Hi All
With the "cheap" price of diesel, I decided to fill my tank to the brim. But after doing so, the crazy engine won't start. It turns over like crazy without a fire. I checked the secondary fuel filter, completely full, which eliminates fuel from the equation. Very frustrating because it ran great just 1 week ago on 1/2 tank and now that the tank is full, no start.
Does anyone know if Prevost has an overfill cutoff built into the tank? I looked in the Prevost owners manual, the maintance manual and the detriot 8V92 book without finding it mentioned. Just trying to think of all possibilities. The block heater is on, the engine is toasty warm since it is 27 degrees and snowing all day. But no starting.
Rob
91 Lemirage XL
Missouri
i put just a minor squirt of ether into mine to start this morning. Did you try that? are you seeing any smoke, does it sound like occasional kicks, or just wasting battery juice? maybe just a touch more info would help some of the real experts.
i just know mine needed a little help. i had the block heater on for a couple hours yesterday before trying and just wouldn't fire. ether caught right up and on.
today a little warmer, but no block heater. again, just a quick squirt into the air filter and up she jumped.
Bob, is a DDEC or mechanical engine
good luck
Never saw a fuel overfill cutoff on the ones I worked on.Never even heard of such a thing on coaches.
IF your bus has DDEC (electronic engine controls) check the fuses and circuit breakers in the battery compartment (curbside, small door in front of drive axle). Let us know, can provide more help if needed.
If it did run, and now it doesn't, you might want to check to see if the engine shut down lever is stuck in the "Off" position on the governor.
Good luck!
Dallas
My 8-71 did the same. Mine lost prime. If you removed the filter you may need to reprime. I bought a 12v pump at auto store. Disconnect the fuel return ( the small one.) Pump fuel from fuel can thru both filters until it comes out the return line. Reconnect everything and try it. That worked on mine.
Hi Folks
I thought it was a lost prime situation. That is why I checked that first. The is an on/off valve to prevent loss of prime that I shut off before checking the filters. Filters completely full. So looks like fuel is not the issue.
I read the manual about the fuel cutoff. I checked that and it looks okay.
I had been messing in the fuse box so I did check the fuses, but alas, not that either as all are in the on position.
Sorry for not mentioning it, it is a DDEC.
I grew up on a farm and we used to use ether until I saw an engine explode after injecting some, certainly don't want to do that to my engine so No, I didn't try that. The engine just spins like crazy with good batts. No smoke of anykind. Not even anykind of indication like it might fire. It acts like it is fuel problem but I can't prove it given the full filters.
Thanks for the help. At least I got some ideas, which I have already checked and sounds like next step is to call in the high priced DD shop to see what they can do with it.
Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Hi Rob,
I would do as Dallas has said and check the shut down lever on the govener. Fully reset it by pulling on the lever.
Good Luck
Nick-
Rob,
I sympathise with your wanting to be safe with the engine. I think you are in the minority on the either phobia, however. It is made to start Ds and the label says Starting fluid and it is sold everywhere. I have no doubt that it can be misused and damage an engine. Maybe follow the directions on the can?
When in the USAF I was blessed with the collateral duty of "handling" the emergency D generator. It was never connected to the radar power panel but for a year I went out once a month and started that rascal. Rain or shine, hot or cold. There wasn't a single solitary fool on that mountain that had a clue about D's including me. That either gave me pause so instead of having one of my airmen risk it all I did the job. Lead from the front, right? So that pig never ever started 'WITHOUT" either....even in the hottest 80 degree weather. It also never failed to start WITH either. It would quit the moment you stopped squirting the either for the first couple minutes. Needed 2 big cans every time and I kept two cases for emergencies. From what I know now I had my life on the line and I think I suspected it back then as I sent all my men back in the Tower and had only one standby 30 feet away with a fire extinguisher. Never a problem.
Now lets hear how stupid I was and I suspect that that is the truth. Was 30 feet far enuff?
John
Now wait....did you say it used to start up just fine? Forget the either on this one but in the future????
Quote from: JohnEd on December 02, 2008, 06:53:21 PM
Rob,
It would quit the moment you stopped squirting the either for the first couple minutes. Needed 2 big cans every time and I kept two cases for emergencies.
John
when i said ether, i meant a 1/2 second squirt into the air intake, then walk over and hit the rear start button. i'm still on the first can i bought 2 years ago and it's a least 3/4 full.
John, i think we're lucky you're alive!!!
I said I had that "feeling" and I got all the "kids" out of harms way. I am lucky to have lived thru a lot of stuff I volunteered for let alone what I WAS ORDERED TO DO AGAINST MY WILL AND BETTER JUDGEMENT. (HIT THE CAPS KEY). Thanks for the "heads up!" though. Better late than never ever.
John the survivor
Rob,
If it is a DDEC, the fuel exiting the injectors is controlled by the DDEC. No white smoke while cranking means no fuel exiting the injectors. Since fuel goes from primary filter to fuel pump and then to secondary filter before heading to the injectors, it sounds like fuel is getting to the injectors. Sounds like it may be something with the DDEC?
Rob,
OK now that I know it is a DDEC, I can help ya! The shut down cylinder on the governor Dallas & Nick mention is not there on a DDEC, so that ain't it!
Now do ya wanna know for sure what it is before digging & looking for a the 2 12V in-line fuses ***SOMEWHERE*** between the batteries and the DDEC unit? Or do you wanna start at the batteries and check every lead, wire, connection, distribution panel, everything between the batteries and the DDEC unit itself on top of the engine?
OK first of I have never had to find them on a Prevost! But on the DDEC equipped SETRA's, MCI's, & 1 Eagle that I have dealt with (& I did have a DDEC Prevost that was hanging out recently for maintenance, but never needed to find the fuses on it, just had to be sure the 12V power was turned on above the batteries! and don't ask how I know that! LOL!) the DDEC's have all been 12V.
And on all but the Eagle (which was 12V anyway), the in-line fuses were on 2 lonely wires in the battery compartment. Now on the first SETRA we owned I had intermittent problems with these fuses until I replaced the fuse holder itself, then no problem!
On the Eagle I had the opportunity of working on there was a fuse in-line to the DDEC unit and it had been blown for "EVER" as the owner stated. "But hey that can't be the problem I wrapped it with a gum wrapper, and it's worked every since!" Yup you guessed it I took the dried up crispy funky foil paper out & stole a fuse out of the CB radio and walla it started right up! $100 service call over a piece of gum wrapper! (I didn't charge him for the fuse since I took it from his CB cord which was the ONLY glass fuse we could find!)
So somewhere your DDEC is not getting it's 12V or it has gone south itself!
Now every great once in a while my silly 60 series will crank like mad with no start I mean just out of the blue and very rarely happens, but it has happened at night, in the cold freezing snow, & a hot sunny day. But when it does it I grab a can of either and spray it on a count of 1-2-3 into the breather and then hit the rear start switch and it fires right up. And no problems for a long long time! I have looked and looked but not found the culprit here! I guess when it becomes a regular problem or I can't get it started then I'll track it down. But as irregular as it is I can't find it because it only happens when I don't have time to tear into it and find the issue!
Good luck and feel free to make a phone call to me or any other bus nut, (Sammy you listening since you are the PREVOST tech here! LOL!) before calling the high priced DD shop! Our prices are better and you'll learn more! LOL! FWIW ;D BK ;D
Rob,
Just a thought... I had start issues after my Eagle sat a while... I have a 6V92 in it... The outcome was - a stuck Skinner Valve (I think thats what its called) its the shut off operated by air. It needed some lubrication to get itto retract, things were fine after that. I'm no expert but I did alot of research to find the issue... Hopefully it's that easy.
John
Quote from: CindyandJohn on December 03, 2008, 09:07:28 AM
Rob,
Just a thought... I had start issues after my Eagle sat a while... I have a 6V92 in it... The outcome was - a stuck Skinner Valve (I think thats what its called) its the shut off operated by air. It needed some lubrication to get itto retract, things were fine after that. I'm no expert but I did alot of research to find the issue... Hopefully it's that easy.
John
John great thought and by all means thanks for sharing it with him. But since Rob's is a DDEC it is not the same, and doesn't use the skinner valves! FWIW ;D BK ;D
Rob, does the "check" and "stop" engine lights light up on your dash for 5 seconds and go out, when you first turn the master switch on?
This will tell us if DDEC is powering up.
Let me know if you have trouble locating the fuses or breakers for DDEC, I have a ton of schematics.
Thanks for the kind words BK.
Yes you and I have been around these beasts for quite some time,lol. :)
Ok I'm just an 8V71 mechanical guy. But even the DDEC engines have a mechanical pump between the primary and secondary filters; right? If so, I've seen the pump get air locked after changing filters or after sitting for a long time. Somtimes a combination of a little ether to make the engine go and cracking the line to the secondary filter simultaneously has worked for me to get V71 and V92 engines going. FWIW
Fred
Hello:
What happened to initiate the problem? you filled the tank. right was the tank empty when you did that or vvery nearly empty? If so then the problem could be an airlock and priming these beasts is a problem...
Check the threads for priming systems and priming pump stuff; however ifthe tank was half full then the problem could be bad fuel or bad stuff in the filters.. Not knowing how you checked the filters I can only surmise what happened.
If you checked the filters by pulling one off or disturbed the system then you have an airlock.
My inclination is to say try this :
If you pulled off a filter then take both filters off drain the fuel and refill with fresh fuel thereby eliminating the bad fuel . Then you must eliminate all the air from the system by using a priming pump to circulate the fuel betwn the filters, fuel pump and racks. once all the air is out of the system it will start if in fact the fuel system is the culprit.
if it runs for a short while then quits then you may have some bad fuel..
All this is supposition from the facts given. My advice is to check everything that you have done since the engine was running last . Somewhere in that sequence of events is a clue to the solution
regards and Happy bussin mike
Rob,
The DDEC engines are equipped with a low coolant sensor that will shut down the engine. It may be as simple as being low on radiator coolant or a bad low coolant sensor. This will allow it to crank over but not start. The low coolant sensor should be located in your radiator surge tank. Also check your oil pressure sender. The DDEC engines will shut down for three main reasons, low coolant, low oil pressure and hot engine.
Rob, I know that this is far fetched, but it is not possible that gasoline was pumped rather than diesel? I once had the good luck of having the wife pump gas into her vw diesel! Funny enough it was not Her fault as the delivery truck had filled the underground with the wrong fuel. You can figure out how many apology's I had to offer. John
Hi All
Thanks for all the ideas. Here, again, is what happened. The engine has always started within a few seconds for the past 3 years I have been working on the conversion every 2 weeks without fail. The tank was 1/2 full because every few months I would go over and get 10 gallons and put in fresh fuel. So no problems with this until, with the cheap diesel price, I filled the tank to the brim and then wallaugh, cranks like crazy with not even a sputter. It acted like a air lock or lost prime, so I dutifully shut off the fuel line valve before the primary filter thinking I would see a dry filter. What I found was a clean filter full of fuel. So then I moved on to the secondary filter, checked it, samething, full of fuel. At that point, I made sure the filters were topped up and reinstalled them. I reopened the fuel shutoff and tried again, still nothing. I may have an airlock but that would have had to present before I checked the fuel the last time.
Since the only thing I did was top the fuel tank, I thought maybe there was an overfill switch that I might have triggered by topping off the tank. So, I went to "da book" but didn't see on mentioned. Thats when i started asking you guys.
I did check for low coolant but the coolant was flushed 3 years ago and replaced with new coolant when I started working on it for the conversion. Full coolant level.
The check and stop lights come on and stay on. Normally they come on and when the engine starts, they go out. Them staying on didn't surprise me any.
Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Rob, do you have a diagnostic request switch ??, might be near battery cut off switch on dash, next to ignition switch. IF you do, turn on ignition, press and release the rocker switch. The check and stop engine lights will blink (flash) any trouble codes. Check telltale light is for inactive codes, Stop engine light is for active codes. Let me know what you get.
Hi Sammy
Nope, no diagnostic switch on the dash. There is a port in the rear breaker box but i don't have the unit to connect. Sorry.
Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Rob, take a look inside the electrical box on the streetside of your bus, just under drivers window.
Check to see if there might be a diagnostic switch in there. I know the H models have a switch on the dash, and early ones had a switch in front elec box for ATEC and DDEC. Worth a look. 8)
Hi All
I have checked both the primary and secondary filters, both completely full of fuel, so if I understand correctly, that eliminates the fuel issue.
When I turn on the key to start there is no light up of the start and check engine light Sammy mentioned at all. The only light that lights on the dash is the low oil pressure and both low air pressure lights. I reviewed the manual at least a dozen times and there are no ATEC and DDEC switches that I can find on the coach. There is no diagnostic request switch on the dash or in the street side electrical compartment. The only thing that looks anything like what you might be mentioning is what appears to be a diagnostic port in the rear fuse box over the engine. This is a flat connector that has 7 or 8 round holes for what appears to be a dignostic machine hookup.
Full engine coolant, full oil level.
Here is where it gets confusing to me. The book, Series 92 Service Manual from Detriot, doesn't mention a DDEC but it mentions an ECM and other electrical components and yet when I compare the pics in the book to what I have in the coach they don't match, I definately have a stop fuel lever on top of a flat plate above the ECM. There is another lever on the plate also that is connected to the throttle. The stop fuel lever is in what I believe to be the start position toward the rear of the coach against an air operated plunger. I would like to believe that I have a DDEC but I am questioning that now given not all the things are there and somethings that shouldn't be there, like a fuel cutoff lever, are there. I have looked everywhere for any fuses that might be for a DDEC with no luck.
I tried the starting ether at least 4 or 5 times. The engine attempts to start but as soon as the ether runs out it quits.
I am still looking for things to check. Any more help guys? This started with topping off the tank from 1/2 tank to a full tank with diesel.
Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
If ether gets it going for a little, then the problem is fuel supply. Merely because the filters are full, does not mean it is getting fuel. It is even possible that the filters are clogged (sorry, I do not remember if you have already checked that). There could be all sorts of things with your setup that I am not familiar with that may cut the fuel supply. Those could be things to bypass one by one. However, I would try to make sure that you have not somehow lost prime. Although I have not done it, I am sure that there are those here that could tell you how to pump fuel through the system using a garden spray setup. Another thing to be looking for is a loose fitting or a simple crack in the fuel lines. If it sucking air from somewhere, it will not start. The mighty DD can be laid low by little more than a pin hole.
My H model has a toggle switch for checking codes using the yellow CEL and red SEL if one doesn't have a pro-link. It is located outside, drivers side under drivers window in a compartment that also has the port for testing using the pro-link.
Now my Prevost book says, to start, you turn on ignition switch to "ON" and both CEL and SEL should light up. Stay lit for approx. 3-5 seconds which is allowing the ECM to do a self diagnostic test. When they go out, it is safe to start the engine. If you have any fault codes, the CEL (yellow) light will come back on. If you have major faults as in low coolant, low oil, or overheating, the SEL (red) will come on and about 3-5 seconds later the engine will shut down.
If all you did was fill the tank, it kind of sounds like an air lock, OR what happened to me once was a blown fuse to the ECM. This fuse on mine is hard wired directly to the start batteries. It is a blade type fuse that actually lays on top of the batteries in a rubber housing with a cover that completely conceals the fuse. You may want to check there and see what you have if any at all! Other than that, when you say it tries to start with ether but quits, makes me think it's fuel related rather than electronic. Could the fuel pump gone bad as a coincidence?
Ace
I might add too that don't rule out the possibility of a rubber fuel line collapsing. I have seen them get really soft and when you try to start the engine, the hose would actually close itself off. To look at it, you couldn't tell because it was the inside lining that was actually collapsing not the outside! That would make for fuel not going to where it was needed!
Ace
Ok, I will get a lot of flak over this suggestion, I know that right now..
If I had to say something dumb like there is an air bubble in the fuel pump
causing the "gear" pump to fail to start moving fuel from the primary to
secondary filters. I might have to run for cover.
However, I have been through these nightmares before... Even though you have
fuel in the lines and filters, It only takes a small air bubble to make a gear driven
detroit fuel pump to fail to move fuel.
Now.... What I did was on my MCI I have a fitting on the secondary filter. That is an old a/c fitting to which I attach a suction pump to pull fuel through the primary and pump and into the secondary filter.
( Those of you that have NJT buses probably still have those same fittings. )
( Old R-12 a/c hoses fit them. )
You have to clear the air out of the pump and primary filter "FIRST" then you should be able to get going unless something is goofed up in the computer keeping the fuel cut off.
Even those little throw away portable air pumps have sometimes a suction port on them or can be rigged up with one. You only need a vacuum enough to pull bubble-free air out of the filter and pump lines.
But then again, If that isn't the problem then keep guessing. a Detroit will run on ether and air alone no matter what the computer is saying or doing so that does not necesarily say the problem is limited to the fuel supply. eliminate that first...
Dave....
Quote from: Skykingrob on December 15, 2008, 06:46:14 PM
Hi All
I have checked both the primary and secondary filters, both completely full of fuel, so if I understand correctly, that eliminates the fuel issue.
When I turn on the key to start there is no light up of the start and check engine light Sammy mentioned at all. The only light that lights on the dash is the low oil pressure and both low air pressure lights. I reviewed the manual at least a dozen times and there are no ATEC and DDEC switches that I can find on the coach. There is no diagnostic request switch on the dash or in the street side electrical compartment. The only thing that looks anything like what you might be mentioning is what appears to be a diagnostic port in the rear fuse box over the engine. This is a flat connector that has 7 or 8 round holes for what appears to be a dignostic machine hookup.
Full engine coolant, full oil level.
Here is where it gets confusing to me. The book, Series 92 Service Manual from Detriot, doesn't mention a DDEC but it mentions an ECM and other electrical components and yet when I compare the pics in the book to what I have in the coach they don't match, I definately have a stop fuel lever on top of a flat plate above the ECM. There is another lever on the plate also that is connected to the throttle. The stop fuel lever is in what I believe to be the start position toward the rear of the coach against an air operated plunger. I would like to believe that I have a DDEC but I am questioning that now given not all the things are there and somethings that shouldn't be there, like a fuel cutoff lever, are there. I have looked everywhere for any fuses that might be for a DDEC with no luck.
I tried the starting ether at least 4 or 5 times. The engine attempts to start but as soon as the ether runs out it quits.
I am still looking for things to check. Any more help guys? This started with topping off the tank from 1/2 tank to a full tank with diesel.
Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Rob I believe you have just led me to the problem! OK now I am not positive but I am sure I know the problem as in been there, done that and felt really silly once it was discovered what had happened! But at the same time relieved it didn't cost ANY $ to fix! I left my cell phone # in a PM for you call me and we'll have you running in the morning with in minutes! Afterwords I'll let you confirm what it wuz! (if ya wanna take the ribbing! That is! LOL! ;D)
;D BK ;D
Boy BK, you can sure take the fun out of good laugh. come on now and let us in on that silly little thing you experience with your bus. You know my Doctor said I should aways start the day off with a good laugh. And you would be adding to collective knowledge of the bus community.
WVaNative
Rob, I need pictures, 4th digit and last 8 digits of your VIN to provide anymore help.
That will let me know what you have. Too much contradicting info right now. Don't want to steer you in wrong direction.
If DDEC engine, might be just a tripped breaker for the igntion circuit to ECM - 8amp.
That could be in battery compartment or in engine compartment electrical box.
IF it's not DDEC, that's another story......
Make sure your rear run and rear start switches are in correct position too.
I notice that this very active thread went dead after BK's cryptic post referring to a secret solution. Aside from being curious and thinking that knowledge of the cure may be useful to others in the future, I believe that earnest participants in seeking the solution have something of a right to know. What was it?
Don't ask me I been sitting by the phone for days waiting to hear it ring!
But I can tell you that from the new description of the governor box, throttle lever, shut down cylinder, and no DDEC unit there I can BET MY SETRA it ain't a DDEC!
Now then with all that said we had a bus that had a fresh re-manned engine in it that ALWAYS fired before a full revolution of the engine. But one day I came up on a driver cranking and cranking it. SO I asked what he was doing and he said "trying to get this thing to start, I can tell it wants too but it just won't do it!"
So first thing I did was made him go up to the front and check the switches and such. Then I tried starting it from the rear. That's when I noticed that even with NO AIR the stop cylinder was extended and it wasn't allowing it to get any fuel! So I went in the shop and grabbed a small hammer, a screw driver, and a 3/8" wrench. I was going to take the screws holding the cylinder out and remove the cylinder, (most of the time the screw heads are "screwed up" and have to be broken off, which is where the hammer comes in handy along with the screw driver). But for some reason I tapped the cylinder with the hammer and could tell it was in a tight bind, not pressurized (duh no air!), but "stuck". So I took the screw driver and put it against the shut down lever and tapped it with the hammer and "walla the cylinder released the so did the lever!"
This time I barely touched the rear start switch and VRRRRROOOOOOM just like it should! SO I figured that is what happened to Rob's, but I have not yet had a chance to talk to him and tell him what to look for to find out if it is the problem or not.
So the wait continues! FWIW ;D BK ;D
I have really been wondering what the out come was! Anybody else curious? ;D BK ;D
I am wondering too??? What happened??? If he had a rear control panel, like on our DL3 with a S60, I would have suspected the engine run switch to be in the off position. I have done this before...Cranking, Cranking, Cranking...Nothing...Nothing, and then realize that the switch is off in the back ;D. It has the exact same symptoms that Rob described.
BK, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you are right on the problem...Good job. No if he would only read the thread... ;D ;D ;D
God bless,
John
Hi All
Sorry for not writing sooner but there were reasons. My computer crashed the next day, then had unexpected family death, then Christmas, so I haven't been able to write until now. BK, I did get your message. and have recorded the number. I will call now I have read your message.
I thought it might be fuel so I replaced the filters, nothing. On the side of my secondary filter there is an air fitting like a tire valve stem but there is nothing on the primary filter. I have checked all the fuses I have found, all breakers, nothing wrong. I did mess up the rear start switch one other time but that is not what is wrong this time.
Sammy, I will get the numbers and get back to you.
Thanks to everyone trying to help, please don't give up just yet.
Rob
Nonstarting 91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Rob,
Sorry to hear about the death in your family. Keep us posted on what it going on.
God bless,
John
Hi All
I finally have a running engine. And no, it was none of the things anyone suggested. And yes, this could be a learning experience for many. So, here is the whole history and the solution.
The coach run just two weeks before the problem started. With the diesel price dropping, I decided to top off the tank. It had a 1/2 tank and so at $2.99 per gallon, I topped the tank thinking I was smart. Silly me, I didn't expect diesel to still go lower, now it's $2.19 per gallon at the local truck stop. Oh well!
The next day after topping the tank I decided to go for a short run. The engine had always turned over 3 or 4 times and fired off with no problems, but not this time. I checked the usual things. I unscrewed the fuel filters and they were full. I didn't remove or replace since they were full, which was a mistake as you will see later. I checked the rear start switch, nope it was in the right position. I checked to make sure the air filter was okay and air flow wasn't blocked, no birds or wasp nests, etc. I checked oil and coolant level, just fine. Frustrated, I went to the factory book to start reading and posted a message on the board hoping to tap into the wealth of information available here. The factory manual said the engine was a DDEC, hence my response to the board that it was a DDEC. Based on information I got from the board, I looked high and low for fuses for the DDEC. I looked for the code indicator lights for the DDEC. I couldn't find anything anywhere, more frustration. Then my stinking computer crashed. I took it to the repair place and was played daily with the repair guy saying it will be ready tomorrow then tomorrow, so on and so forth. Then 3 days before Christmas, I got a call that a close uncle had died unexpectedly in surgery. So I was off the board for several days dealing with computer failure, death and Christmas.
I got home early evening December 28 and posted. I read both BK and Sammys message as well as many who were frustrated that they hadn't heard what the problem was that prevented the start. I called BK that evening and we were able to determine, before his cell phone battery went dead, that the engine wasn't a DDEC. BKs' inside joke was the skinner valve was surely stuck and causing the fuel cutof lever to open and cutof fuel. Nope, the valve was working like it should, the fuel cutof was in the start position. The next day, I lowered a hose into the fuel filler and drained out some of the diesel to eliminate the question if there was a fuel overfull switch. The engine cranked and cranked but no start. Nope there is no fuel overfill switch. Still got the problem. I removed a fitting in the top of the fuel tank then installed a tire valve stem and pressured the tank to 65 pounds. Boy did I have fuel flowing to the primary filter. Tried to start again, nothing. I checked the secondary filter, no fuel free flowing there but, of course, it is after the fuel pump, another clue for ya! I replaced the primary filter, still won't start. I replaced the secondary filter, still won't start. BK had told me a trick he has used several times for starting the engine buy using an old fashion dish soap bottle to inject fuel through a fitting in the side of the secondary filter. I did and the engine would start and run while I pressure fed the fuel to it. As soon as I let the pressure off, it would die. At least I knew the engine would run and I just needed to keep tracing out the problem. I removed the newly installed primary filter, drained the fuel from it and filled it with off road red dye diesel and reinstalled. I cranked the engine several different times for 20-30 seconds at a time hoping that the red dye would end up in the secondary filter. It never did. So, I either had an air lock from the primary filter to the fuel pump or a fuel pump problem. With the pressure from the tank at 65 pounds, I didn't think I had an air lock. On a whem, nothing else could explain it, I emptied the fuel from the old primary and secondary filter. I got black gunk from the primary filter. I emptied the secondary filter expecting to find thick black gunk and wallah, there was the clue I didn't know I had until I emptied the old secondary filter, metal shavings. I removed the fuel pump to check it out. The center shaft of the pump is supposed to turn roller like devices to pump fuel. The shaft was turning like it should but with metal shavings in the secondary filter, there had to be an internal pump problem I couldn't see from the outside. I got a kit from the local DD dealer to overhaul the pump. The shaft was heavily worn and gouged from spinning and none of the rollers moved when the shaft moved. I replaced the overhauled fuel pump and tried again. This time it started like it always had. Eureka, back in business!!
Here are some "morals of the story" I learned along the way. The factory manuals don't always tell the truth about what you have. I will change the fuel filters sooner in the future not just loosen to see if they are full. And most importantly, I will drain the old filters just to see if there are any clues I should know about.
Thanks to all who openly shared trouble shooting/problem solving ideas. While it wasn't any of the things directly suggested by the board, I can honestly say I learned alot from this experience not only from the board but also digging through the various steps of what makes the engine I have run.
Rob
Running 91 8V92 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Congratulations! It's great to hear that you got it going!
Also I am sorry I didn't call you back after I got my phone charged up, but I sorta got side tracked & forgot. Opps!
Glad after all that that it was something as simple as all that! LOL! ;D BK ;D
I disagree about not getting the right answer here. There are several posts that suggest it had to do with fuel supply. There was an assumption that you had a working fuel pump, but even with a small car, with a fuel problem the fuel pump is one thing to check.
Rob,
That's great that you are up an running. Thanks for the post. Some of those fuel issues can be really tough.
BTW Where are you in Missouri? I was just curious.
God bless,
John
Rob, happy to hear you got it running again. :)
Hi All
Lin, I guess maybe I am splitting hairs. If you look at the last paragraph in my post, you will see that I said "things directly suggested by the board". There is no argument that fuel was mentioned several times. And yes, I would have assumed a working fuel pump but that was not the case. I learned, again, a valuable lession; go into these things with a open mind, no preconceptions and check everything. My intent was not to anger anyone on the board but to make it a learning experience for everyone, not just me.
BK, it was simple but man the labor cost involved would have been out of sight because it meant checking and double checking all the variables. Clearly a trained mechanic would have done it faster but it probably took me about 10 hours over several days as I thought through the various permatations of the fuel system. Cost of the parts was only $150.
John, I live in Ozark, just south of Springfield, only 2 miles from Lamberts, home of the famous "throwed rolls".
Thanks again to everyone.
Rob
91 LeMirage XL
Missouri
Rob,
I appreciate you getting back with the correct answer. You are definitely right about the lesson. This one is sort of the KISS rule, "If it acts like a bad fuel pump, it could be a bad fuel pump." I have often ignored the simplest solution looking for something more exotic and need to be reminded. I was just pointing out that the board was close if not directly on.
Very interesting thread. I had always noticed that fuel pumps hardly ever come up when trouble shooting DD 2 strokes. I kind of thought that they were an almost never fail design, seeing as they were impellers and no one seemed to have problems with them. Since my previous experience is with old gas vehicles I am very used to checking FP output as step 2 after checking for spark. Also nice to hear you got it all done yourself, as a dyed in the wool DIYer it is always heartening to see someone else get to the bottom of a no start. Thanks for the update, no start threads are always the ones I read most carefully, all the trouble shooting suggestions can be chaotic but the final solution is usually pretty simple and reminds me to keep it simple when trouble shooting.