support 2500 to 3000#. This number may not need to be this high because of the air suspension and the amount of travel the rear axle has. I think that a hitch can be made to handle this type of dynamic load.
Mark
Whew!! been under there all morning,Last wheel work musta been done by some old oil-patch hands.Didn't know you could get wheel lugs that tight,got them brok after a trip to the Home-depot for 6 foot cheater pipe and a short brake to weld tools back together! Got the axles knocked loose, Now I gotta find out where to buy that diff. grease with the glitter in it cuz Dallas said I should change that stuff while I'm in there!!! Feels like I,m losing the left wheel bearings,so tomorrow I'll track those down( not smooth at all, tight spots) Grease is very metallic.Will tell you more of the tail of wo as the week progresses.
But enough about me. concerning your problem.. Took a look at my hitch,its held on by two big bolts(about 3/4 inch dia) about a foot inside the the bumper, bolted to a triangular plate built onto the bottom of the cradle (guessing here,what ever the structer is that holds the rear bumper), the triangle plate points rearward and the sides are formed by two weldment I beams going forward, dipping under the oil pan and attaching to the bottom of the bulkhead. really don't think it's built for a very heavy tongue weight, looks substantial enough for tow bar work though. If I were going to tow a trailer I think it would have to be a tandem where I could control the tongue weight..
Took some pictures,will get them out of the camera tonight and put them in the mail to you!!!
Tucson
P.S. noticed in your pictures your brake linings have the standard through bolt set up that uses a countersunk flat head screw with nut and lock washer. The blocks they sent me are bonded and use a fine thread half inch bolt from the inside of the shoe,no bolt hole visible from the top. Know any thing about this? Other than that they look the same..?? ???
Took some pictures,will get them out of the camera tonight and put them in the mail to you!!!
Tucson
P.S. noticed in your pictures your brake linings have the standard through bolt set up that uses a countersunk flat head screw with nut and lock washer. The blocks they sent me are bonded and use a fine thread half inch bolt from the inside of the shoe,no bolt hole visible from the top. Know any thing about this? Other than that they look the same..?? ???
Quote
Tucson,
TIA for the pictures, but I agree that for my goal I'm going to have to anchor to the raduis arm brackets. I'd still like to see what you have, though.
As for the shoes I imagine there is little to no difference other than you won't need to buy the brass slotted bolts!
BTW, I used about 3/4 lbs of high pressure axle grease per side. Nothing fancy, Valvoline brand I recall.
Mark
This is a thread I have been watching closely. My 4106 has a receiver attached to the engine cradle and the previous owner towed a Jeep Cherokee. I need to tow a full size Suburban which GVW is above 7000lbs. From what I am reading here, it seems to me that I might need to beef things up underneath. Can anyone post some pictures or plans? If I tow four down, will the existing hitch be adequate?....Thanks
Here's how one person did it.
http://www.thebouthilliers.com/4106/
tg
Quote from: phil4501 on June 25, 2006, 03:59:02 PM
The has to be a better way than the little wheel on the trailer tounge. Backing up would be a nightmare and I can't imagine that thing being reliable or trouble free. How do those weight distribution hitches work or what about the hitch with it's own little suspension setup, with out a wheel,to reduce shock load. If the hitch is trangulated to the radius rods mount that would take care of the lateral loading. It seems to me that toungue weight is the biggest stumbling block.
You're right, Phil - tongue loading is the stumbling block for hauling heavy trailers. Not so much an issue for 4-down toads - they have to deal with the lateral loads.
Tuff-Tow has been on the market over 10 years now. . . that has to account for something. And, if you look at the FAQs, they address the backing issue.
There's another unit out there that's different, called "The Hitch Buddy", that might also be an option for you or Mark:
http://www.hitch-buddy.com/Hitch.htm
Quote from: Barn Owl on June 25, 2006, 08:17:58 PM
This is a thread I have been watching closely. My 4106 has a receiver attached to the engine cradle and the previous owner towed a Jeep Cherokee. I need to tow a full size Suburban which GVW is above 7000lbs. From what I am reading here, it seems to me that I might need to beef things up underneath. Can anyone post some pictures or plans? If I tow four down, will the existing hitch be adequate?....Thanks
Take a look at Daris Boutillier's pics, both TG and I posted the link to his page. If you're pulling on just the cradle, you're pulling on just the lower motor mounts at the bottom of the engine bulkhead - suggest you inspect the bulkhead and the motor mounts closely for wear and/or cracking.
Quote from: OneLapper on June 25, 2006, 04:49:53 PM
I estimate that the appropriate hitch will have to be able to support 2500 to 3000#. This number may not need to be this high because of the air suspension and the amount of travel the rear axle has. I think that a hitch can be made to handle this type of dynamic load.
Mark -
Thanks for the kind words, they're appreciated. IMHO, I don't think the suspension travel of the coach is as big an issue, compared to the movement of the trailer. I know when I hook my utility trailer to my pickup, I can feel it buckin' 'n kickin' around back there, transferring it's motion back to the truck. That, to me anyway, is the issue related to tongue weight and the forces induced.
Check out that Hitch Buddy mentioned above, it might be more suitable for you than a Tuff-Tow.
NOTE: All of the above primarily pertains to GMC coaches, altho there are corresponding issues with MCIs, Eagles, Prevosts, etc.HTH y'all. . .
OneLapper: I will try to give you a more serious answer. There is no problem pulling from somewhere on the rear axle, other than HP, clutch and high first gear. The problem is hitch weight. You should be running with 800 - 1000 pounds on the hitch. This is more weight than most people consider safe. The rear wall of a 4106 supports the back of the engine through the skin and tubular framing to the roof. Thus the reason for the comments about the rear of the bus falling off.
All the weight behind the axle is hanging on the rear bulkhead and the rear skin. The first 4106 buses had to have the bulkhead reiinforced as a retrofit so it is marginal at best. Pulling a car or 4 wheel trailer, from a point on the rear axle, puts minimum downward force on the rear. Although there are people who have pulled heavy trailers behind GM buses, not many people would willingly give you a design to work from.
I don't understand why one couldn't just distribute as much of the weight froward to the radius rod mounts as possible with one of those weight distribution hitches, then control the shock of the bouncing on the bumper end of the hitch. With a three axle trailer, and a reasonable amount of toungue weight, it just doesn't seem that bad.
Mark- I realize you already have the 4106, but maybe you should consider using one of the mid engine framed buses like the Crown or Gillig since you can use the NTC350 or even NTC400 Cummins with a Allison 740. With the 40ft, most had tandem drive rears, and then you could use the ever so cool looking Michelin X-one super single drive tires. The 455/55R-22.5 is equal to the 11R22.5. The 35ft version would have the same interior space as your 4106. Look at the classified ads in this site, there is a raised roof Crown that Red Skelton used that looks really nice. If that had been available, I might have bought that instead. Then also with a truck framed bus like the Crown, it wouldn't be much trouble to build in 3 or 4 sliders. Even making a roof top observation platform isn't a problem either since the Crowns roof bows were made to be roll cages. Just a thought-probably will be shot by the GMC nuts. Good Luck, TomC
Edit: Tom, Gilligs and Crowns are very nice. I like the looks of the Tandem Crown alot.
Tom - The only thing about the Crown and Gillig skoolies is that those massive frame rails end just behind the back axle - unless it's a pusher model. The mid-ship models have a huge trunk in the back, with virtually no support other than the exterior skin.
OTOH, the Gillig Phantom transit model
DOES have massive frame rails that run from bumper to bumper.
HTH, y'all. . .
Quote from: TomC on June 26, 2006, 08:40:32 AM
Mark- I realize you already have the 4106, but maybe you should consider using one of the mid engine framed buses like the Crown or Gillig since you can use the NTC350 or even NTC400 Cummins with a Allison 740. With the 40ft, most had tandem drive rears, and then you could use the ever so cool looking Michelin X-one super single drive tires. The 455/55R-22.5 is equal to the 11R22.5. The 35ft version would have the same interior space as your 4106. Look at the classified ads in this site, there is a raised roof Crown that Red Skelton used that looks really nice. If that had been available, I might have bought that instead. Then also with a truck framed bus like the Crown, it wouldn't be much trouble to build in 3 or 4 sliders. Even making a roof top observation platform isn't a problem either since the Crowns roof bows were made to be roll cages. Just a thought-probably will be shot by the GMC nuts. Good Luck, TomC
Wouldn't you know it. My first post here and I'm jumping into what appears to be a real hot issue.
I am 3000 miles from home about to pick up a 40' 1982 RTS II while on a vacation to the Northwest. I am meeting with a hitch shop in a few days to discuss them putting a hitch on it. I didn't expect a htch to be such a issue and it is critical to get my other vehicle home.
I presume these same concerns would apply to this bus since it is also GMC and uses a horizontally mounted engine.. Can anyone confirm that? Anybody have any experience (that they would be willing to share) with putting a hitch on a RTS?
I don't need it for a heavy trailer but rather to pull a 2700# toad on a 500# tow dolly. Would these same concerns be an issue with that load? The tow dolly is rated as 200# tongue weight but as others have said the road shock will multiply that many times over.
HighTech -
Your presumptions are correct.
Geoff or Pete should jump in here soon, as both have RTS coaches, and have addressed this issue with theirs. . .
Geoff?
Pete??
Your comments, please. ;D
TomC, if it wasn't for the fact that I love the looks of 4106, I'd agree that another bus would serve me better.
As soon as I get back to the office I'll post some pictures of the brackets that I want to attach a hitch frame to. I have to finish the muffler experiece first and wait a week or so for my hand to heal. Gave myself a pretty good cut with my favorite tool; Leatherman Ti Edition! LOL!
Mark
Ah...progress. Your posting of pictures will be much appreciated.
Quote from: OneLapper on June 27, 2006, 09:30:53 AM
. . . if it wasn't for the fact that I love the looks of 4106, I'd agree that another bus would serve me better.
Mark
Hey Mark - whats the VIN on your 4106?
Quote from: phil4501 on June 27, 2006, 01:29:01 PM
Ah...progress. Your posting of pictures will be much appreciated.
Here we go!
Russ, the VIN is 2853. From what I know about it it's lived it's life in New England at Kelley Bus in Torrington, CT. Maybe someone else can find out more about it, though.
Mark
And more pictures.
Okay, this lower frame member seems to be the largest/beefyest in the bus. This part of the frame is the rear, lower radius arm pivot that runs back to the bulkhead. The lower engine cradle bolts through the bulkhead to this frame.
Follow this if you can (I'm not savy enough to make a drawing and post it yet, WAIT, I'll take a picture of a drawing)! How about reinforcing the two lower frame members (pictured here) and the upper rear radius arm pivot brakets (pictured in previous post)? Create a square reinforcement frame and triangulate the inside of the square frame. That would be very strong. Now we take an 4" I-beam of metal and attach it to the large frame members directly on the axle side of the bulkhead. The I-beam and the newly constructed reinforcement "square" frame are about three feet apart, parallel to each other. These are the main two supports to attach a frame similiar, but heavier, than Boutiller's setup. I'll have some engineering buddies (automotive engineers, too boot!) calculate the guage of the metal based on the max trailer weight and 1000# tongue weight.
I'll make some drawings tomorrow (time permitting, big meeting at 3pm to get ready for) and try to get pictures taken, resized and posted by the evening.
Fire away, people! The more input, the better the product. To a degree. LOL!
Mark
I guess it is time for me to get of my @$# and figure out how to post some pictures on here too. I read up on the weight distrubution hitches and they are not even close to what I thought they were. You seem to be on the right track as far as mounting points. How do you intend to support the tail end where the hitch slides in, under the bumper? If I misunderstood your post, I am sure the drawings will clear it up. Again, I will post some pics of my present setup as soon as I figure out how.
Phil Zisakis
I will work on the drawings in the morning. I didn't have time to work on it today.
I did, however, talk to my rocket scienctist pal and asked him a few questions. Bobbing up and down while travelling down the road will generate about 1g of addition downward force. So if the trailer has a tongue weight of 700# static, that will easily reach 1400# dynamic on the tow hitch frame while travelling. Now, this does not take into effect a large, sharp jolt to the suspension such as a bridge or pothole. This will increase the dynamic load, but it's unclear as to how much. In the case of my trailer toting race car, the dynamic load was very high because the car is light and the suspension is very stiff. The coach is just the oppisite. The coach as a very high mass (thus it take more energy to upset it's intended direction and plane of travel) and the suspension is very supple (four marshmello like air bags and shocks that have very little compression dampening).
My I-Beam idea sounds like it'll work, but it'll have to be canterlevered much more that I thought. Example: take a 5 foot i-beam and put a pivot underneath it at the four foot mark. If you apply a 1000# down force to the long end of the i-beam, the force acting upward on the end of the oppisite end of the beam is 4000#. So, the longer the canterlever, the low the mulitiplication factor. This actually make the design of the hitch a bit more simple, thus, less expensive. There should be enough room to make this I-Beam work. It will, how ever, need to be "bent" to follow the upward contour of the underside of the engine to tuck up underneath the rear bumper.
I still think I'll need to use the popular weight distribution bars just to help remove some of the tongue weight.
More on this tomorrow.
Mark
Hi Guys,
My $.02 -
Onelapper, don't for get that the load on the pivot in your example would be 5000#. Your example is exactly why it is so difficult to safely & reliably pull a heavy trailer with a bus. The distance from the ball to the frame is so long that the forces are multiplied.
Another thing you experienced is fatigue failure of aluminium. Aluminium has no fatigue endurance limit like steel & will eventually crack. That is part of the reason why these busses were "over built" to start with.
Are they still overbuilt after 30+ years of use & abuse from the owners, operators, passangers, & the elements? Only regular careful close inspections of the structure will tell. After all, that is what greyhound did & that is how they determined what needed reinforcing and when & how.
Sure you can pull a heavy (10,000+ lb) trailer. The next questions are;
for how long until problems arise?
at what cost?
how much reinforcing & where?
What kind of problems to expect? - small cracks? or engine falling out?
In the design of any complex structure, the material selection always involves compromise as each has its good & bad.
You are wise to approach this carefully & thoughtfully.
Good luck
Now is the time to look at an Eagle! LOL
Richard
Quote from: kyle4501 on June 29, 2006, 06:33:42 AM
Hi Guys,
My $.02 -
Onelapper, don't for get that the load on the pivot in your example would be 5000#. Your example is exactly why it is so difficult to safely & reliably pull a heavy trailer with a bus. The distance from the ball to the frame is so long that the forces are multiplied.
Another thing you experienced is fatigue failure of aluminium. Aluminium has no fatigue endurance limit like steel & will eventually crack. That is part of the reason why these busses were "over built" to start with.
Are they still overbuilt after 30+ years of use & abuse from the owners, operators, passangers, & the elements? Only regular careful close inspections of the structure will tell. After all, that is what greyhound did & that is how they determined what needed reinforcing and when & how.
Sure you can pull a heavy (10,000+ lb) trailer. The next questions are;
for how long until problems arise?
at what cost?
how much reinforcing & where?
What kind of problems to expect? - small cracks? or engine falling out?
In the design of any complex structure, the material selection always involves compromise as each has its good & bad.
You are wise to approach this carefully & thoughtfully.
Good luck
RE: Now is the time to look at an Eagle! LOL Richard
Hey Richard, Why do I want to look at more rust? ;D
BTW (If I remember corectly) the picture I saw of a bus on the side of the road after its DD fell out in the traffic lane was an Eagle.
They ALL have issues, each with its own merits/ demerits. That's why they made so many different ones.
kyle4501
Didn't have any rust problem on mine! And with a full frame it is really no problem to put a hitch on it. LOL
Richard
Quote from: kyle4501 on June 29, 2006, 07:25:54 AM
RE: Now is the time to look at an Eagle! LOL Richard
Hey Richard, Why do I want to look at more rust? ;D
They ALL have issues, each with its own merits/ demerits. That's why they made so many different ones.
kyle4501
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on June 29, 2006, 07:28:01 AM
Didn't have any rust problem on mine! And with a full frame it is really no problem to put a hitch on it. LOL
Richard
And you knew this because you did the careful inspections & knew your equipment. You did not take that for granted.
Eagles make great coaches, almost as good as GMC's :)
kyle4501
Yea Kyle!
Richard
Quote from: kyle4501 on June 29, 2006, 07:35:19 AM
Eagles make great coaches, almost as good as GMC's :)
kyle4501
Hmmmmm. . .
Quote from: OneLapper on June 28, 2006, 08:06:21 PM
My I-Beam idea sounds like it'll work, but it'll have to be canterlevered much more that I thought.
I still think I'll need to use the popular weight distribution bars just to help remove some of the tongue weight.
Mark -
Called a fellow 4106 owner this week about his towing experiences. He's one of these vagabond individuals who works the local small town festivals and carnivals up and down the west coast, providing bounce houses and similar playthings. He's been towing a three-axle, twenty-eight foot boxed cargo trailer w/ all the amusements packed inside along with a Honda Civic runabout, for over 10 years, so I felt his observations were worth including on this thread.
He told me he went thru three 4106s with this trailer, two of which had a "life-ending" chassis failure. First one had the engine bulkhead pull away from the supporting structure ahead of it, causing a huge buckle in the roof and breaking both of the rear side windows. That coach only had a hitch attached underneath the rear bumper to the cradle. Second coach developed leaks in the roof thru the rivets where the engine hanger stringers attach, as well as a cracked engine bulkhead. Third coach "died" when a set of duals came off an 18-wheeler, bounced across the median and came thru the passenger-side windshield - fortunately Mama was taking a nap in the bedroom at the time, or she'd have been killed. The trucking company's insurance bought them their current rig, which is one of those RV units built on a Class 8 Peterbilt chassis. Says he really misses the '06s, but that this suits his towing needs much better. His trailer, btw, has a Tuff-Tow unit on it - he said he added it after the second '06 died, and, altho it's not really needed w/ the Peterbilt, it did make a difference when used behind the third '06, one that could be felt up front.
Maybe the $2K cost of a Tuff-Tow or Hitch Buddy would be worth the investment?? Your coach, your call. . .
FWIW & HTH. . .
Russ, after all of this work on designing and installing a hitch, we might find that we still have to use some type of tongue weight distribution setup. I'm going attempt to build a stout hitch that attaches to the most appropriate structure on the bus. After that is done, we'll determine if we need to go the extra mile and install one of the products that you suggested.
BTW, do you know how much your friends trialer weighed? Tongue weight? Do you know him well enough to ask if I can call him?
Thanks,
Mark
Mark -
IIRC, he said it was about 11K loaded. Packs some playstuff in the front, the car in the middle over the axles, and more playstuff in the rear. Ramp door on the back, side doors on both sides, street side one is located so you can get out of the car.
Oh, btw, the last two '06s had V-730s put in them - he burned up too many clutches in the first coach.
He's working a big festival in OR this holiday weekend, but I'll try to get thru to him again and see if you can call.
It may not be pertinent, but we towed an 18' flatbed trailer from ND to NC with our TDH3610. The only problem we found at the time was the hitch on the trailer broke in Knoxville. Of course we had well over 8K on the trailer with our 11' cabover camper and all our belongings.
Now the bad part
Once we got to NC and emptied the bus out we found a BIG hump on the floor just aft of the differential. It turned out that the tongue weight was so much that when the dynamic load hit the frame it caused the bulkhead to buckle and forced the cross members up. This wasn't a happy thing.
The long and short is, figure out how much you really have to have hanging off the back end and see what you can put in the coach itself, one way or another. The poor old bus wasn't really built as a tow vehicle, althougth, as soon as I get time, I'll figure out a way to pull at least 6K with my 4103!
Dallas
Okay, Dallas. Everyone has been been very helpful during the fact finding part of this tow hitch project, but the fact of the matter is other people have tried and failed to pull less weight than I'm attempting to pull.
Dallas also brought another twist to it. My car trailer has always served as my "garage" on the road. I never thought of removing the contents of the trailer (tools, supplies, nitrogen tanks, extra wheels and tires, fuel, etc) and storing them in the basement of the coach. This would literally remove thousands of pounds from the weight of the trailer, but it'll still come in around 6500#.
It's at this point I'm torn. My father-in-law has a 900# Featherlight open car trailer that he uses only to move around some small antique tractors. I'm seriously considering using that trailer to tow the car (total trailer weight will be 4100#) and storing all of my stuff in the coach. The only thing that wont fit is my tool box (roll away style). I'll have to buy a couple of chest style boxes and mount them on sliders of some sort. The time and effort of moving everything from the enclosed trailer to the coach basement will be considerable, but not impossible.
I believe I can get the tongue weight to less than 400 pounds, and with weight distribution bar I can get that to mid 200. That makes the stress levels very low for the coach. This solution should make everyone (nearly everyone) happy.
I'll still post pictures of my uber hitch when it's under way.
Mark
Tow hitch on a 4104 - this is what happens! :D
Make sure your insurance is up to date and do it your way. I won't comment on this issue other than to say all I pull behind my 4905 is a tow dolly with the car on that.
LarryH